275 réponses à ce sujet

[aphelion002]

OP, your post is touching and eloquent. However, I have to disagree with you. I do not like how Bioware handled the writing of the sexuality of the characters.

I will tell you why. The way Bioware wrote it, it made it seem that the sexuality of each character was an add-on, a non-essential part of each character's personality that can be casually changed. I'm sure OP, that you will agree with me that it is not. A person's sexuality is a big, essential part of your personality. Its not a switch that you can just flip and keep everything else the same. Right now, the bisexuality of each character is not only statistically absurd (what are the chances!), but smacks to me of "artful reuse". Some characters, like Zevran and Isabella, make sense as bisexual. Some should be simply gay or straight. Modularity is great for efficient programming and maximizing profits, but not so good to paint a picture of a character - the primary focus of an RPG.

[augustburnt]

How was DAO not gay friendly? How was ME2 not gay friendly? Just because the entire game isn't focused around everybody being gay doesn't mean its not gay friendly. The Public is making homosexuality more than acceptable, they are making it into the poor little child that everybody now wants to spoil for some random reason. If I start complaining that video games don't have enough characters with brown eyes can I rally the public into a global pity party?

[konokonohamaru]

Count me as one of those who do not like the fact that all characters are either bisexual or Hawkesexual. I think it undermines the uniqueness of their personality.

If Bioware really wants to take a stand, make a gay-only character

[AngelicMachinery]

augustburnt wrote...
How was ME2 not gay friendly?

Mass Effect 2 just seemed to kind of sweep gay under the rug.  Sure,  sex with lizards is A-okay (If your a woman) but same sex relationships? NO wai!  (Well,  unless you were a woman and downloaded Shadow Broker.)

[augustburnt]

konokonohamaru wrote...

Count me as one of those who do not like the fact that all characters are either bisexual or Hawkesexual. I think it undermines the uniqueness of their personality.

If Bioware really wants to take a stand, make a gay-only character

Its not even making a stand, homosexuality isn't the shunned life it used to be. Maybe in public schools, and everybody gets messed with in school, people need to just grow up and ignore it, instead of crying about it and expecting people to take them seriously. Honestly, homosexuality pity parties are the new cool, wich is really sad.

[konokonohamaru]

augustburnt wrote...
Its not even making a stand, homosexuality isn't the shunned life it used to be. Maybe in public schools, and everybody gets messed with in school, people need to just grow up and ignore it, instead of crying about it and expecting people to take them seriously. Honestly, homosexuality pity parties are the new cool, wich is really sad.

I think there may be more prejudice out there than you think.

But never mind, I'm not in the camp that thinks Bioware is obligated to include a romance option for gays in every game they make.  I just think that if they're going to, it would be better to include a gay-only romance option rather than make everyone bisexual and/or give the player a switch to change their sexuality.

[Inquisitor Recon]

konokonohamaru wrote...
But never mind, I'm not in the camp that thinks Bioware is obligated to include a romance option for gays in every game they make.  I just think that if they're going to, it would be better to include a gay-only romance option rather than make everyone bisexual and/or give the player a switch to change their sexuality.

They could just leave it to mods you know, like there were for some characters in DA:O.

[ink07]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

augustburnt wrote...
How was ME2 not gay friendly?

Mass Effect 2 just seemed to kind of sweep gay under the rug.  Sure,  sex with lizards is A-okay (If your a woman) but same sex relationships? NO wai!  (Well,  unless you were a woman and downloaded Shadow Broker.)

You know what is funnier about that? Bioware themselves acknowledged that they didn't see Male Commander Shepard as a gay character, and that is the reason they didn't write it as such. Female Shepard is ok, I mean, who doesn't enjoy alien lesbian love in space operas, but male homosexuality was a no go, i assume, because of the simple fear of alienating the shooter target audience which consists mostly of heterosexual male gamers.

That is a reason why sexuality choices in DA2 are even more ridiculous and all the buzz around it is actually founded on the wrong discourse.

Modifié par ink07, 05 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[Gvaz]

Other than the choice to make everyone Bi, which for people like Anders is very hit or miss based on his previous character (which in Awakenings was arguably better), the story was really bad.

I expected a lot from DA:O, and DA2 railroaded you into any and all choices, both gameplay and story wise.

Being able to choose a romance that is open in sexuality =/= good writing.

[AngelicMachinery]

ReconTeam wrote...

konokonohamaru wrote...
But never mind, I'm not in the camp that thinks Bioware is obligated to include a romance option for gays in every game they make.  I just think that if they're going to, it would be better to include a gay-only romance option rather than make everyone bisexual and/or give the player a switch to change their sexuality.

They could just leave it to mods you know, like there were for some characters in DA:O.

The mods won't work in this case,  you essentially flick the switch that toggles your male character as female, or your female character as male.  This would end up with more than likely the opposite gendered voice coming out of your characters mouth with the new design.

I still don't know what the big deal is,  sexuality doesn't really influence your personality all that much.  I know plenty of people who completely break the stereotypes for certain sexualities.  Heck, one of my straight male friends is the biggest Queen I know,  complete with hand waving and the use of "Girlfriend"

And four bisexual people in one group doesn't seem that strange to me either,  but,  I suppose that might be because the type of people I hang out with.  

What it comes down to is I don't quite understand how the sexuality of your companions cheapens them.  I could understand bad writing and what have you,  but,  not something that seems so trivial to me as their orientation.

[konokonohamaru]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
What it comes down to is I don't quite understand how the sexuality of your companions cheapens them.  I could understand bad writing and what have you,  but,  not something that seems so trivial to me as their orientation.

But sexual orientation isn't trivial.  It has a deep effect on your relationships with other people.  I don't know how old you are, or what kind of people you hang out with, but there's a reason you don't see a lot of 40 year old men who are buddy buddy with 40 year old women.  It's because sexual orientation can create things like sexual tension, romantic rivalry, what have you, that has a big impact on a person's relationships.

In terms of gameplay, it matters too from a roleplaying perspective.  I generally play a nice Hawke, but because Fenris and Anders were bi, I had to be somewhat careful with my attitude towards them.  Kinda like in real life, as a man, if I met a gay person, I'd have to be more careful around him than if I met a straight guy, just like I'd have to be more careful around a straight woman.  If they weren't bi, I could choose the approach that I want, without worrying about tiptoeing around their sexuality.

[Inquisitor Recon]

konokonohamaru wrote...
but there's a reason you don't see a lot of 40 year old men who are buddy buddy with 40 year old women.

You don't? Or do you mean buddy buddy as not married?

[konokonohamaru]

yeah, I meant you don't see a lot of 40 year old men who are buddy buddy with a 40 year old women but the two of them are not married to each other or cohabiting.

[88mphSlayer]

GvazElite wrote...

Other than the choice to make everyone Bi, which for people like Anders is very hit or miss based on his previous character (which in Awakenings was arguably better), the story was really bad.

I expected a lot from DA:O, and DA2 railroaded you into any and all choices, both gameplay and story wise.

Being able to choose a romance that is open in sexuality =/= good writing.

i still don't want to be a warden 

[naruhodo]

This thread completely derailed from celebrating inclusion/visibility of minorities in Dragon Age to a discussion of what good writing would make romancing look like in a DA game.

I don't think the OP made any comments/asserted any opinions about the writing of the romance system being good OR bad in DA:O/DA2, she was just thanking Bioware for inclusion.

I know there are plenty of threads similar to this, but since everyone here is now talking about what the romance system in DA2 SHOULD have been, I made a new thread specifically on that topic:

http://social.biowar...1/index/6936400

Modifié par naruhodo, 05 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[Horsemanlawyer]

You are a powerfully courageous woman for writing this post and for having the strength to be who you are. I applaud you from the bottom of my heart.

[AtreiyaN7]

Good for you, that can't have been easy. Nice to see at least one thoughtful post in here,

[Centauri2002]

I'm glad you're able to live as the person you truly are, OP. It always warms my heart to see this acceptance. :3

I only wish games like this were around when I came out, they would have gone a long way to making girls like myself feel less ostracised. But, I am glad for them existing now, and finally allowing me to enjoy more than mere subtext. For all the faults BioWare games might have, their inclusivity cannot be faulted.

Good luck with everything, OP.

Modifié par centauri2002, 05 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I’m not old and I’m not young, I’m kind of stuck somewhere in the middle which might explain why I don’t quite see the serious hang ups here. Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you. I also don’t quite understand why you have to change the way you act around straight women or gay men, most people can handle rejection… they’ll be a little miffed (+10 or so rivalry in game terms) but, it’s nothing world shattering.

Perhaps though, my own bisexuality has flavored the way I think about intimate relationships.

[Centauri2002]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’m not old and I’m not young, I’m kind of stuck somewhere in the middle which might explain why I don’t quite see the serious hang ups here. Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you. I also don’t quite understand why you have to change the way you act around straight women or gay men, most people can handle rejection… they’ll be a little miffed (+10 or so rivalry in game terms) but, it’s nothing world shattering.

Perhaps though, my own bisexuality has flavored the way I think about intimate relationships.

I think people's views on it are largely tempered by their own experiences. Some people have had some fairly bad experiences with bigotry or hatred, whilst others may never have encountered a bad example of it. For me, I've seen and experienced some pretty vile incidents in relation to this so I can fully understand why it's a difficult process. I just wish more people had an easier time of it. 

[Blakes 7]

Simple solution probably not mentioned, make more romance options :->

Only reason to make sexuality flexible is because they are not willing to invest resources into making more characters in the game ahem*rushed game development*

Then no compromise needed, not fair of bioware to put this back on the fans of the game because they're not willing to invest the resources!

[Alamar2078]

not so anon wrote...

This is an open letter to David Gaider and the rest of the BioWare, about the writing decisions surrounding the romance options in DA 2 (and the series in general).

I wasn't sure if I wanted to write this for a long time. Partly this was because I was worried about the reaction this might generate (which is why I am posting under a different name -- I really am a registered owner of both DA:O and DA 2, but have reasons for not using my primary account to post this), and partly it was because I wasn't sure that I wanted to be part of the re-hashing of this topic. Even though it is important to me, it's not the only thing that is significant to me about the Dragon Age series, and a portion of me felt a desire to just let this controversy fizzle out. 

But then I read David Gaider's defense of the choices the writing staff made with the romance options in DA 2. I thought Gaider's post was eloquent and inspiring. But, that post also contained a bit of uncertainty about whether the decision to make the romance options for most of the characters available to both genders was correct / a good one. I know many players -- straight, gay, and everything in between -- have posted in support of the writing staff. I am writing this post as a way of doing so too, because the decision of the Bioware writers in DA:O (and continued and expanded in DA 2) had a serious effect on me. And I feel the need to express my sincere thanks because of that.

So, here goes. I'm a gay girl, though I've only been living openly for slightly more than the past year. The Dragon Age series is partly responsible for that. Maybe that sounds strange, but I'll try to explain.

I do have to say something, though, just to prevent this letter from being taken out of context. Dragon Age did not make me gay. Nor was it the only reason I finally widely came out. But it was a part of the process.

I don't know that I can put a finger on exactly how the game helped contribute to me living an open life, but I know that it did. Maybe it was just the frankness of the queer romance options in the first game. Or the way that the BioWare writers defended themselves back when controversy over those options in Origins first developed. I'm not completely sure. But whatever the reason was, shortly after completing the first game I made the decision to embrace my identity and be open about who I am. I credit DA:O for helping that happen. And so I was happy to see DA 2 continue in this vein, and not regress in the face of controversy or complaint.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... please, BioWare, keep on doing what you have been doing. Keep making choices like you made in Dragon Age 2, and hopefully will make in Dragon Age 3. Make queer friendly games. Include romance options for all of your fans, and not just those in the majority. Because it's important. And it affects people in ways that go beyond the game itself. Ways you may not realize (well, until we put up an open letter to you on your forums, heh). A part of me wishes that it wasn't so important. That such features of a game were so commonplace that we wouldn't have controversy over it every time a new entry in this wonderful series is released. But it is, and we do, and as a result I felt the need to write this.

Since I've been out, my life has become exponentially better. It is freeing to be who I truly am. So, thank you David Gaider. Thank you Dragon Age writers. Thank you to the rest of the Dragon Age team. And thanks BioWare. I really appreciate it.

Congrats on having a happy life.

As for the decisions I think an effort to try to mirror real life with some straight only, gay only, bi possible romances would be really good.  I personally don't see the downside esp. if you have the choice to initiate romance dialog [heart option] and don't have it forced on you when you're trying to be nice / friendly.

[A Puzzled Mind]

All I'm reading from this is that "more" Anders type characters should be forced upon games...

[naruhodo]

A Puzzled Mind wrote...

All I'm reading from this is that "more" Anders type characters should be forced upon games...

Well, way to read what's not there?

Sure, it's implied that the continued inclusion of LGB characters would be great for making our minority visible and included in a proportionally fair way, but no one's saying "LETS MAEK ALL THA CHARACTERS GAY!"

We just don't want game makers to systematically exclude LBGT characters in stories. They don't have to be in every game, and they don't have to be in your face, but I think it's pretty obvious that the reason few other games besides DA have LBG inclusion is because of societal pressures, not purely "storytelling decisions."

This thread is kind of about thanking Bioware for having the balls to include a real thing that other game makers are too scared to even mention in a serious context in their games. It's not demanding that every game is homotopia <_<

Modifié par naruhodo, 05 avril 2011 - 01:48 .

[AngelicMachinery]

centauri2002 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’m not old and I’m not young, I’m kind of stuck somewhere in the middle which might explain why I don’t quite see the serious hang ups here. Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you. I also don’t quite understand why you have to change the way you act around straight women or gay men, most people can handle rejection… they’ll be a little miffed (+10 or so rivalry in game terms) but, it’s nothing world shattering.

Perhaps though, my own bisexuality has flavored the way I think about intimate relationships.

I think people's views on it are largely tempered by their own experiences. Some people have had some fairly bad experiences with bigotry or hatred, whilst others may never have encountered a bad example of it. For me, I've seen and experienced some pretty vile incidents in relation to this so I can fully understand why it's a difficult process. I just wish more people had an easier time of it. 

I actually meant that as a reply to another post,  not the opening poster.  Believe me, I wasn't trying to downplay the hardship...  though,  I suppose it could have been read as such.