Aller au contenu

Photo

An Open Letter to David Gaider and Bioware


275 réponses à ce sujet

#26
MrTijger

MrTijger
  • Members
  • 752 messages

marshalleck wrote...

Interesting post. I share your sentiment in appreciating and respecting Bioware and especially David Gaider for his candid response to the "controversy." I hardly think it really qualifies as a controversy myself, just a few malcontents on a forum presuming to speak for a huge demographic to which I personally belong, although I never consented to their representation nor do I share any of their beliefs.

Time will tell if the writing staff stick to their guns in this regard, but I'm hopeful they will and to that end I will give them credit where credit is due, and it is certainly due in this case. Privilege is a powerful and subtle force in any culture and I applaud David's eloquent expose of it and his team's decision on how to handle it. 


Heh, given Gaider's rather caustic response to the homophobe I'd say he has zero intention of scrapping any gay romance options in DA as long as he is responsible for it.
It hasnt caused any media backlash (surprising, really, given Fox willingness with ME 1 to go on the attack over nothing) and the few people that really object, well..I doubt anyone will miss those.

#27
fchopin

fchopin
  • Members
  • 5 070 messages
@not so anon...

I am happy that Bioware helped you in your life and have no problem with that.

I can not agree with you on the romance options depending what gender you play as for me it makes companions soulless. I have no problem if they make characters gay or whatever direction they would like to take but i like my romance options to be the same whatever gender i pick for my character.

I thought they did it much better in DAO as we knew what each character was, either one way or both, it makes characters more alive and more unique.

It would be nice if we had 10 choices for all people depending what they like but it makes characters more restricted on what they say and how they behave. I found all the romance options very restricted and boring in DA2 for the reason i stated.

No disrespect to your opinion as i understand what you say.

#28
Darkest Dreamer

Darkest Dreamer
  • Members
  • 314 messages

fchopin wrote...

I can not agree with you on the romance options depending what gender you play as for me it makes companions soulless.


Wow... You put a lot of emphasis on sexual orientation. You make it sound as if a character's entire personality (nay, very being) revolves around their orientation.

#29
fchopin

fchopin
  • Members
  • 5 070 messages

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

Wow... You put a lot of emphasis on sexual orientation. You make it sound as if a character's entire personality (nay, very being) revolves around their orientation.



Are you saying you disagree?
 
What i said is my opinion you don't have to agree with it.

#30
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 673 messages
Good post though I see no reason why make alternative account for that.

#31
DraCZeQQ

DraCZeQQ
  • Members
  • 1 075 messages
I would not worry about Girl / Girl hot action, since its more for the *Forever Alone* players then for queer ones ;)

#32
naruhodo

naruhodo
  • Members
  • 18 messages

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I can not agree with you on the romance options depending what gender you play as for me it makes companions soulless.


Wow... You put a lot of emphasis on sexual orientation. You make it sound as if a character's entire personality (nay, very being) revolves around their orientation.


I understand what fchopin means; s/he doesn't have a problem with queer characters, they just don't like how it diminishes the immersion of the game when you see how characters change artificially depending on what kind of Hawke you play.

I'm still playing through DA:O and all it's lovely expansions, and I can agree as far as the fact that I like having more set-in-stone characters with unique characteristics. It makes them feel more alive.

In DA:O they don't change their personal characteristics based on who your main character is and their decisions; instead they react differently depending on who your character is and your decisions and that feels more realistic/natural.

I've read this complaint, about DA2's characters seeming more artificial because of the way they are tailored to your Hawke, several times from different sources and it seems like a legit concern. Of course, as fchopin says, it's only an opinion and there are also many gamers who don't mind this part of DA2 at all.

I haven't had the pleasure of playing DA2 yet, so I'm still not totally sure where I stand on this issue though!

(/end of derailment)

Back to the OP, I want to thank you so much for pointing out the ways that LGB visibility in media can really, truly make a difference for people. I am a gay gamer as well and I have to agree that Bioware's courage and foresight to include options for even it's minority fans is truly a great thing!

Modifié par naruhodo, 04 avril 2011 - 11:53 .


#33
Darkest Dreamer

Darkest Dreamer
  • Members
  • 314 messages

fchopin wrote...

Are you saying you disagree?
 
What i said is my opinion you don't have to agree with it.


Posted Image

That was a pretty random thing to say. I really wasn't under the impression I had to... at all.

#34
dewcrowe

dewcrowe
  • Members
  • 155 messages
When I first opened this topic I was worried about some "long time bioware fan" and their disappointment. I was pleased to find this quite different. awesome post.

#35
Zeratul20

Zeratul20
  • Members
  • 699 messages
@OP (not so anon): Good for you. :) I hope you never feel the need to hide who you are. (There's really little more for me to add to that.)

#36
cloudwalker

cloudwalker
  • Members
  • 23 messages
Big up to the OP.

#37
CaimDark

CaimDark
  • Members
  • 148 messages
This is amazing, to think that a game could have such an important impact on someone's life. I'm sure the writers appreciate hearing about this, I know I would. Kudos to you!

#38
goering

goering
  • Members
  • 86 messages
I too hope Bioware will be able to continue it's games. DA2 is a piece of crap and it has numerous instances of bad storytelling and writing ... but the gay parts were not one of them.

If anything, the gay romances didn't seem "gay enough", being nearly identical to the traditional ones. Well, perhaps it takes a gay writer to get that right and I don't know if Bioware has those, nor do I care.

So. Who'd ya romance? :)

#39
Benevolent Walnut

Benevolent Walnut
  • Members
  • 90 messages
OP: I agree with you wholeheartedly!

#40
not so anon

not so anon
  • Members
  • 7 messages

DeathStride wrote...

That's pretty awesome(FLBW) that a videogame like DA helped you with such an important part of your life, definitely going to mention this when people are bashing videogames for all the "bad things" they make people do. Sorry, I don't mean to sound callous and come in here just to tell you I'm going to use your personal life for my own gain or something- I truly am happy for you :wizard:

I completely agree that Bioware should keep up the trend of including non-hetero relationship options in their games and in general keep moving forward by abandoning the "norms" and the "accepted." That being said, I really would rather they do it the way they did in Origins where each person swung a certain way, they weren't just blank slates that were, as I saw one poster in these forums put it, "Hawke-sexuals."

The blank-slate category is exclusively designated for the main character so that each player can see themselves in him/her and make the character into what they imagine. The party-member/companions should be the exact opposite- they should be very carefully crafted and well defined characters that each have their own flavor of backstory and personality. By making the DA2 companions be whatever sexual orientation you wanted them to be, it makes the entire experience more bland, more one-size-fits-all generic stuff.

So if they want to make someone gay? make them gay. If they want someone to be straight, make them straight as a ruler. If they want someone BI, that's absolutely fine, but don't make them these bland/generic characters that'll just mold to whatever the player wants- that's the role of the player character.

Thoughts?



You know I thought about your question for a while. On the one hand, I do think that some people who have complained have done so out of discomfort or hatred, regardless of whether it's been overt or cloaked under other reasons. At the same time, there are others who, like yourself, have complained from a storytelling perspective. I certainlty can't give an opinion on how DA 2 feels to play for all queer gamers out there, nor would I try, but I can tell you how it felt for me.

First off, as in Dragon Age: Origins it felt good going into the game knowing already that there was going to be an option for me as a gay girl playing a female Hawke. I did not actually know, at the time I started playing the game, that all of the romance-able female characters were available to romanced by my Hawke. I sort of assumed that it would be like DA:O. There would be a bisexual character, and a straight character, and that was that. And if I happened to like the straight character more than the bisexual one I was just going to have to deal and accept being shoved into my niche. If I wanted a gay romance, past game experiences had told me, I wasn't going to have a choice of partner.

But then I played the game. And I of course romanced Isabella first, because it seemed like the only option. I actually remember the moment when I realized I had another option. I was running around the Wounded Coast area of the map with a party, including Merrill. My companions started background chatter. And there was dialogue between Merrill and Isabella. I don't completely remember the exchange, but I do know that Merill said something about Hawke being attractive, Isabella told her to keep it to herself, and Merill said something like "I'd rather keep it with her..."

It was sort of like a record screeched to a halt. "Whoa!" I thought. "Wait.... you mean that Merrill....... really? Also? Oooh!" so the next time I was back in the city you better believe I went to see if Merrill was actually romanceable, and was quite happy to find out that she was.

The idea that Merill and Isabella could both be romanced by a male Hawke has never bothered me. Because in my world, male Hawke doesn't exist. Hawke is a female. Throughout all my playthroughs this is and will be the case. So while I understand some people feeling like the fludity of characters sexuality in reaction to different gendered Hawke is unrealistic or takes away from the storytelling, it is a non-issue to me. I like having choice as a gay player, rather than being pigeonholed because statistics in the real world deem it so. Hope that answers your question.

#41
DamnThoseDisplayNames

DamnThoseDisplayNames
  • Members
  • 547 messages
I know it can sound harsh, but projecting your intimate problems on game and oversocialising them that way is a pretty pathetic way of enjoying your games.
Games are just games, they can bring up some problems in human society, but they by no means can "do justice" for someone with those problems. Especially if a game consists solidly of smashing people's heads with a large hammer.

Please, people, your sexuality is an intimate and important thing of what makes you how, don't say you reshaped your views on it because Bioware accepted bisexuality as a way of saving scripting and writing time in their game.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 04 avril 2011 - 04:59 .


#42
DragonAgePoo

DragonAgePoo
  • Members
  • 12 messages
:ph34r:[spam comments removed]:ph34r:

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 avril 2011 - 06:03 .


#43
not so anon

not so anon
  • Members
  • 7 messages

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I know it can sound harsh, but projecting your intimate problems on game and oversocialising them that way is a pretty pathetic way of enjoying your games.
Games are just games, they can bring up some problems in human society, but they by no means can "do justice" for someone with those problems. Especially if a game consists solidly of smashing people's heads with a large hammer.

Please, people, your sexuality is an intimate and important thing of what makes you how, don't say you reshaped your views on it because Bioware accepted bisexuality as a way of saving scripting and writing time in their game.


Reshaped my views? Heh, no. I was always gay. All the wonderful writing in the world on the part of BioWare could not have made me as such, just as it would be unable to make me straight. But the coming out process is often a difficult one. Those who have not gone through it really can't fully understand that. It's not your fault. It's not even something that I fully comprehended until going through it.

So what BioWare did in Dragon Age (and, as I suspect, other forms of LGBT media visability do for others) wasn't to change who I was. No, it was just something that helped make me more comfortable with who I was at a time when I needed it, and I know that to be the case even if you don't believe me.

#44
Darkest Dreamer

Darkest Dreamer
  • Members
  • 314 messages

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I know it can sound harsh, but projecting your intimate problems on game and oversocialising them that way is a pretty pathetic way of enjoying your games.
Games are just games, they can bring up some problems in human society, but they by no means can "do justice" for someone with those problems. Especially if a game consists solidly of smashing people's heads with a large hammer.

Please, people, your sexuality is an intimate and important thing of what makes you how, don't say you reshaped your views on it because Bioware accepted bisexuality as a way of saving scripting and writing time in their game.


Games, like any form of media, art, or entertainment, certainly are possible at shaping lives. They can carry strong messages. It's not pathetic to draw ideas, emotion or inspiration from such work. Try show a little empathy before throwing insults.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 05:24 .


#45
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
I'm very happy for you, whomever you truly are. I was a bit unsure about this myself before, but I was similarly joyous about Merrill being fem-romanceable, and this victory gladdens me greatly.

#46
Drogo45

Drogo45
  • Members
  • 456 messages
Open letters are superfluous in an online context.

#47
DamnThoseDisplayNames

DamnThoseDisplayNames
  • Members
  • 547 messages

No, it was just something that helped make me more comfortable with who I was at a time when I needed it

I think I understand. Still, stepping into the light with a confession that Bioware should enclude gay, lesbian or bisexual characters in their games just to make your personal gaming more comfortable, and because people with some personal issues can be made more comfortable playing them, seems like a motive above my comprehension. At least from my views on game design.

They can carry strong messages.

Sure they can, if they're intended that way. If a game is made to help people with different sexualities to come up with themselves and make them happier, it would be a decent cause. But what messages both DA games carry about that? That lesbians are sneaky redheads and bi's only are born in dirty brothels? Or that you can change someones orientation if you give them enough olive palms?
And that you should murder hundreds of waves of diffirenet species to make your mind about who you really love, huh?

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 04 avril 2011 - 05:53 .


#48
Darkest Dreamer

Darkest Dreamer
  • Members
  • 314 messages

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Sure they can, if they're intended that way.

 
Not true. There have been plenty of cases where the message, emotion, etc, depicted was unintentional.

And nitpicking (only to sensationlize those picks) hardly helps your case, they only show your lack of objectivity. I'm not here to debate you on how deep (or not) Dragon Age is, or what message it may carry, I simply wanted to ask that you show a little more empathy. Anything more would be derailing the topic.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 06:07 .


#49
Stanley Woo

Stanley Woo
  • BioWare Employees
  • 8 368 messages
Thanks for the great post, not so anon. I'm glad that BioWare helped, however peripherally, in your decision, and I hope you have some awesome friends and family who also support you as the folks in this thread have.

#50
DamnThoseDisplayNames

DamnThoseDisplayNames
  • Members
  • 547 messages

There have been plenty of cases where the message, emotion, etc, depicted was unintentional.

Umm, unintentional message could't be carried by, because it was't there from the beginning.

I simply wanted to ask that you show a little more empathy.

Of course.. MOM.