275 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

You, Schurge, have just illustrated one of the difficulties we encounter when creating such characters and stories. You presumably would prefer a character whose sexuality is static regardless of what gender the PC is. but you've just detailed the fact that some of our players preferred romanceable characters whose sexual orientation is either dependant on the PC's gender or is more hetero- or ******-flexible. Who do we listen to? Do we go one way or the other? Is there a third way? A fourth or sixth or tenth? And what do we think? Do we set off on our own thing or integrate some other idea? Which idea, and how integrated? will our target audience like that? Lots of questions have to be asked when dealing with romances since BioWare is one of the few developers who include such things as major game features.

Though I may share your concern from a business point of view, artistic quality is pretty clear-cut on this one.
What would you think of a Leliana that suddendly didn't care about you destroying Andraste's ashes (because her personnality is rewritten on the fly to provide more flexibility !!!) ?
Do you think would have been the same without his firm belief in the Qun, that was never shaken despite whatever the PC could have told him ?
Is it more interesting to have developped characters that can use a lot of subtleties in their speech, or just trounce their dialogue and keep it generic so that they can be changed without problem ?

I'm pretty sure DA2 would have been a better game - and had a better reception - if it actually knew what it actually was, rather than the patchwork of everything it ended up to be, and though omnisex romances are certainly not the main cause of this problem, they are a direct consequence and perfect representation of this disjointed design philosophy.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 04 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[MrTijger]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Though I may share your concern from a business point of view, artistic quality is pretty clear-cut on this one.
What would you think of a Leliana that suddendly didn't care about you destroying Andraste's ashes (because her personnality is rewritten on the fly to provide more flexibility !!!) ?
Do you think would have been the same without his firm belief in the Qun, that was never shaken despite whatever the PC could have told him ?
Is it more interesting to have developped characters that can use a lot of subtleties in their speech, or just trounce their dialogue and keep it generic so that they can be changed without problem ?

I'm pretty sure DA2 would have been a better game - and had a better reception - if it actually knew what it actually was, rather than the patchwork of everything it ended up to be, and though omnisex romances are certainly not the main cause of this problem, they are a direct consequence and perfect representation of this disjointed design philosophy.

Your post makes zero sense, Stanley was talking about the romance and sexuality situation, not the reactions to world events which are scripted anway and are not and never have been flexible.

They simply decided that romantic involvement wouldnt be dependent on the sex of Hawke with certain characters. They're not bi, gay or straight, they're Hawke-sexual.

Modifié par MrTijger, 04 avril 2011 - 10:31 .

[BeljoraDien]

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

[PlumPaul93]

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

This has been bugging me for a while as well but I didn't know how to word it properly, nicely done. Also I agree with everything you said.

[Darkest Dreamer]

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

I don't know, I think I disagree. I can understand you want to better relate to the world but I feel it helps you accomplish this through other areas, such as religions, cultures, classes, etc. A few sacrifices (a relative term in this instance) shouldn't really hurt and at times help in actually setting the world apart.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 04 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[Valcutio]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

This has been bugging me for a while as well but I didn't know how to word it properly, nicely done. Also I agree with everything you said.

This was actually a really great post. I hope Bioware reads this.

[AngelicMachinery]

BeljoraDien wrote...

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Oh yea,  they handled that PERFECTLY.  "You're not gay,  you just want to be accepted."  and "Your not Transgendered you just want to be taken seriously."

[BeljoraDien]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Oh yea,  they handled that PERFECTLY.  "You're not gay,  you just want to be accepted."  and "Your not Transgendered you just want to be taken seriously."

Huh? Kanji was most definitely gay. He had a difficult time coming out, and repressed a stereotypical gay persona into his sub concious. I'm not going to argue whether P4 handled it well... but they did deal with it. There are games that I thought handled such a thing much better, but they're more obscure.

I'm not just blowing smoke or appealing for common ground when I say BW shouldn't be condemned for the decision they made... I don't find that the relationships, whether bi or straight, were very good in either DA2 or DA:O... but in DA:O I felt like everything else around it made up for that. I just feel like, in DA2, it was just yet another 'blah' decision. I just don't think people should be throwing them a reward treat for it.

Modifié par BeljoraDien, 04 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[MrTijger]

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

Ok, outside a JRPG which I'd never heard of, name me one major western publisher that not only puts gay content in a major title but is willing to voceferously and publically defend it like mr Gaider did?

You can call it avoiding the issue, fine, but the stand that David Gaider took was the diametric opposite of avoiding the issue. Sure, I see your point and yeah, I'm sure we need more mature ways to incorporate sexuality into games but lets not pretend that Bioware isnt willing to confront the issue because thats clearly not true.

[naruhodo]

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

I can kind of see your point about Bioware ****footing around tackling the issue of sexuality directly, but the fact that they include LBG relationships in their game is still above what is required of them and beyond most other video games out there today.

The inclusion of respectable queer characters and LBG options in video games is disproportionally small compared to the number of queer gamers. If a video game company takes the social risk of allowing LBG options in their game, it may seem like a small step to you, but it is still a step in the right direction and definitely should be applauded.

With such an amazingly complex thing as sexuality, the way they implement it in their game might not always reach a 100% satisfactory ideal, but I still think it's great that they include queer main characters in their games.

[Inquisitor Recon]

MrTijger wrote...
You can call it avoiding the issue, fine, but the stand that David Gaider took was the diametric opposite of avoiding the issue. Sure, I see your point and yeah, I'm sure we need more mature ways to incorporate sexuality into games but lets not pretend that Bioware isnt willing to confront the issue because thats clearly not true.

And why should they bother? They should be worried about making a good game, everything else must be secondary. No social commentary and other topics politicians and activists argue about in the real world as everybody else gets by day to day. JRPGs aren't horribly popular in the Western world to begin with, companies here shouldn't try to replicate that. I like what I've gotten for the past 20 years.

[Valcutio]

MrTijger wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

Ok, outside a JRPG which I'd never heard of, name me one major western publisher that not only puts gay content in a major title but is willing to voceferously and publically defend it like mr Gaider did?

You can call it avoiding the issue, fine, but the stand that David Gaider took was the diametric opposite of avoiding the issue. Sure, I see your point and yeah, I'm sure we need more mature ways to incorporate sexuality into games but lets not pretend that Bioware isnt willing to confront the issue because thats clearly not true.

He defended a design decision. Nothing more. It was lazy game design and everyone knows it. Whether they're in denial about it or not varies.

[PlumPaul93]

This is why I feel bioware shouldn't be getting all the thanks people are giving them saying they were standing up for gay people, etc. JMO

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

Modifié par PlumPaul82393, 04 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[ink07]

Stanley Woo wrote...

You, Schurge, have just illustrated one of the difficulties we encounter when creating such characters and stories. You presumably would prefer a character whose sexuality is static regardless of what gender the PC is. but you've just detailed the fact that some of our players preferred romanceable characters whose sexual orientation is either dependant on the PC's gender or is more hetero- or ******-flexible. Who do we listen to? Do we go one way or the other? Is there a third way? A fourth or sixth or tenth? And what do we think? Do we set off on our own thing or integrate some other idea? Which idea, and how integrated? will our target audience like that? Lots of questions have to be asked when dealing with romances since BioWare is one of the few developers who include such things as major game features.

Don't be obnoxious, you went with the: "let's please everyone by allowing them to have a romance with whoever they choose" option and your target audience were all those people who modded their games, or wrote/drew fanfic to that respect or expressed an opinion on how they thought Alistair was totally gay. You even brought characters back from the dead regardless of the option the players chose, so don't pretend character's sexuality was a serious and deep discusion with unforseeable ramifications and consequences only take by the industry leaders that are Bioware. I'm not implying that you were disrespectful, or had a hidden agenda, only that it was a lazy, crowd-pleasing feature.

If that is what you decided for the sake of not alienating any of your players, or due to market research, focus groups or whatever, fine, just stand by it and that reasoning, but dont make it look like it was difficult beyond belief in a philosophical and psychological level to choose why. It's just another feature in which you decided to cut corners and everyone can see right through it in a second.

Modifié par ink07, 04 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[JediMB]

OP:
Nice to hear that you're able to live openly with your sexuality. I know it's terrible to feel that you have to hide aspects of who you are from the world. Be well!

Akka le Vil wrote...

What would you think of a Leliana that suddendly didn't care about you destroying Andraste's ashes (because her personnality is rewritten on the fly to provide more flexibility !!!) ?

That's... exactly what happened in my most recent playthrough. Wynne got upset and left, but Leliana was more interested in looking at the pinch of ashes I had brought with me.

[BeljoraDien]

MrTijger wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

Ok, outside a JRPG which I'd never heard of, name me one major western publisher that not only puts gay content in a major title but is willing to voceferously and publically defend it like mr Gaider did?

You can call it avoiding the issue, fine, but the stand that David Gaider took was the diametric opposite of avoiding the issue. Sure, I see your point and yeah, I'm sure we need more mature ways to incorporate sexuality into games but lets not pretend that Bioware isnt willing to confront the issue because thats clearly not true.

But... the only big case of offense I've heard of was a gay person who was offended by the handling. So, it's not like he's defending it because he was so forward-thinking and handled it so well that plebeians just couldn't deal with it... He's defending it from a gay person who thought he handled it badly. I don't agree with that, for the record.

And, I mean, I think when you have realistic gay characters, you don't get a vocal outrage. They're just there, and no one gives a ****. If I'm being forced to pick wRPGs that had gay characters: Fallout 2, KotOR, and Jade Empire come to mind. I can think of a lot of western non-RPGs with gay characters... and I can definitely think of a lot of jRPGs with them. Again, I'm not saying they all specifically deal with it in a great way... but they do atleast deal with it. The characters don't go "What gender are you? Oh? Yeah, that's the one I like." I just don't see how that's such a 'praiseworthy' mechanic (even if it might be a 'necessary' one).

[Psython]

I support Bioware in their handling of this. I don't think having multiple orientation romances is necessarily lazy. To make every companion a diffferent sexuality and still provide romance options for everyone would mean you would need to have a lot of companions and most people would miss at least half of those options. DA2 still has the same number of romance targets as DAO but now more people can experience them that would otherwise be excluded due to orientation.

Its 2011, I think some "progressive" ideas in games is a great thing.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Psython wrote...
Its 2011, I think some "progressive" ideas in games is a great thing.

Progress is characters who bang anything that moves? Progress is making such a big deal out of these pointless minor romances? Real progress is making a better game.

[ink07]

Psython wrote...

Its 2011, I think some "progressive" ideas in games is a great thing.

How about this "progressive"  ideas for a change:

"there is a minimum amount of polish and development time required for a game to launch"
"we will intend to avoid heavily reused areas, especially when one of our previous games was criticized for that very fact and we had acknowledged said criticism"
"ship a game in which at least all of the quests work correctly and one in which the story includes a proper ending"
"carefully think out our character's personalities and express them in a coherent way, more specifically, one in which its sexuallity is not detemined only by the PCs sex and user desires, but is a testament of how real people feel and act in the real world."

Maybe some of these are TOO progressive.

Modifié par ink07, 04 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[Annora]

@OP, I kind of wish you had posted this on your real account so it would have been in the registered forums, which are much more pleasant and inclusive. The general discussion forums remind me of the battle.net forums, and that's disgusting.

Either way, congratulations on transitioning through a difficult time, and I'm very happy to hear the game helped you.

[Satyricon331]

Anastassia wrote...
Either way, congratulations on transitioning through a difficult time, and I'm very happy to hear the game helped you.

Very much this.

[Darkest Dreamer]

Anastassia wrote...

@OP, I kind of wish you had posted this on your real account so it would have been in the registered forums, which are much more pleasant and inclusive. The general discussion forums remind me of the battle.net forums, and that's disgusting.

This is the second time I've seen someone mention the difference in attitudes between the two forums. I'm surprised how this works because (as far as I can tell) most of those commenting own Dragon Age 2. That said, I'm also curious who not-so-anon is but mostly just for curiosities sake.

[Valcutio]

Anastassia wrote...

@OP, I kind of wish you had posted this on your real account so it would have been in the registered forums, which are much more pleasant and inclusive. The general discussion forums remind me of the battle.net forums, and that's disgusting.

Either way, congratulations on transitioning through a difficult time, and I'm very happy to hear the game helped you.

You mean where people are afraid to post their honest opinions because they're afraid of biased mods banning them? Yeah, really inclusive. I love that new keyword you guys are passing around.

[Icinix]

not so anon : Great post and I too support the way romances were handled and BioWares stance afterwards too. Great to see them stand by those kinds of decisions...because it's about bloody time the gaming industry made that stand.

[88mphSlayer]

MrTijger wrote...

BeljoraDien wrote...

I understand that in the DA universe, for whatever reason, sexuality does not come up. That's a fine fantasy universe and all... but it just doesn't deal with any real-life issues associated with sexuality as a result.

I feel a little sore that there are actual games that deal with real issues of sexuality and the issues associated with having gay companions (Persona 4 comes to mind), whereas BW was explicitly making a design decision meant to AVOID the issue, yet they're getting credit for being so forward.

Now, avoiding the issue is fine. It's not worthy of condemnation... but it isn't worthy of applause either. It was just another lazy game mechanic with minimal effort tacked on at the last moment.

Ok, outside a JRPG which I'd never heard of, name me one major western publisher that not only puts gay content in a major title but is willing to voceferously and publically defend it like mr Gaider did?

You can call it avoiding the issue, fine, but the stand that David Gaider took was the diametric opposite of avoiding the issue. Sure, I see your point and yeah, I'm sure we need more mature ways to incorporate sexuality into games but lets not pretend that Bioware isnt willing to confront the issue because thats clearly not true.

Grand Theft Auto 4: The Ballad of Gay Tony?

/before you ask i've never played it