275 réponses à ce sujet

[Wishpig]

aphelion002 wrote...

OP, your post is touching and eloquent. However, I have to disagree with you. I do not like how Bioware handled the writing of the sexuality of the characters.

I will tell you why. The way Bioware wrote it, it made it seem that the sexuality of each character was an add-on, a non-essential part of each character's personality that can be casually changed. I'm sure OP, that you will agree with me that it is not. A person's sexuality is a big, essential part of your personality. Its not a switch that you can just flip and keep everything else the same. Right now, the bisexuality of each character is not only statistically absurd (what are the chances!), but smacks to me of "artful reuse". Some characters, like Zevran and Isabella, make sense as bisexual. Some should be simply gay or straight. Modularity is great for efficient programming and maximizing profits, but not so good to paint a picture of a character - the primary focus of an RPG.

Took the words out of my mouth...

A. Awesome OP...
B. High fives all around to the devs for their courage and guts to push whats right.
C. The bisexual romances in DA:O felt natural and fitting of the characters. The bisexual romances in DA2 did not (save Isabella). They felt like they were implanted for the sake of being implanted, not because it fit the character.

[konokonohamaru]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’m not old and I’m not young, I’m kind of stuck somewhere in the middle which might explain why I don’t quite see the serious hang ups here. Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you. I also don’t quite understand why you have to change the way you act around straight women or gay men, most people can handle rejection… they’ll be a little miffed (+10 or so rivalry in game terms) but, it’s nothing world shattering.

Perhaps though, my own bisexuality has flavored the way I think about intimate relationships.

Are we talking real life or in a game?

In the game, I wouldn't say it's a huge hangup, but it's a minor irritation, and I think the game would have been better if everyone had a pre-defined sexual preference.  I would have had no problems if Anders was straight up gay, although straight females might take issue with the fact that their only option is Fenris.

In real life, on the other hand, not everyone handles rejection nicely, and you do have to be a little careful how you act around people who could potentially be attracted to you.  This is especially important in a work environment, since "+10 rivalry" can actually cause some problems when you can't just walk away from the person and ignore them.  I think adventuring companions are rather similar to coworkers, so in some sense the analogy carries through, though I'm not trying to make too big a deal out of it

[Inquisitor Recon]

naruhodo wrote...
Sure, it's implied that the continued inclusion of LGB characters would be great for making our minority visible and included in a proportionally fair way,

Proportionally fair? If we are going by statistics here all of the LIs would likely be straight.

Most players get nothing out of this. So why should I applaud Bioware for what boils down to using development time and resources to pander to a small audience? I think I have good reason to be frusterated by it all.

[AngelicMachinery]

konokonohamaru wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I’m not old and I’m not young, I’m kind of stuck somewhere in the middle which might explain why I don’t quite see the serious hang ups here. Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you. I also don’t quite understand why you have to change the way you act around straight women or gay men, most people can handle rejection… they’ll be a little miffed (+10 or so rivalry in game terms) but, it’s nothing world shattering.

Perhaps though, my own bisexuality has flavored the way I think about intimate relationships.

Are we talking real life or in a game?

In the game, I wouldn't say it's a huge hangup, but it's a minor irritation, and I think the game would have been better if everyone had a pre-defined sexual preference.  I would have had no problems if Anders was straight up gay, although straight females might take issue with the fact that their only option is Fenris.

In real life, on the other hand, not everyone handles rejection nicely, and you do have to be a little careful how you act around people who could potentially be attracted to you.  This is especially important in a work environment, since "+10 rivalry" can actually cause some problems when you can't just walk away from the person and ignore them.  I think adventuring companions are rather similar to coworkers, so in some sense the analogy carries through, though I'm not trying to make too big a deal out of it

Personally,  unlike you I LIKE the idea that every party member is bi in some sense.  I do think it could be handle better by making each romance a bit more personal outside of the simple switching of genders,  but, for the most part this could be said about DAO as well.  Sure Leilana and Zevran feel bi,  but, truth be told we know more about the two of them personally to draw our conclussions.  We have what... six or seven conversations with each companion in DA2 over the plethora that were available in Origins.

I was talking in real life for the most part, and dating in the work place is messy business no matter how you cut it... straight,  gay, or bi.  Though I notice the fallout tends to happen after the relationship,  not because of someone turning the other person down.  You're mileage of course may vary. 

[augustburnt]

naruhodo wrote...

This thread completely derailed from celebrating inclusion/visibility of minorities in Dragon Age to a discussion of what good writing would make romancing look like in a DA game.

I don't think the OP made any comments/asserted any opinions about the writing of the romance system being good OR bad in DA:O/DA2, she was just thanking Bioware for inclusion.

I know there are plenty of threads similar to this, but since everyone here is now talking about what the romance system in DA2 SHOULD have been, I made a new thread specifically on that topic:

http://social.biowar...1/index/6936400

homosexuality isnt a minority group anymore... name one group that is in mainstream commniation more than homosexuals... honest to God, this is why I have a hard time taking most homosexuals seriously, too many cry about how hard it is even when they keep getting their way.

[naruhodo]

ReconTeam wrote...

naruhodo wrote...
Sure, it's implied that the continued inclusion of LGB characters would be great for making our minority visible and included in a proportionally fair way,

Proportionally fair? If we are going by statistics here all of the LIs would likely be straight.

Most players get nothing out of this. So why should I applaud Bioware for what boils down to using development time and resources to pander to a small audience? I think I have good reason to be frusterated by it all.

It's virtually impossible in this day and age to find accurate statistics about the proportion LGB people in the population, but most published studies I've read have found between 4-17% of the population reports being something other than straight. That proportion easily allows for 1 or 2 LIs in a Bioware game who aren't straight. The thing with all the Hawksexuals in DA2 is kind of a different issue heh.

Think of all the other games out there where all the characters are straight. Dragon Age is one of the few exceptions to this, and I was talking about the proportions of LBG people in all video games that have sexual characters, not just DA. If DA is considered in the context of all video games, the proportions aren't really equal to the number of LBG people out there.

Modifié par naruhodo, 05 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Stevebo]

Great post by the OP.

As a straight male I find it great to see developers working to take into account a part of their audience whereas until now and still many ways in society alienate. I think their writing abilities in creating more "variety/personable" love interests of different sexual orientation will only get better over time, it may not be perfect but it is definitely a step in the right direction.

[naruhodo]

augustburnt wrote...

homosexuality isnt a minority group anymore... name one group that is in mainstream commniation more than homosexuals... honest to God, this is why I have a hard time taking most homosexuals seriously, too many cry about how hard it is even when they keep getting their way.

Lol, I think you don't really understand the commonly used definition of a "minority." A minority group is a group that has less members than the majority. There are less LGB people than there are straight people.

A "social minority" can mean a group that is marginalized by society. I never said that LBG people have it so hard, I wasn't "whining." It is a fact prejudice and marginalization still exists, in some places more than others. Some LGB people are lucky enough to usually experience relatively little prejudice, and that's great, but that's not true everywhere.

What you're saying is kind of similar to saying that racial prejudice doesn't exist any more, and no offense, but that's such an ignorant comment that it's pretty lulsy

[Canadish]

Again, great post OP.
Its a shame the Romance options were the only thing the developers stood their ground on.
I just wish they were written better...*sigh*
*goes and plays Origins again*

[Masako52]

It's annoying at how such a nice letter by the OP attracts angry straight men who whine about gay people.

I'm also a lesbian and playing Dragon Age makes me feel good about myself. I love fantasy and I love video games, and it's not so often non-straight people get recognized.

And frankly, it's not all that unrealistic that the four romance options are bisexual. Modern psychology speculates that more people are "situationally bisexual", which means that under the right circumstances, a straight person could fall in love with a same-sex person, or a gay person could fall in love with an opposite-sex person. In many ancient societies, think of Greece and Japan, for example, it was very common for men to take a boy lover. It was socially acceptable and common.

Besides, Aveline seems to be straight, and Sebastian is straight. There you go.

Making completely gay and completely straight characters might be something Bioware might want to look at in the future, but frankly, that just creates unnecessary barriers. To make the game as interactive as possible, why not let the player decide who is "straight", "gay" or "bi"? Sexual orientation has nothing to with personality, so what's up?

[Gibb_Shepard]

It's nice that DA2 helped you come out OP, but i don't at all agree with how they handled DA2 bisexuals.

@ Masako: Saying sexual orientation has nothing to do with personality is false. I know many like to believe that, but it's just simply not true.

[ink07]

Masako52 wrote...

 In many ancient societies, think of Greece and Japan, for example, it was very common for men to take a boy lover. It was socially acceptable and common.

Besides, Aveline seems to be straight, and Sebastian is straight. There you go.

Making completely gay and completely straight characters might be something Bioware might want to look at in the future, but frankly, that just creates unnecessary barriers. To make the game as interactive as possible, why not let the player decide who is "straight", "gay" or "bi"? Sexual orientation has nothing to with personality, so what's up?

Hmmm... sorry to burst your bubble but, yes it was very common for them to take "boy lovers" (I like how you fail to mention the pedophilic aspect of those relationships) only because women were considered 2nd class people. A sad fact that took thousands of years to overcome and is still present in many ways (think 3rd world countries, misoginisctic attitudes an even language and law). I think that is an issue you are trivilaizing a little bit too much out of ignorance or idealization.

And also yes, social situation is also present, but it has a lot more to do with the status of the human race as a whole and the modern society we live in. We as humans are no longer compelled to reproduction for the simple means of survival, so attraction (sexual to a certain degree) occurs in many forms and can even be a life style choice. Whatever the case I don't really think all these psychological findings should be the concern of this kind of fantasy world. I am gald that you feel good about the option of homosexuality in the game, I don't think anyone (anyone sane that is) is arguing that it should be taken out or dismissed, only better realized as a game feature.

It's fine if you think that is an OK feature for the game, but I think it is also very telling the way people have rejected this notion because it seems lazy and again a little tad unrealistic and yes, sexuality has things to do with personality, because for better or worse our society is very much based on ideals and concepts established around our sexual behaviour.

Modifié par ink07, 05 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[Horus Blackheart]

may this topic has degenarated fast. The op was so poinent to.

[JustTheFacts]

It's annoying at how such a nice letter by the OP attracts angry straight men who whine about gay people.

In fact, it's posts like yours that attract angry heterosexual people to take issue.

Modern psychology speculates that more people are "situationally bisexual", which means that under the right circumstances, a straight person could fall in love with a same-sex person, or a gay person could fall in love with an opposite-sex person.

 
It's this pro-homosexual agenda that I take issue with. You assert the "everybody's gay" argument and expect nobody else to care. Uh, I do care. I'm heterosexual - I don't like being told that I am secretly homosexual or could be homosexual "under the right circumstances".

I love the attempt to add some credibility to your statement by saying that "modern psychology speculates". Guess what, "modern psychology" speculates pretty much every imaginable thing under the sun. I can find a "study" that pushes any finding you could care to please, including some conclusions you would be extremely uncomfortable with.

In many ancient societies, think of Greece and Japan, for example, it was very common for men to take a boy lover. It was socially acceptable and common.

Yes, a boy lover. I suppose you want pedophelia to be in the next Dragon Age game, or perhaps in this one in the upcoming DLC?

Whatever you intended by that comment, I just want to say that you shouldn't be pushing your agenda on forums dedicated to VIDEO GAMES. Like the OP, I am very pleased they allow players to pursue homosexual romances in this game. That does not mean these forums are a place to force your beliefs that everyone is gay and pedophelia is okay on these forums.

Making completely gay and completely straight characters might be something Bioware might want to look at in the future,

Or maybe people can just stfu and roleplay a bit. You don't have to view Anders, Isabella, etc. as "bi". You can view him as straight if you play a female character and homosexual if you play a male character. Bioware kept the options open because they can reuse all the dialogue and scenes.

[Annora]

JustTheFacts wrote...

It's this pro-homosexual agenda that I take issue with. You assert the "everybody's gay" argument and expect nobody else to care. Uh, I do care. I'm heterosexual - I don't like being told that I am secretly homosexual or could be homosexual "under the right circumstances".

The poster you quoted did not say all people are secretly gay, so I'm confused why that statement seems to anger you so. "More people" is not equal to "all people."

All this talk of pro-gay agendas and homosexual romances being thrust upon the poor unsuspecting PWMs, it's enough to make someone laugh.

[wyvvern]

[off-topic post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 avril 2011 - 04:44 .

[not so anon]

I'm glad this thread has been so well received by so many. I have found that a few of the posts in it have made me.... uncomfortable. But that's to be expected.

I weighed in once before on the Hawke-sexuality debate. But I'll add to it again. I think in a perfect game we would have umpteen companions to choose from. And they would all be perfectly written and have in-depth background stories and different identities and such. And then something like Hawke-sexuality wouldn't have to exist. But we don't really have that yet... and so if given the choice of playing a game where those like me are marginalized and given only one or no options, or playing a game like DA 2, I'll pick DA 2.

[skunkdoctor]

[off-topic post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 avril 2011 - 04:44 .

[Sanguinerin]

I just wanted to give my congratulations to you, not so anon. It's a wonderful thing to be comfortable with yourself, and it's a wonderful thing that either Dragon Age title could help you feel that way. I do believe that more options are becoming available through different gaming companies and other mediums, but BioWare--in my opinion--seems to actively champion being all-inclusive.

It's not always easy to make posts that are so personally involved, so I'm glad that you felt that you could do that here.

[Edge2177]

It always comes back to Anders and sophrize buttsechs. Likely the biggest flaw was that his 'gay' romance was the easiest to initiate and earliest in the 2nd act.

I suspect if not for that, we'd have a lot less whiny prople.

[Hyper Cutter]

I don't know why everyone's acting like DA2 (or even DA:O) is the first
game ever to have same-sex romances in it. Jade Empire did it before
them, hell even KOTOR did, and that's just Bioware. When was The Sims
released, again?

Edge2177 wrote...

It always comes back to Anders and
sophrize buttsechs. Likely the biggest flaw was that his 'gay' romance
was the easiest to initiate and earliest in the 2nd act.

I suspect if not for that, we'd have a lot less whiny prople.

I noticed that too. It really was a terrible design decision on Bioware's part.

BeljoraDien wrote...

Huh? Kanji was most definitely gay.
He had a difficult time coming out, and repressed a stereotypical gay
persona into his sub concious. I'm not going to argue whether P4 handled
it well... but they did deal with it. There are games that I thought
handled such a thing much better, but they're more obscure..

Kanji's bisexual, if anything, because he's clearly attracted to women, or at least a woman.

LooksLikeTrouble wrote...

Isnt David Gaider that forum trolling writer whose quotes from this forum are circulating the internet and making Bioware out to look like a joke?

Yeah, that's him.

Masako52 wrote...
Besides, Aveline seems to be straight, and Sebastian is straight. There you go.

Aveline's not romanceable, and you know it. Though she'd be a vastly better option than the existing ones.

Hell, I'd rather bang my sister than "promiscuous idiot" or "elf too stupid to live".

[skunkdoctor]

Hell, I'd rather bang my sister than "promiscuous idiot" or "elf too stupid to live".

Whatever floats your boat.

[Akka le Vil]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Sexuality seems like such a tiny portion of a person’s personality. It simply dictates what gender you find to be appealing. Sure, this can change the way a person interacts socially, but, so can any number of little thing alter the way you interact with the world around you.

What gender you find to be appealing is a "tiny" portion of your personnality ?
Hu...
Not quite likely. Serioiusly, just look at how society works, and see just how much this "tiny part" actually has a HUGE impact on how people interact. It seems a case of a fish forgetting the water it's in.

Masako52 wrote...

It's annoying at how such a nice letter by the OP attracts angry straight men who whine about gay people.

Actually, I've seen nearly none of this, the large majority of posts praise the OP, so I don't really see which ones you're referring.
The critics have overwhelmingly be directed toward the writing of the romances for one part, and the fact that having everyone bi just wasn't believable or that relative sexual orientation was lazy and not believable too, on the other.

Your post, on the other hand, is the kind that provokes the answers about which you complain. Kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 05 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Centauri2002]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I actually meant that as a reply to another post,  not the opening poster.  Believe me, I wasn't trying to downplay the hardship...  though,  I suppose it could have been read as such.

Not to worry, I wasn't interpretting your words in that way. I just kind of went off on my own little monologue. Your words just sparked the thoughts. >.>

Edited to say: Hoo boy, I've seen the "homosexual agenda" term used in this thread, which is an immediate indicator for me to get the heck out of here. I suspect the topic will devolve further in the next few pages. *flees*

Modifié par centauri2002, 05 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[MrTijger]

centauri2002 wrote...

Edited to say: Hoo boy, I've seen the "homosexual agenda" term used in this thread, which is an immediate indicator for me to get the heck out of here. I suspect the topic will devolve further in the next few pages. *flees*

Yeah well, you can always count on at least one Neanderthal to make an appearance, unfortunately.