126 réponses à ce sujet

[graavigala85]

I just finished the game for second time now and I tried to play as complete opposite to what I played for first time so I would have little ground to what Im saying.

Both times your sibling dies and that is ment to be something deep and traumating to see your sister/brother die. I would agree on that but the characters who appear with you are nothing but empty shells running around healing you or doing more damage to enemies. 
So when either one of them dies it doesnt matter, they are no one important to you. But when you have to kill Avelines husband that has more impact to you than seeing your brother/sister die. Why? Because you are given atleast a little change to get to know the character!

Second big trauma that happens is when you are in deeproads and your sibling dies in there to Corruption or is recruited by Warden or just goes and joins the Templar or is dragged to Circle. So what? Then my biggest concern was that the bastards took my gear! MY FRIGGING STAFF OF PARLANTHA WAS TAKEN!!!!

When your mother dies that wasnt so much sad but just nasty, whole Frankenstein thing is really creepy thing in general and in here Bioware did manage to make it work but not in the way it was ment to be. You have no connection to your mother and I really didnt give one damn about losing her because she was already shadow to be seen rarely.

You can have no impact on the ending what so ever. You are forced to choose between two factions who you have very little interaction with, almost zero with the mages. Maybe one or two quests with the actual Circle itself and only thing you hear and see about the circle mages is that all are crazy bloodmages... Ye you really want to join those ****s?
Whole time in the game everyone says that Templars are the bad choice but when you it comes to the end even the mage leader goes ape**** with blodmage and you are left with the "wrong" choice to join those ****s. Even your teammates say its bad idea expect the bloodmage Elf and Anders, but I really dont give crap about his oppinions.
So why would I want to care to join up with people who I have no idea who they are? With templars you atleast had some jobs to do so you got little more info about them and their mtives but the mages are left in the dark. I didnt even know who the Mage leader was until the begining of Act3. And he was supposed to be main character of game! Way to go and introduce main characters to a game Bioware. In future  why not hold of and show us the hero of the game after the end credits?

So in the end the story feels empty and there is really nothing in the mainstory that makes you care what you do. You are nothing but delivery guy, sword to hire, mailman of death.

All these shortcomings could have been avoided with by just adding few more actual quests and less "Bring this finger to that man". More time on actually introducing the characters who are in the game is needed and not just giving some quick mentioning of them during random encounter.

[Rockworm503]

I was worried about the family thing.
First time Carver died in the deep roads and so my second time through I decide to keep Bethany off the party when I go there.... She just gets sent to the circle and thats it.. It doesn't help that mama gets killed no matter what you do.
Whats the point of caring for anyone if you know their gone no matter what you do?
I don't mind playing a game where there is no player choice (RDR and Uncharted are great games that have a linear story) but don't take that choice away and pretend I still have it!! thats just insulting!

[Slackr730]

lol this is win

[Foolsfolly]

So when either one of them dies it doesnt matter, they are no one important to you. But when you have to kill Avelines husband that has more impact to you than seeing your brother/sister die. Why? Because you are given atleast a little change to get to know the character!

Yeah, that's weird. Killing your sibling in the Deep Roads completely lacked the emotion of killing this guy I just met. It's odd. Same with the first sibling death actually, they just hit level two and have only said a dozen lines. Why should care that they died?

So in the end the story feels empty and there is really nothing in the mainstory that makes you care what you do. You are nothing but delivery guy, sword to hire, mailman of death.

I generally agree.

I see nothing in your post I can argue with. And many of these things I've said myself. Throw in reusing maps, reusing DA:O music (there's like two new songs), stripping companions of armor options, and the fact that romances feel less because you rarely talk to your Love Interest and you have the whole game summed up.

There's good bits. I enjoy a voiced protag, the dialogue wheel, the combat system, health potions come in one size now, skill trees, dialogue, companion banter, etc. But yeah, all that's just icing on a cake that's partially coconut cake and partially carrot cake*.

*That works better if you're like me and dislike coconut and carrot cake, insert two types of cake you dislike.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, I pretty much disagree with the entire OP. I felt a connection to the family members who survived Lothering, I didn't give a damn about Wesley and was glad he died, and I felt like I was a kind of Templar free agent in my warrior runs, with more than enough access to their leaders. How much talking do you need, exactly? There are several conversations between Hawke and his sibling, or Hawke and Leandra. The siblings comment on events if you bring them on missions or even if you just walk around Kirkwall (party banter). I guess we just see it differently.

Even on my first playthrough, when I was mostly negative towards the game, I felt involved in the events... yes, a lot of them have similar or identical outcomes regardless of your decisions, but it's not the destination, it's the journey. Plus, many quests have completely different outcomes. Have you ever sided with Ser Varnell and Mother Petrice? You even get an extra quest for doing that... and apparently it has a branching path (only played it once, so I have no idea what the other option for that quest led to).

My advice: don't give up on the game until you are certain you don't like it. And if you already are... well that's fine too.

[graavigala85]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Well, I pretty much disagree with the entire OP. I felt a connection to the family members who survived Lothering, I didn't give a damn about Wesley and was glad he died, and I felt like I was a kind of Templar free agent in my warrior runs, with more than enough access to their leaders. How much talking do you need, exactly? There are several conversations between Hawke and his sibling, or Hawke and Leandra. The siblings comment on events if you bring them on missions or even if you just walk around Kirkwall (party banter). I guess we just see it differently.

Even on my first playthrough, when I was mostly negative towards the game, I felt involved in the events... yes, a lot of them have similar or identical outcomes regardless of your decisions, but it's not the destination, it's the journey. Plus, many quests have completely different outcomes. Have you ever sided with Ser Varnell and Mother Petrice? You even get an extra quest for doing that... and apparently it has a branching path (only played it once, so I have no idea what the other option for that quest led to).

My advice: don't give up on the game until you are certain you don't like it. And if you already are... well that's fine too.

Lets take a real life example: You walk on street, you see random people there, you dont care about them (ofcourse you help if there is somekind of accident but thats not the point!) Why dont you care about them? Because you have never seen them before. You have no connection to those people.

Throwing you in the middle of everything is indeed a good way to start a story, and I mean the Varrics over-the-top story was fun and great. But when he said "lets start at the begining" I had hoped to actually get to know the characters little more by taking you to the time BEFORE blight.

And I dont hate the game. This topic is not about hating or liking the game so lets not even go there

[Woodstock-TC]

woried about family, woried about mages (as a mage), woried about myself getting struck in the conflict.
i worried quite a lot. actually more than in DAO, as i felt there quite quick invulnerable.

[Icy Magebane]

@graavigala85: While I agree that I didn't have any feelings towards the first sibling that died, the survivor played a rather large role in the story. My first game included Carver. Can you seriously say that you didn't have any emotional investment in that character by the time the Deep Roads expedition came around? That you didn't know anything about them? (and yeah, I was angry that I lost Hayder's Razor when I sent him to the Wardens )

Then I started doing Warrior runs... at first, Carver's death stung, having grown attached to him on mage runs. But than eventually faded because I realized that being a Templar is more fun than any other role I've come across. Sorry Carver. Now, when I antagonized Anders in Act 1 to the point where I couldn't justify taking him into the Deep Roads? Now that sucked! Poor Bethany... even though I knew it was coming, it just didn't feel right. Maybe my imagination is too active or maybe I've just played the game too many times, but I got a lot out of the story.

Also... sorry if I misunderstood the topic. It just sounded like a rather broad criticism. But if this is only about the beginning... I don't really know what to say to that. I have no preference for seeing the game before Lothering fell or not.

[nicethugbert]

Speak for yourself. I did not have this problem at all.

Also, DA2's story is just like DA:O.

DA:O, kill Archdemon, can't be avoided. DA2 kill Meredith, can't be avoided.

DA:O, kill Loghain or recuit him to fight Archdemon. DA2 kill Anders or recruit him to fight Meredith.

DA:O, do Morrigan's ritual or don't. DA2, side with mages and Cullen lets you go when Meredith dies or side with templars and all the Templars bow to you when Meredith dies.

DA:O how you treat various NPCs determines if they side with you for the final battle. DA2, how you treat various companions determines if they side with you for the final battle.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[Danjaru]

nicethugbert wrote...

Speak for yourself. I did not have this problem at all.

Also, DA2's story is just like DA:O.

DA:O, kill Archdemon, can't be avoided. DA2 kill Meredith, can't be avoided.

DA:O, kill Loghain or recuit him to fight Archdemon. DA2 kill Anders or recruit him to fight Meredith.

DA:O, do Morrigan's ritual or don't. DA2, side with mages and Cullen lets you go when Meredith dies or side with templars and all the Templars bow to you when Meredith dies.

DA:O how you treat various NPCs determines if they side with you for the final battle. DA2, how you treat various companions determines if they side with you for the final battle.

DA:O Was about the Journey to the Archdemon not necessarily about the fight with the Archdemon itself. While DA2 was about small dissjointed stories that didn't really make you care.

DA:O Spare Loghain and loose your first companion that you might've got a connection with. DA2, Spare anders and loose a preachy DLC character.

DA:O, realize that Morrigan had other intentions, sleep with her and she helps you and both Wardens survive, don't and she leaves and a Warden dies. DA2, choose either side, get the exact same result.

DA:O, treat various factions in a certain way through long story arcs and they might or might not help you (most of those choices being rather major btw). DA2, do 1 choice in a short sidequest and they might help you.

See the differense?

Modifié par Danjaru, 04 avril 2011 - 11:35 .

[Persephone]

Danjaru wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Speak for yourself. I did not have this problem at all.

Also, DA2's story is just like DA:O.

DA:O, kill Archdemon, can't be avoided. DA2 kill Meredith, can't be avoided.

DA:O, kill Loghain or recuit him to fight Archdemon. DA2 kill Anders or recruit him to fight Meredith.

DA:O, do Morrigan's ritual or don't. DA2, side with mages and Cullen lets you go when Meredith dies or side with templars and all the Templars bow to you when Meredith dies.

DA:O how you treat various NPCs determines if they side with you for the final battle. DA2, how you treat various companions determines if they side with you for the final battle.

DA:O Was about the Journey to the Archdemon not necessarily about the fight with the Archdemon itself. While DA2 was about small dissjointed stories that didn't really make you care.

DA:O Spare Loghain and loose your first companion that you might've got a connection with. DA2, Spare anders and loose a preachy DLC character.

DA:O, realize that Morrigan had other intentions, sleep with her and she helps you and both Wardens survive, don't and she leaves and a Warden dies. DA2, choose either side, get the exact same result.

DA:O, treat various factions in a certain way through long story arcs and they might or might not help you. DA2, do 1 choice in a short sidequest and they might help you.

See the differense?

DA2 certainly wasn't disjointed, one only has to pay attention to see the strings connecting the tale. They are there and I love the subtlety. And I cared PLENTY.

Anders was NOT a DLC character and I most certainly had a connection with him. Different ones through different playthroughs actually. As for preachy: Wynne is preachy. Anders is anything but preachy. Extremist? Yes. A fanatic? Yes. Preachy? Not so much.

The longer faction quests always end up in recruitment in DAO. The only differences are the models. Werewolves or elves? Dwarves and or Golems? Very linear.

[Vormaerin]

Danjaru,

Yeah, you liked one and didn't like the other. Because all of that is pretty subjective.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 04 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[Vormaerin]

Persephone wrote...


Anders was NOT a DLC character and I most certainly had a connection with him. Different ones through different playthroughs actually. As for preachy: Wynne is preachy. Anders is anything but preachy. Extremist? Yes. A fanatic? Yes. Preachy? Not so much.

He's talking about Sebastian.  Sebastian bails on you if you spare Anders.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 04 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[Darth Krytie]

Persephone wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Speak for yourself. I did not have this problem at all.

Also, DA2's story is just like DA:O.

DA:O, kill Archdemon, can't be avoided. DA2 kill Meredith, can't be avoided.

DA:O, kill Loghain or recuit him to fight Archdemon. DA2 kill Anders or recruit him to fight Meredith.

DA:O, do Morrigan's ritual or don't. DA2, side with mages and Cullen lets you go when Meredith dies or side with templars and all the Templars bow to you when Meredith dies.

DA:O how you treat various NPCs determines if they side with you for the final battle. DA2, how you treat various companions determines if they side with you for the final battle.

DA:O Was about the Journey to the Archdemon not necessarily about the fight with the Archdemon itself. While DA2 was about small dissjointed stories that didn't really make you care.

DA:O Spare Loghain and loose your first companion that you might've got a connection with. DA2, Spare anders and loose a preachy DLC character.

DA:O, realize that Morrigan had other intentions, sleep with her and she helps you and both Wardens survive, don't and she leaves and a Warden dies. DA2, choose either side, get the exact same result.

DA:O, treat various factions in a certain way through long story arcs and they might or might not help you. DA2, do 1 choice in a short sidequest and they might help you.

See the differense?

DA2 certainly wasn't disjointed, one only has to pay attention to see the strings connecting the tale. They are there and I love the subtlety. And I cared PLENTY.

Anders was NOT a DLC character and I most certainly had a connection with him. Different ones through different playthroughs actually. As for preachy: Wynne is preachy. Anders is anything but preachy. Extremist? Yes. A fanatic? Yes. Preachy? Not so much.

The longer faction quests always end up in recruitment in DAO. The only differences are the models. Werewolves or elves? Dwarves and or Golems? Very linear.

OP was referring to Sebastian as a preachy DLC character, not Anders. (Spare anders and you lose Sebastian)

[Danjaru]

Persephone wrote...

DA2 certainly wasn't disjointed, one only has to pay attention to see the strings connecting the tale. They are there and I love the subtlety. And I cared PLENTY.

Anders was NOT a DLC character and I most certainly had a connection with him. Different ones through different playthroughs actually. As for preachy: Wynne is preachy. Anders is anything but preachy. Extremist? Yes. A fanatic? Yes. Preachy? Not so much.

The longer faction quests always end up in recruitment in DAO. The only differences are the models. Werewolves or elves? Dwarves and or Golems? Very linear.

As others have pointed out, Sebastian is the DLC character you loose if you spare Anders.

And there's a huge differense between Werewolves and Elf Archers, Mages or Templars, Golems or Dwarves. And the fact that it actually makes an impact on the world, revealing the potentially dangerous Golem technology, spare the Mages, siding with the Werewolves or the Elves. Instead of I think 1 quest where you could choose to either kill the NPC (Zevran) or help him.

[Vormaerin]

Danjaru wrote...

And there's a huge differense between Werewolves and Elf Archers, Mages or Templars, Golems or Dwarves. And the fact that it actually makes an impact on the world, revealing the potentially dangerous Golem technology, spare the Mages, siding with the Werewolves or the Elves. Instead of I think 1 quest where you could choose to either kill the NPC (Zevran) or help him.

pft.   Those guys are practically irrelevant.


Anyway, you are full of it if you think that you only make one decision.  You can complain if you want that your decisions aren't ridiculously over the top in significance like Origins, but you certainly make a lot of important decisions.

1)  Save Feynriel or not
2)  Save Ella or not
3)  Wipe out Dalish elves or not
4)  Spare Fenris' sister or not
5)  Zevran
6) Become Viscount or not
7) Duel Arishok or let him go
8) Spare the magistrate's son or not
9) Kill Castillon or not

I think things play out differently if you agree with Varnell, but I've not done that so I could be wrong.   There's other NPCs you can save or not also.   Your sibling could be dead, a Gray Warden, or alive and well depending on your choices, too.

[Icy Magebane]

If you side with Varnell, the rest of the Act is quite different... as well as the scene with Seamus's death. Plus, there's a bonus mission you pick up.

[NaclynE]

Vormaerin wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

And there's a huge differense between Werewolves and Elf Archers, Mages or Templars, Golems or Dwarves. And the fact that it actually makes an impact on the world, revealing the potentially dangerous Golem technology, spare the Mages, siding with the Werewolves or the Elves. Instead of I think 1 quest where you could choose to either kill the NPC (Zevran) or help him.

pft.   Those guys are practically irrelevant.


Anyway, you are full of it if you think that you only make one decision.  You can complain if you want that your decisions aren't ridiculously over the top in significance like Origins, but you certainly make a lot of important decisions.

1)  Save Feynriel or not
2)  Save Ella or not
3)  Wipe out Dalish elves or not
4)  Spare Fenris' sister or not
5)  Zevran
6) Become Viscount or not
7) Duel Arishok or let him go
8) Spare the magistrate's son or not
9) Kill Castillon or not

I think things play out differently if you agree with Varnell, but I've not done that so I could be wrong.   There's other NPCs you can save or not also.   Your sibling could be dead, a Gray Warden, or alive and well depending on your choices, too.

I totally agree with the main subject. My Hawke on both playthroughs didn't act moarnful over the moarnful. However I played my Hawke on my first later as "I hold every mage responsible since a mage was responsible for the death of my mother!" which I know my Hawke dictated to Bethany. However it seemed like I did seem to run around a develop a persona. It was more like "Oh im just making friends along the way" which disappointed me. I was expecting my character to run after Fenris after he regretted haveing sex with my female Hawke but my female Hawke felt dead and took the situation as "I guess I was a one night stand?" .

Yeah sure you have decisions to make but these would seem to either factor in maybe a 3 but most seem to be for an excuse to get extra coin. However somethings do cross over like the werewolf thing or Amaranthine from Origions and Awakening that kind of sort of factor in but as more of a fan thing.

I think the main thing is their trying to set this up for a 3 while I'm all grumble cakes about.

[Danjaru]

Vormaerin wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

And there's a huge differense between Werewolves and Elf Archers, Mages or Templars, Golems or Dwarves. And the fact that it actually makes an impact on the world, revealing the potentially dangerous Golem technology, spare the Mages, siding with the Werewolves or the Elves. Instead of I think 1 quest where you could choose to either kill the NPC (Zevran) or help him.

pft.   Those guys are practically irrelevant.


Anyway, you are full of it if you think that you only make one decision.  You can complain if you want that your decisions aren't ridiculously over the top in significance like Origins, but you certainly make a lot of important decisions.

1)  Save Feynriel or not
2)  Save Ella or not
3)  Wipe out Dalish elves or not
4)  Spare Fenris' sister or not
5)  Zevran
6) Become Viscount or not
7) Duel Arishok or let him go
8) Spare the magistrate's son or not
9) Kill Castillon or not

I think things play out differently if you agree with Varnell, but I've not done that so I could be wrong.   There's other NPCs you can save or not also.   Your sibling could be dead, a Gray Warden, or alive and well depending on your choices, too.

I was comparing the decisions for NPC's that come to the final battle.....

Otherwise there would be a few A4 of text to show all the decisions throughout Origins..

[Andronic0s]

Agree with the OP in everything exept I did felt attached to Bethany which makes it more annoying when she leaves for the circle/wardens/dies so early, in 6 years she only sent me one letter! and I cant even go visit her once? pfff

As for the thing I can change that are mentioned by Vormaerin, quite honestly none of those has any impact, those npcs had already fulfilled their part in the story so they where disposable, as such you get to choose whether they live and vanish or die and vanish.

Also I had no idea you can let Castillion go? I was 99% sure the game was going to force that fight down my throat as usual, it makes me quite happy to know then that it was my decision to kill that slaver :-)

[Icy Magebane]

Basically, the decisions affect the immediate future rather than the far, and mostly unrealized future. I mean, yeah it was cool in DA:O to raze the Dalish camp and defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, but those decisions didn't lead anywhere. Sure, they matter in our imaginations, but that future most likely won't matter to the rest of the DA series. We'll either see retcons or cameos... so what's the big deal?

In DA2, the changes are more immediate, and some of them carry over to subsequent acts. It's easier to just write the story of Kirkwall than try to create something that reflects changes to all of Thedas. I don't see a problem with this. It's a hell of a lot better than if Bioware over-extended themselves by creating several world-changing events and then not being able to fully represent them in the next game.

Those supposedly irrelevant DA2 choices completely alter the tone of the story when seen as a whole. And even though we might never see Kirkwall again, the story of that city is different each time Varric tells it.

[Vormaerin]

Andronic0s wrote...

As for the thing I can change that are mentioned by Vormaerin, quite honestly none of those has any impact, those npcs had already fulfilled their part in the story so they where disposable, as such you get to choose whether they live and vanish or die and vanish.

All the decisions in Origins were disposable, too.    Kill that french biotch to save the kid?  Kill Connor?  It doesn't change anything.   Which dorf is plugging the space on the throne?  Never matters again in game.   Nothing you do or say in Denerim and the Landsmeet makes a lick of difference to anything except which talking head spouts the plot point.

You get a very trivial difference in the end battle as a result of a couple decisions.  Purely cosmetic.  There's more difference between siding with Meredith and siding with Orsino than anything you can decide in Origins as far as the end fight sequence goes.

All you are saying is that you think its more cool who save or kill someone with a title than an "ordinary" person.   Personally, I think its kind of ridiculous how everyone in Fereldan...elf, dwarf, or human....is completely incompetent and unable to do the simplest thing without my character holding their hand.   No wonder Varric comments that the stories out of Fereldan are even more unbelievable than the ones he invents.

[Danjaru]

Vormaerin wrote...

All the decisions in Origins were disposable, too.    Kill that french biotch to save the kid?  Kill Connor?  It doesn't change anything.   Which dorf is plugging the space on the throne?  Never matters again in game.   Nothing you do or say in Denerim and the Landsmeet makes a lick of difference to anything except which talking head spouts the plot point.

You get a very trivial difference in the end battle as a result of a couple decisions.  Purely cosmetic.  There's more difference between siding with Meredith and siding with Orsino than anything you can decide in Origins as far as the end fight sequence goes.

All you are saying is that you think its more cool who save or kill someone with a title than an "ordinary" person.   Personally, I think its kind of ridiculous how everyone in Fereldan...elf, dwarf, or human....is completely incompetent and unable to do the simplest thing without my character holding their hand.   No wonder Varric comments that the stories out of Fereldan are even more unbelievable than the ones he invents.

Wait Whaaaat? No matter who you choose in the end you fight the Exact same bosses, and the exact same things happen no matter what. That huge "choice" in the end is said to have an impact but you never actually see it. To say that one of the most hollow choices in DA2 has more impact than all the ones done in Origins is quite false.

[Vormaerin]

Name *one* meaningful difference in the entire end sequence of Denerim fighting that results from anything you do in Origins.

Nothing you do in Origins changes anything of substance except the epilogue and which cartoon says the plot speech.

[Miashi]

My caring turnoff was not so much about the fatality and the fact that any outcome was the same for siblings and parent, but more of the below-par voice acting that was borderline unconvincing. Merrill sounded way more convincing when Pol died than any of Hawke's family members (including Hawke).