126 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Icy Magebane wrote...

If you side with Varnell, the rest of the Act is quite different... as well as the scene with Seamus's death. Plus, there's a bonus mission you pick up.

maybe i will try that this time, I didn't think it was an option.

As for the original post, it took me a few times playing with Carver and Bethany.  Since I lose them at the end of Act 1, even if they survive Lothering, I try to use them.  So I get to know them by taking them around and seeing their dialogues in Cutscenes.
First time I played with Carver a couple of times (I really love mages) and got to see him as a templar and a GW.
The previous time I played with Bethany, she went to the circle, Hawke sided with the templars for all kinds of extra drama to the scenes and the scene where you tell Meredith to take a hike, she's NOT killing your baby sister was all sorts of win.
Bethany even gave Hawke a hug   It was very sweet and felt like a natural family bond. 
With Carver the pissing matches between him and a male Hawke in Gamlen's home were very enjoyable to me.  I didn't have to worry about getting him to 'like' me because I knew i wouldn't have much opportunity to tip his rivalry to friend.  SO I just acted like an overbearing big brother to him.
And I cried when I saw what happened to Mama Hawke and realized that this time the hero wasn't going to save the day. 
You only get what you put in to something and if you put nothing into the relationships you were presented with, that's not Bioware's fault.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 04 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[Vormaerin]

There are more options in the game than people think. Yeah, it always ends with Anders getting what he wants, but there's a lot you can change along the way. And I'm happier getting a letter from Ella in game saying she's alive and safe than I am with some epilogue slide going "Harrowmont turned out to be a bit of a prat" or whatever.

Honestly, I think part of the reason why the "ending" seemed so abrupt is because most of the consequences got announced or used during gameplay instead of saved for the post-party slide show.

[Danjaru]

Vormaerin wrote...

Name *one* meaningful difference in the entire end sequence of Denerim fighting that results from anything you do in Origins.

Nothing you do in Origins changes anything of substance except the epilogue and which cartoon says the plot speech.

Morrigans ritual?

If you keep Alistair or Loghain?

Then all the allies you get with you depending on what you've chosen up to that point. (which ones you can summon)

And depending on if you choose to help the rest of the City by killing the Generals has a impact on the final battle.

And that's just the final battle and not all the other game experience changing options you had in Origins.

[Vormaerin]

Keeping Alistair vs Loghain is no different than deciding the fate of Anders (and possibly a sibling).

Morrigan's ritual only changes the epilogue. Its not much more significant to gameplay than whether you end up Viscount or are grudgingly allowed to leave by the Templars.

The differences in the summonables is irrelevant. You are going to have a bunch. They make no difference. How is that more significant than "I fight with the templars against some mages" vs "I fight with the mages against some templars" before the boss fights? Or whether you have Zevran and various other companions helping in the final fight or not.


From the moment you tell Eamon "Let's go to Denerim" until the epilogue, nothing you do makes a bit of difference. Its a giant chute straight to the end. The entire 2nd Denerim sequence is completely pointless. No matter how well or poorly you do, you fight Loghain then you fight some darkspawn, then you fight the archdemon. Epilogue.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 04 avril 2011 - 02:06 .

[Axekix]

Andronic0s wrote...

Agree with the OP in everything exept I did felt attached to Bethany which makes it more annoying when she leaves for the circle/wardens/dies so early, in 6 years she only sent me one letter! and I cant even go visit her once? pfff

Yeah that bothered me too.  I liked the relationships you build with your siblings in act 1 (I thought the rivalry with Carver was especially interesting) but then having them written out of the game until the end kinda felt like a cop out.  Based on the way things started, I expected much more development between the siblings, and it just wasn't there.

I thought I'd at least get to talk with Bethany/Carver after Leandra's murder, but apparently not.  I will say though that her death really got under my skin.  That really disturbed me, more so than anything that happened in DAO or the rest of DA2.   So in that sense I suppose Bioware was successful at making me care about her. 

Other than that I do mostly agree with the OP.

[Lithuasil]

In DA2 I have a hard time siding with the templars, if bethany is so much as alive. In Jade Empire, when that girl in the red dress (that I supposedly knew since early childhood) begged me not to sacrifice her for more power, I had a hard time so much as remembering her name.

[Vormaerin]

Axekix wrote...
I thought I'd at least get to talk with Bethany/Carver after Leandra's murder, but apparently not.

I got to talk to Bethany about it when we met up with her as a Gray Warden.   Unfortunately, I don't think I did with her in the Circle.  By that point, Meredith was locking down everything pretty tight, as I recall.  Though apparently Gamlen could talk to her. 

[pingupower]

Lithuasil wrote...

In DA2 I have a hard time siding with the templars, if bethany is so much as alive. In Jade Empire, when that girl in the red dress (that I supposedly knew since early childhood) begged me not to sacrifice her for more power, I had a hard time so much as remembering her name.

Same thing for me. Somehow the templars are bad guys no matter what you are/do. It's a bit weird. Plus I was pissed by the fact you cross path several times with bethany and have no opportunity to free her.
Example: I just beat the Arishok, am champion and so on but my sister cannot go home. Opposing me at this point would be either really bold or crazy. Same thing when she is hostage. I mean come on I am champion of Kirkwall, the templars know exactly that unless they unleash their full army I will beat them.

[Maria Caliban]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

If you side with Varnell, the rest of the Act is quite different... as well as the scene with Seamus's death. Plus, there's a bonus mission you pick up.

maybe i will try that this time, I didn't think it was an option.

You have to play aggressive Hawke.

[Vormaerin]

Oh? I have an option to say "go ahead and kill them" as snarky Hawke. Didn't use it, though, so I don't know where it leads.

[TobiTobsen]

Vormaerin wrote...

Axekix wrote...
I thought I'd at least get to talk with Bethany/Carver after Leandra's murder, but apparently not.

I got to talk to Bethany about it when we met up with her as a Gray Warden.   Unfortunately, I don't think I did with her in the Circle.  By that point, Meredith was locking down everything pretty tight, as I recall.  Though apparently Gamlen could talk to her. 

Talking with her/Carver as a grey warden is nothing more than Hawke saying that their mother is dead and the sibling acknowledges that with an "I know" . Not what I would expext if you meet your brother/sister after three years and your mom just died.

AND everybody besides Hawke seems to be able to visit Carver/Bethany. Just Hawke isn't allowed.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[5ubzer0]

Well, my Hawke cared about money. Alot. Even as the owner of a mansion, she'd search every barrel for another pair of torn trousers...

[Icy Magebane]

Vormaerin wrote...

Oh? I have an option to say "go ahead and kill them" as snarky Hawke. Didn't use it, though, so I don't know where it leads.

After I picked that, the Templar did not trust me, possibly due to my prior involvement with the Qunari, but maybe it's scripted.  I had the option to follow up with a special Aggressive option or use normal dialogue...  I chose the aggressive option, and yeah, that took care of things and I was free to side with the Chantry.

I have no idea what the result is if you don't have the Aggressive personality...

[graavigala85]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Axekix wrote...
I thought I'd at least get to talk with Bethany/Carver after Leandra's murder, but apparently not.

I got to talk to Bethany about it when we met up with her as a Gray Warden.   Unfortunately, I don't think I did with her in the Circle.  By that point, Meredith was locking down everything pretty tight, as I recall.  Though apparently Gamlen could talk to her. 

Talking with her/Carver as a grey warden is nothing more than Hawke saying that their mother is dead and the sibling acknowledges that with an "I know" . Not what I would expext if you meet your brother/sister after three years and your mom just died.

AND everybody besides Hawke seems to be able to visit Carver/Bethany. Just Hawke isn't allowed.

This is also one of the quirks I hate, if your sister is sent to Circle why cant you go there? Everyone else is visiting her. And the biggest thing I have noticed is that where the hell is the Circle!!!!

I would think that if the game is between the conflict of Templars and Mages you would be given choice to actually see how the mages are treated in the Circle. All we know is that they are treated badly but how do they live? In huge ivory tower somewhere with millions of servants and orgies? In dark and damp cells? We have no idea because there is nothing that makes you care about Mages in DA2.

I played as a warrior and mage, So i first sided with templars having my sister in the Circle. I tried to get some quests where I could maybe meet her or save her. There were none. I did whopping 2quests to the Circle leader, that elf man, Orsini-something. And the mages involving those quest all were goddam bloodmages! That is supposed to make me care about the mages? NO!
Yes there are some templars who are bad to the mages but do you blame them? All the mages I encountered with my mage and warrior character were bloodmages! Even Hawke says so when picked snarky comment "I wish not all the mages I meet were blood mages" 

The story in DA2 is onesided, it heavily sides with templars and makes even them look wankers. Its hard to care about either of them when both feel nothing but bad choice. There isnt even any deep meaning to joining them because when Bethanny was in the circle the only words spoken between Hawke and and her for me were "I dont want to fight you" and then stupid stare in to the distance. Oooookay... After +4years of not seeing they dont even hug! They dont even say hello!!  I have deeper meetings with my poo than what Hawke has with his family.

This is what I ment by "not caring about anything" You do lots of stuff but everything feels empty and soulless.

[Kohaku]

I do agree with the OP to a point. I'm close to finishing a second play through in this game and I still don't care about any of Hawke's family. I did love how the mother commented on certain things (relationships, getting me married, my party members) and I was happy when Carver stood up for me against Fenris. Outside of that, they made so little impact they would have been better off not even being there. At times I even forgot that Carver was still alive.

I loved my companions more than my family and that's a little sad. I even felt bad sparring Fenris's sister with the option of: "She's your family!" because I didn't give two bits about my own.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 04 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[ISnowdropI]

I agree with you. I've done 3 playthroughs of DA2 now just to see the different paths I could've taken. Now this can be seen as a good thing because there are lots of choices and consequential paths to go down, but it also means that I didn't care enough about the characters, the story, Hawke, and the consequences of my actions enough to stick with a similar-ish path, like I did in Origins.
In Origins, I couldn't kill off Leliana. I couldn't ditch Alistair, or let Loghain live. But in DA2 I felt like it didn't matter who I sided with, or even if Bethany or Carver died.
   In a nutshell, I didn't feel involved.

Modifié par ISnowdropI, 04 avril 2011 - 03:46 .

[Asdara]

The family bit is rough to disagree with - I mean, of course the sibling who dies right out of the box is... well who cares? It has no impact what-so-ever and it is basically the game culling a spare personality they won't be needing now since you picked X job class. It was poorly done and what defends that decision of the developers? I have no idea.

The "remaining" sibling will also be culled out of the party - but there is a potential for connection in an option quest-line to discover things about your family, talk with them around the house, and generally walk around with them. They can live or die - but you don't really get much of a say in what happens to them unless you take the time to be aware of what conditions either happens from - and by having to do / know that - it removes a significant amount of emotion from the situation. For instance, when my fiance lost Bethany to the Templars by leaving her behind for the Deep Roads, it had an impact. When I took her (trying to avoid that) with me and she died - it was hollowed out by knowing that I was going to "lose" this person one way or another, my only choice was how. (Also, who would take Bethany AND Anders into the deep roads together without knowing you need them both to save her life? Since you have to take Varric that means you better be a strong source of damage or a tank character)

Mommy dearest... well I would have cared if every single time you ever interact with her she only talks about your siblings (dead or alive) and acts like you don't matter much. I felt like a family custodian more than a family member with her... still messed up how she dies, but it wasn't like we were all that close - I just did a lot of things for her that she didn't appreciate anyway. Maybe I'm projecting a tiny bit there.

That all said, there are plenty of things to care about in DA2 - or at least I found plenty of things to care about for each and every one of my characters so far... but they probably aren't the things the developers thought I would be hanging my persona on - if they thought the family dynamic was going to stir deep feelings anyway.

[Miashi]

edit: my bad, I didnt understand you meant emotionally.

Modifié par Miashi, 04 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[graavigala85]

Asdara wrote...

That all said, there are plenty of things to care about in DA2 - or at least I found plenty of things to care about for each and every one of my characters so far... but they probably aren't the things the developers thought I would be hanging my persona on - if they thought the family dynamic was going to stir deep feelings anyway.

Yes maybe I was too hard on that there is NOTHING to care. I did care about my ompanions, Varric, Aveline and Fenris,Sebastian and Isabella, Merril was nice little spoof but she was bloodmage SO OFF WITH HER HEAD!!!! (at first I somehow ended up in bed with her...). I wanted to see what happened to them and that is wrong when Bioware marketed this game to have deep emotional story involving your family. While I do agree that in fantasy game your party is your "family", I do think they ment your biological family and that was left empty.

[Danjaru]

Vormaerin wrote...

Keeping Alistair vs Loghain is no different than deciding the fate of Anders (and possibly a sibling).

Morrigan's ritual only changes the epilogue. Its not much more significant to gameplay than whether you end up Viscount or are grudgingly allowed to leave by the Templars.

The differences in the summonables is irrelevant. You are going to have a bunch. They make no difference. How is that more significant than "I fight with the templars against some mages" vs "I fight with the mages against some templars" before the boss fights? Or whether you have Zevran and various other companions helping in the final fight or not.


From the moment you tell Eamon "Let's go to Denerim" until the epilogue, nothing you do makes a bit of difference. Its a giant chute straight to the end. The entire 2nd Denerim sequence is completely pointless. No matter how well or poorly you do, you fight Loghain then you fight some darkspawn, then you fight the archdemon. Epilogue.

Morrigans ritual affects the After Battle thingy as well. Wether you die, or one of the Warden dies changes your companions responses (if you live) and there's a whole other scene if you die. Makes a big differense in the aftermath.

It's not irrelevant who you can summon, they're the allies you've gathered, the whole point of you going to all those places to gather allies.

And I've also given an example of how you can affect even the battle of Denerim by helping against the Generals and helping the Alienage or not. If you don't you have to fight the generals alongside the Archdemon. That added to the fact that DA:O was about taking down the Archdemon, you had 1 goal, in DA2 you could choose which side to support and in the end you got the exact same result anyways.

In DA2 you get the exact same results no matter what you do and with a extremely poor epilogue you don't even know the fate of your companions.

Modifié par Danjaru, 04 avril 2011 - 03:59 .

[Asdara]

Varric made the group a family though, and that was somewhat nice and at the same time odd for me. It was clear that he was the hub around which the other companions tended to circle at or around the Hanged Man - not my estate, not Hawke as a character. He provided protection for "Blondie" and "Daisy" and he was more sad about the death of "Sunshine" that he had a right to be with me standing there, dying sister in arms and all.

So, in some sense, Hawke becomes part of the adventuring troupe "family" but yes, the biological family provided in the script has a canned feeling to it that only seems to increase with each play-through.

... I hate to admit this, but I actually killed Bethany off on purpose this past play through - just so that my LI would get kidnapped instead of her in Act 3 - how sad and shallow is that?? But I care about my LI way way more than some person off in the Circle for years that I sort of knew earlier.

[Kohaku]

@Asdara - I kind of wish I had let Carver kick the bucket too. That way I could have saved Fenris. At least I know he cares about my character and is not bitter about me "Stealing his spotlight!"

[Volourn]

"You can have no impact on the ending what so ever. You are forced to choose between two factions who you have very little interaction with, almost zero with the mages."

Uh.. you deal with them throughout the quest. Nearly every non fetch quest involved the templars or mages in some way. The biggest one that did was the Bone Pit.

You played the game twice which emans you seem to have nejoyed yourself.

DA2 doesn't make you care about anything but it certainly did for me. The family, the mages, the good templars, the murder victims, the companions. Totally awesome.

[Herr Uhl]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

@Asdara - I kind of wish I had let Carver kick the bucket too. That way I could have saved Fenris. At least I know he cares about my character and is not bitter about me "Stealing his spotlight!"

Seems like a petty reason to want someone dead.

[Andronic0s]

The difference with DAO was that there I could change the path to my goal, but in DA2 I feel I can not, the same important people always do the same things, if DAO where DA2 Zathrian would never agree to lift the curse no matter how hard I tried to convince him, and I would have been forced to fight both Branka and Caridim not matter what I do, for example