275 réponses à ce sujet

[skunkdoctor]

BeljoraDien wrote...

But... there hasn't been a gay BioWare character since Juhani in KotOR. All they're doing is half-assedly tacking on same-sex romance to an already written straight relationship. It's just yet another example of laziness and recycling; why should it be applauded?

I'm not clear on why more options are an example of laziness and recycling. Also, why does a gay relationship being not so different from a heterosexual relationship = tacking on same-sex romance?

[BeljoraDien]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...
Certantly not all relationships end with bed so easely as they do in this game, don't you think that Bioware can do better than japanese dating sim?

Man, most dating sims have like a 100+ pages of dialogue and relationship development before the sex. BW could learn from dating sims.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Man, most dating sims have like a 100+ pages of dialogue and relationship development before the sex. BW could learn from dating sims.

Yeah, that thought came to me a bit later, too. I take my words back on that one, at least for dating sims well done, not those from the early 90ies.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 04 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[skunkdoctor]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

skunkdoctor, PC does not shape a story in this game (just try to ignore some quests which your Hawke perhaps would't like to be involved in - you'r see how much unexplained running and fetching you must do because "Bartrand still needs some time to prepare expedition"), but he shapes personalities of his companions with a push of a button at the beginning.
Also, your taste for romances is curious. Certantly not all relationships end with bed so easely as they do in this game, don't you think that Bioware can do better than japanese dating sim? Apart from Aveline, hawkesexuality seems to be a force so overwhelming that it makes one doubt reality of the game.

As far as my taste for romance goes, I am happily married and heterosexual, and I don't want to spend a lot of effort in a virtual relationship, more have funny flirting and lots of gratuitous sex. Hope that clears that up. I think there is a lot of legitimate criticism regarding DA2 obviously, I just do not think that this is one of them. It doesn't ruin the believability of the game, because again nobody is bi if you take the playthrough as a single entity( which everyone seems to have a problem doing).

[BeljoraDien]

skunkdoctor wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

But... there hasn't been a gay BioWare character since Juhani in KotOR. All they're doing is half-assedly tacking on same-sex romance to an already written straight relationship. It's just yet another example of laziness and recycling; why should it be applauded?

I'm not clear on why more options are an example of laziness and recycling. Also, why does a gay relationship being not so different from a heterosexual relationship = tacking on same-sex romance?

I'm trying to come up with an answer for you, but I'm not sure what needs explaining there... It would have been difficult for them to develop an actual gay character, so they merely disabled sex-checking in relationship dialogue.

I guess my hang up is that I don't find it forward thinking at all... I've played many games that have actual gay characters... and you have to deal with them whether you're straight or not... This magical toggle where, if you're straight, you don't have to have any gay friends is actually very backwards thinking to me. Also, it plays into the idea that people have a choice as to their sexual orientation.

[catofnine]

not so anon: I admire your courage in being true to who you are. Meaningful art, literature, films and videogames etc usually have certain properties that would make you take a step back and reflect on the goings on in your life or challenge certain notions that you've held in your head. I'm glad to hear you found something that did just that, and I wish you all the best.

@Bioware: Thank you for having the guts to make inclusive games. It's the one of the reasons why I buy your games...along with telling good stories and crafting interesting characters. Also, spacebabes. You guys make the best spacebabes.

[Gamer790]

Excellent post Ms. not so anon. Congratulations on being able to open up. I'm glad to hear that its improved your life.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

As far as my taste for romance goes, I am happily married and heterosexual, and I don't want to spend a lot of effort in a virtual relationship, more have funny flirting and lots of gratuitous sex.

I'm happy for you, but I believe you kinda miss that whole roleplaying thing if you just want a lot of easy sex and funny banters, so we don't have common views to talk about.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 04 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Tirigon]

LooksLikeTrouble wrote...

Isnt David Gaider that forum trolling writer whose quotes from this forum are circulating the internet and making Bioware out to look like a joke? Why would anyone write a letter to him?

No, he´s the awesome writer who not only created (at least) 2 great novels and was lead writer on one of the best games ever, but also is responsible for BioWare still having a positive image in spite of releasing DA2:police:

[skunkdoctor]

BeljoraDien wrote...

skunkdoctor wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

But... there hasn't been a gay BioWare character since Juhani in KotOR. All they're doing is half-assedly tacking on same-sex romance to an already written straight relationship. It's just yet another example of laziness and recycling; why should it be applauded?

I'm not clear on why more options are an example of laziness and recycling. Also, why does a gay relationship being not so different from a heterosexual relationship = tacking on same-sex romance?

I'm trying to come up with an answer for you, but I'm not sure what needs explaining there... It would have been difficult for them to develop an actual gay character, so they merely disabled sex-checking in relationship dialogue.

I guess my hang up is that I don't find it forward thinking at all... I've played many games that have actual gay characters... and you have to deal with them whether you're straight or not... This magical toggle where, if you're straight, you don't have to have any gay friends is actually very backwards thinking to me. Also, it plays into the idea that people have a choice as to their sexual orientation.

Fair enough points, but I think it comes down to your ability to shape the canon of the world vs. having "believable" companions, the staic nature of the world you're interacting with vs. it's reaction to you. I'm not sure it is a step backwards, because in the long run the next game's canon is affected by your decisions in the previous. Is it not good then to be able to have more options, or is it just laziness? Also, I don't think it plays into the idea that people have a choice at all, it is simply about giving you, the PC choices. If people had a choice about who they were attracted to, everyone would be getting laid.

[Akka le Vil]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

If they allow it but it still isn't their entire being or personality which is what the post you replied to was arguing against.

Get out of the binary mode if you're trying to talk about the inherently subtle subjects of believability, immersion and character's depth and credibility.

skunkdoctor wrote...

That's the problem with this argument. They aren't bi (with the exception of Isabella seemingly) unless you are talking about multiple playthroughs and not treating a playthrough as a single entity. And even then, mages blasting raiders in front of templars is a serious immersion problem, 4 people being bi or just being attracted to you because you are friggin awesome is not.

Hello, nearly everyone in my party is romanceable, isn't it enough to feel something isn't natural here, even during the first playthrough ?

And your argument still doesn't hold water, because I really don't see why we should restrict our view to only one playthrough. Immersion comes from believable context (character, setting, whatever), and seeing companions being actually not themselves but dependent on the player is precisely one of the two problems (the other being "everyone's hot for Hawke").

OnionXI wrote...

I don't mind homosexual romance options but I don't like all the options having a subjective sexuality. For one,
it's not very believable and it also has an impact on a character's identity.

Exactly.
But it seems that such obvious facts are extremely difficult for cruder minds to get.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 04 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[Akka le Vil]

BeljoraDien wrote...

But... there hasn't been a gay BioWare character since Juhani in KotOR. All they're doing is half-assedly tacking on same-sex romance to an already written straight relationship. It's just yet another example of laziness and recycling; why should it be applauded?

Well, actually there was Sky as a gay romance in Jade Empire, and Liara as a bi in Mass Effect.
Though it happens that it precisely reinforce the point, because in each case it was actually part of the character and the story, and not just a bland and impersonnal "open option".

[Darkest Dreamer]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Get
out of the binary mode if you're trying to talk about the inherently
subtle subjects of believability, immersion and character's depth and
credibility.

...

I'm not in "binary mode" but was rather expressing my amazement on the extreme stance taken by fchopin in that comment. Go and lecture him if that's what you're so averse to.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[Akka le Vil]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

I'm not in "binary mode" but was rather expressing my amazement on the extreme stance taken by fchopin in that comment. Go and lecture him if that's what you're so averse to.

Actually you were answering to me and not fchopin, so I don't see why I should lecture him, and you repeatedly transformed "sexuality has a big influence on personnality" with "you say that your sexual orientation is your whole character ????", which is pretty much the definition of "binary mode" without any ability to handle the concept of degree.

[Dark83]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Man, most dating sims have like a 100+ pages of dialogue and relationship development before the sex. BW could learn from dating sims.

Yeah, that thought came to me a bit later, too. I take my words back on that one, at least for dating sims well done, not those from the early 90ies.

"What's my cup size?"
"C."
"That's right!" *Approval +1*
:innocent:

[Darkest Dreamer]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually you were answering to me and not fchopin, so I don't see why I should lecture him and you repeatedly transformed "sexuality has a big influence on personnality" with "you say that your sexual orientation is your whole character ????", which is pretty much the definition of "binary mode" without any ability to handle the concept of degree.

Read CAREFULLY, maybe even backtrack a little. I posted a comment in response to fchopin's EXTREME view and you decided to take up his position by responding to me and saying how it was OBVIOUS and I should read not-so-anon's post to see as much.

This is just getting silly. Are you attacking me for the sake of it now?

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

"What's my cup size?"
"C."
"That's right!" *Approval +1*

*laugh*

But admit it, remembering that at least requires some brainwork. No HeartButton :3

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 04 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[AlexXIV]

not so anon wrote...

This is an open letter to David Gaider and the rest of the BioWare, about the writing decisions surrounding the romance options in DA 2 (and the series in general).

I wasn't sure if I wanted to write this for a long time. Partly this was because I was worried about the reaction this might generate (which is why I am posting under a different name -- I really am a registered owner of both DA:O and DA 2, but have reasons for not using my primary account to post this), and partly it was because I wasn't sure that I wanted to be part of the re-hashing of this topic. Even though it is important to me, it's not the only thing that is significant to me about the Dragon Age series, and a portion of me felt a desire to just let this controversy fizzle out. 

But then I read David Gaider's defense of the choices the writing staff made with the romance options in DA 2. I thought Gaider's post was eloquent and inspiring. But, that post also contained a bit of uncertainty about whether the decision to make the romance options for most of the characters available to both genders was correct / a good one. I know many players -- straight, gay, and everything in between -- have posted in support of the writing staff. I am writing this post as a way of doing so too, because the decision of the Bioware writers in DA:O (and continued and expanded in DA 2) had a serious effect on me. And I feel the need to express my sincere thanks because of that.

So, here goes. I'm a gay girl, though I've only been living openly for slightly more than the past year. The Dragon Age series is partly responsible for that. Maybe that sounds strange, but I'll try to explain.

I do have to say something, though, just to prevent this letter from being taken out of context. Dragon Age did not make me gay. Nor was it the only reason I finally widely came out. But it was a part of the process.

I don't know that I can put a finger on exactly how the game helped contribute to me living an open life, but I know that it did. Maybe it was just the frankness of the queer romance options in the first game. Or the way that the BioWare writers defended themselves back when controversy over those options in Origins first developed. I'm not completely sure. But whatever the reason was, shortly after completing the first game I made the decision to embrace my identity and be open about who I am. I credit DA:O for helping that happen. And so I was happy to see DA 2 continue in this vein, and not regress in the face of controversy or complaint.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... please, BioWare, keep on doing what you have been doing. Keep making choices like you made in Dragon Age 2, and hopefully will make in Dragon Age 3. Make queer friendly games. Include romance options for all of your fans, and not just those in the majority. Because it's important. And it affects people in ways that go beyond the game itself. Ways you may not realize (well, until we put up an open letter to you on your forums, heh). A part of me wishes that it wasn't so important. That such features of a game were so commonplace that we wouldn't have controversy over it every time a new entry in this wonderful series is released. But it is, and we do, and as a result I felt the need to write this.

Since I've been out, my life has become exponentially better. It is freeing to be who I truly am. So, thank you David Gaider. Thank you Dragon Age writers. Thank you to the rest of the Dragon Age team. And thanks BioWare. I really appreciate it.

Hm ... even in danger of sounding like an ass.

Why do you need to post with a fake account? I have seen posts of lesbians and gays in this forum and I don't even remember that they would get attacked for it or whatever. Certain game related decissions may be attacked but never was anyone personally attacked for their sexuality.

So if you had your comming out in real life, why hide it here? I don't understand.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Schurge]

So am I allowed to come in here and say that I thought making everyone bi-sexual was a bogus decision. That the decision not only cheapened the characters but it was implemented solely because some homosexuals didn't respect the characters in Origins and created hacks that allowed you to romance anyone (to go along with the multitude of porn mods) even though the companions' sexuality was a core part of their character (in the cases of Alistair and Morrigan)?

[Inquisitor Recon]

AlexXIV wrote...
So if you had your comming out in real life, why hide it here? I don't understand.

Because they are David Gaider in disguise? Or a cyborg. Or part of some other plot.

Unknown guy/gal just as you feel Bioware should make this content for you, I feel I should have the option to have a party not filled with Hawke-sexuals hitting on me. Also this is a game, an entertainment product. If Bioware is going to pander to a crowd they should do it business reasons rather than tales of personal drama, and they shouldn't be taking advantage of the majority in the process.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 04 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[Akka le Vil]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

Read CAREFULLY, maybe even backtrack a little. I posted a comment in response to fchopin's EXTREME view and you decided to take up his position by responding to me and saying how it was OBVIOUS and I should read not-so-anon's post to see as much.

This is just getting silly. Are you attacking me for the sake of it now?

I said that sexuality is a large part of someone, and that it's pretty obvious. I fail to see where I said anything else.
As for fchopin, I can totally relate with him. Without saying that someone is nothing but his sexual orientation, I can see how seeing something as "inner-self" as this changing on the fly just because you select another sex for your avatar as giving them a pretty "gamey" and shallow existence, like if they were not really anchored in the game world.

And the only thing being silly is how easily you seem offended. You really seem to have a sensitive spot here, and it's pretty annoying.

[Stanley Woo]

Schurge wrote...

So am I allowed to come in here and say that I thought making everyone bi-sexual was a bogus decision. That the decision not only cheapened the characters but it was implemented solely because some homosexuals didn't respect the characters in Origins and created hacks that allowed you to romance anyone (to go along with the multitude of porn mods) even though the companions' sexuality was a core part of their character (in the cases of Alistair and Morrigan)?

You are certainly allowed to present that opinion, just as others are allowed to agree or disagree wtih you. We've tried several different ways of presenting romanceable characters, and we've received both positive and negative feedback on each and every one of them.

You, Schurge, have just illustrated one of the difficulties we encounter when creating such characters and stories. You presumably would prefer a character whose sexuality is static regardless of what gender the PC is. but you've just detailed the fact that some of our players preferred romanceable characters whose sexual orientation is either dependant on the PC's gender or is more hetero- or ******-flexible. Who do we listen to? Do we go one way or the other? Is there a third way? A fourth or sixth or tenth? And what do we think? Do we set off on our own thing or integrate some other idea? Which idea, and how integrated? will our target audience like that? Lots of questions have to be asked when dealing with romances since BioWare is one of the few developers who include such things as major game features.

Regardless, it is player-driven, and no matter what decision we make, people will make up their own minds once the game is out of our hands. The static sexuality of, say, Dragon Age: Origins? the pronoun-switching of Jade Empire? The flexible nature of Dragon Age II? Personally, I doubt there is a singular way to present romanceable characters in BioWare RPGs, but I think our writers and designers will continue to treat them with as much respect and care as our other character and story interactions.

EDIT: Let's try and keep the discussion impersonal and at least somewhat on-topic, please.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 avril 2011 - 10:00 .

[Valcutio]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Schurge wrote...

So am I allowed to come in here and say that I thought making everyone bi-sexual was a bogus decision. That the decision not only cheapened the characters but it was implemented solely because some homosexuals didn't respect the characters in Origins and created hacks that allowed you to romance anyone (to go along with the multitude of porn mods) even though the companions' sexuality was a core part of their character (in the cases of Alistair and Morrigan)?

You are certainly allowed to present that opinion, just as others are allowed to agree or disagree wtih you. We've tried several different ways of presenting romanceable characters, and we've received both positive and negative feedback on each and every one of them.

You, Schurge, have just illustrated one of the difficulties we encounter when creating such characters and stories. You presumably would prefer a character whose sexuality is static regardless of what gender the PC is. but you've just detailed the fact that some of our players preferred romanceable characters whose sexual orientation is either dependant on the PC's gender or is more hetero- or ******-flexible. Who do we listen to? Do we go one way or the other? Is there a third way? A fourth or sixth or tenth? And what do we think? Do we set off on our own thing or integrate some other idea? Which idea, and how integrated? will our target audience like that? Lots of questions have to be asked when dealing with romances since BioWare is one of the few developers who include such things as major game features.

Regardless, it is player-driven, and no matter what decision we make, people will make up their own minds once the game is out of our hands. The static sexuality of, say, Dragon Age: Origins? the pronoun-switching of Jade Empire? The flexible nature of Dragon Age II? Personally, I doubt there is a singular way to present romanceable characters in BioWare RPGs, but I think our writers and designers will continue to treat them with as much respect and care as our other character and story interactions.

EDIT: Let's try and keep the discussion impersonal and at least somewhat on-topic, please.

I'd like to think of video games as art. You create a world and we, the players, are able to roleplay and interact in that world. When you make a character bisexual instead of straight or gay then that does influence a player's perception of that character and changes the entire artwork presentation. Instead of having Anders being the ladies man from Awakening, where he was amusing and a great buddy to have along - in DA2 he was an emotional and clingy trainwreck because he was so romance-driven.

I don't mind having gay characters in video games but I wish people would stop pretending that it doesn't influence their personality, their stories, people's perceptions of those characters or people's overall enjoyment of having that character around.

Modifié par Valcutio, 04 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[Darkest Dreamer]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I said that sexuality is a large part of someone, and that it's pretty obvious. I fail to see where I said anything else.

I was commenting on the extreme position fchopin was taking and you jumped into the conversation with all caps comments such as YES and stating how it was "obvious". You didn't distance yourself once from his nonsense but actually did the opposite and went as far as to express shock at the idea that I could be taken aback at such a ridiculous stance.

As for fchopin, I can totally relate with him. Without saying that someone is nothing but his sexual orientation, I can see how seeing something as "inner-self" as this changing on the fly just because you select another sex for your avatar as giving them a pretty "gamey" and shallow existence, like if they were not really anchored in the game world.

I can see that as well and I covered this when I said that we have differing opinions. Agree to disagree and all that rot. But that is NOT what fchopin said and simply because you "relate" with him hardly justifies your jumping in to attack me for expressing surprise at him.

And the only thing being silly is how easily you seem offended. You really seem to have a sensitive spot here, and it's pretty annoying.

Not even close to as annoying as your condescending attitude and insults. Yeah, no, I'm not going to take your rubbish, so pull the other one.

This is "nice" rhetoric and all but the fact is you jumped in to defend someone without even considering that HE was the extremist and now it feels as if you're desperately working on damage control. Much to my annoyance.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[PlumPaul93]

Schurge wrote...

So am I allowed to come in here and say that I thought making everyone bi-sexual was a bogus decision. That the decision not only cheapened the characters but it was implemented solely because some homosexuals didn't respect the characters in Origins and created hacks that allowed you to romance anyone (to go along with the multitude of porn mods) even though the companions' sexuality was a core part of their character (in the cases of Alistair and Morrigan)?

This