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[AngryFrozenWater]

Lithuasil wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It is one of the few quest lines in which the impact has more than a simple dialog change effect. I love to see more of those. The team provided different endings for those quests, other dialogs, etc. You also lose a bit when siding with the werewolves. You cannot trade with the elves anymore and you cannot get extra experience points in the camp by providing their emissary with stuff. IIRC he doesn't accept stuff. On the other hand you do have the opportunity to kill all the dalish. You'll also have additional random encounters from that point on in which the dalish are not happy to see you. That is more than cosmetic impact. I agree that it does not change the main story line (I'll be the first to point that out), but don't tell me that all decisions in DA:O are cosmetic.

I'm not saying they were all cosmetic. But neither are the choices in DA2. Both games are essentially railroads, with a few gimmicks thrown in to maintain the illusion. There's exactly two differences. Origins had dialogue slides (whoop de doo), and DA2 had me actually caring for what was going on, and gave me the feeling of being responsible.

Tell me about those fantastic DA2 choices you've encountered that actually changed the world or gave you the feeling of being responsible.

Edit: About the lack of choices impacting the main story... You are preaching to the wrong crowd here.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[Lithuasil]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Tell me about those fantastic DA2 choices you've encountered that actually changed the world or gave you the feeling of being responsible.

Siding with Varnell changes the entire rest of the act, to name just one?
And you know, when the killer whom I had hunted several times now, kidnapped my mother, and when Anders blew up the chantry, with the materials and distraction I had provided, I kind of felt like I ****ed up.
And that (even when it isn't my fault, saying that is metagaming) is more then I ever felt in origins, where all the choice happened after doing a level, essentially picking what pokemon to bring for the final fight.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ah. Varnell. I would consider that just a case of a quest with a slightly different fight in the end. The results of both situations are the same. The qunari will be killed no matter what you opted for. And you already shed light on your second example. There was no choice. Picking the characters and whether they stayed is a good aexample. Just as good as the one I provided about the armies.

The decisions of Hawke that would "shape the world" never happened, though. It was advertized, but not seen. Unless the cameos count.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[Lithuasil]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah. Varnell. I would consider that just a case of a quest with a slightly different fight in the end. The result of both situations are the same. The qunari will be killed no matter what you opted for. And you already shed light on your second example. There was no choice.

In which the Varnell encounter is different from ALL decisions in Origins, how?dc
Sure there was no choice. But hawke doesn't know that. It's metagaming. I'd rather be railroaded through a conflict I care about, even if that makes my choices insignificant, then fixing the problems of people neither me, nor my character have any reason to care about, to eventually overcome a looming evil, neither me, nor my character have reason to care about.

[Vormaerin]

No, the real difference is that some players expect to be omnipotent reshapers of reality and DA:O gave you ridiculous (imho) influence over various places that mattered only in post game fanfic fantasies, whereas DA2 only gave you ordinary influence over the individuals and situations that also only mattered in post game fanfics.

Its easier for some people to ignore the massive railroad when they can say "I appointed the dorf king" than it is when all the can say is "I saved the world's first dream mage in generations and I don't know for sure what that means."

[AngryFrozenWater]

Sorry about my slow editing. I am a foreigner. A dictionary on one monitor and the site on the other while editing. Again, sorry about that.

[Vormaerin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah. Varnell. I would consider that just a case of a quest with a slightly different fight in the end. The results of both situations are the same. The qunari will be killed no matter what you opted for. And you already shed light on your second example. There was no choice.

From the point you tell Eamon you are ready to go to Denerim, there is nothing you can do but ride the greased slide.  No matter what decisions you make, you end up fighting Loghain in a duel.  You then have a choice about companions (bad ass loghain or candyass Alistair).   Then you go to the final fight sequences, which play out exactly the same way no matter what decisions you make, though I suppose you could count fighting the generals and the archdemon at once different than fighting them separately.  You still have to fight them.

THen you go to a party cutscene.

All those vaunted decisions change nothing in the actual course of GAMEPLAY.   They just change your epilogue slides.

[Vormaerin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The decisions of Hawke that would "shape the world" never happened, though. It was advertized, but not seen. Unless the cameos count.

Yeah, they didn't leave us on a cliffhanger technically, but its clearly not the end of the story.  Alot of stuff happened and could be quite important, but we don't know yet whether or how.   I think how we handled the Arishok will matter in the future, but I don't /know/.   They didn't give us the epilogue because they clearly intend to continue the story in the next game instead.  That's kind of a cruel tease.

But its a different objection than the one being discussed.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vormaerin wrote...

No, the real difference is that some players expect to be omnipotent reshapers of reality and DA:O gave you ridiculous (imho) influence over various places that mattered only in post game fanfic fantasies, whereas DA2 only gave you ordinary influence over the individuals and situations that also only mattered in post game fanfics.

Its easier for some people to ignore the massive railroad when they can say "I appointed the dorf king" than it is when all the can say is "I saved the world's first dream mage in generations and I don't know for sure what that means."

If I see that change is advertized by BW like "shaping the world" (it is in one of the podcasts - I don't invent statements like that) then I expect to see them. I am curious and I like the very idea. The idea was that over the years we would witness these changes and no game would be the same. Listen to that podcast and hear how it is explained. Now ask yourself after playing the game: What were they on about?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vormaerin wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The decisions of Hawke that would "shape the world" never happened, though. It was advertized, but not seen. Unless the cameos count.

Yeah, they didn't leave us on a cliffhanger technically, but its clearly not the end of the story.  Alot of stuff happened and could be quite important, but we don't know yet whether or how.   I think how we handled the Arishok will matter in the future, but I don't /know/.   They didn't give us the epilogue because they clearly intend to continue the story in the next game instead.  That's kind of a cruel tease.

But its a different objection than the one being discussed.

To me it is not. I saw more changes to the DA:O world as a result of the elves/werewolves decision than any decision I made in DA2.

[Vormaerin]

Well, I don't think they fully delivered the game they wanted. There's a lot of things hinted in this game that aren't fully explored and the ending does feel rushed. But the world is definitely reshaped, just not really by Hawke so far as we can tell. There's a lot of decisions I can see as being possibly important, but I don't know.

But, personally, I'm happy with the smaller scale of Hawke's actual decisions. I find it really lame when its like DA:O and every other person in the world is too retarded to feed himself, much less act on anything important.

[Vormaerin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To me it is not. I saw more changes to the DA:O world as a result of the elves/werewolves decision than any decision I made in DA2.

What, not being able to access the elf camp any more if you went pro werewolf?

[Wompoo]

Connection to the DA2 world was more personnal to me then DA:O. The characters were more alive with personalities then the totally disposable and killable annoyances of DA:O. Morrigan is kept for one reason and one reason only, the dark ritual (forgetable story). Liliana (totally pointless religious zealot with a so so story). Sten/Ogrhen 2 hander dps addons both forgetable really (especially Sten). Alister a character that I hated for half a game. Yay for dog the solo star of sanity in a party made up of emotional cripples (maybe slot Shale in there, her personality was as good as dogs). DA:O had greater choices for combat development and far far more versatility within builds. DA2 simply a much better story and better banter, but came with a slimed down combat system that was lacking and lacked versatility

They both have choke points in their main plots, they both have side quest and minor plots that have almost no impact on the world... and they both railroad you along a path. I would rather have cosmetic decisions with a great story then a game that bogs down with the cliche decisions that mater rubbish. Then again I am happy with my super hero in an end game fight against an acient evil, go figure.
DA2>>>DA:O story wise character development (class development) castrated.

I'll slap in the IMHO disclaimer here as people on the internet seem to require this, even though it is generally obvious.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vormaerin wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To me it is not. I saw more changes to the DA:O world as a result of the elves/werewolves decision than any decision I made in DA2.

What, not being able to access the elf camp any more if you went pro werewolf?

Yes. And the other changes that came along with that. I've posted about them in this thread a while back. You haven't forgotten about those, have you?

* checks to see if the post is missing *

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 avril 2011 - 05:01 .

[graavigala85]

People seem to be sidetracking with the choices option and the emotional caring here...

[Vormaerin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


What, not being able to access the elf camp any more if you went pro werewolf?
Yes. And the other changes that came along with that. I've posted about them in this thread a while back. You haven't forgotten about those, have you?

No, I'm just sort of boggled that that is something you consider a "change to the world" that is unique to DAO.   I can slaughter the Dalish and destroy their vendor in DA2  (or not) also, with the right dialogue choices.

You know, I wonder if the fact that DA2 plays differently based on your cumulative dialogue choices instead of just individual plot point decisions isn't causing all manner of confusion.   Aggressive, Sarcastic, and Friendly Hawke have different options in the various quests.   Friend and Rival status give different options in various quests, too.   So you don't see the full range of choices and game play changes in one play through.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Persephone]

Vormaerin wrote...

No, the real difference is that some players expect to be omnipotent reshapers of reality and DA:O gave you ridiculous (imho) influence over various places that mattered only in post game fanfic fantasies, whereas DA2 only gave you ordinary influence over the individuals and situations that also only mattered in post game fanfics.

Its easier for some people to ignore the massive railroad when they can say "I appointed the dorf king" than it is when all the can say is "I saved the world's first dream mage in generations and I don't know for sure what that means."

Exquisitely said! 

[VheodTh]

I have noticed that DA2 seems to be a bit TOO complicated for some There are many complaints about the story/choices ect. that are result of people not understanding them. The dialogue system is much more complicated than people think and so are the results of the choices you make.

And I have to add, I don't have hard time siding with the templars. I finished my third playthrough as a warrior/templar female and concidering how much havoc mages cause in the game, it's easy to mistrust them and think that they are all better off in the circle/ or dead

Modifié par VheodTh, 05 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[VheodTh]

sorry double post

Modifié par VheodTh, 05 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Persephone wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Speak for yourself. I did not have this problem at all.

Also, DA2's story is just like DA:O.

DA:O, kill Archdemon, can't be avoided. DA2 kill Meredith, can't be avoided.

DA:O, kill Loghain or recuit him to fight Archdemon. DA2 kill Anders or recruit him to fight Meredith.

DA:O, do Morrigan's ritual or don't. DA2, side with mages and Cullen lets you go when Meredith dies or side with templars and all the Templars bow to you when Meredith dies.

DA:O how you treat various NPCs determines if they side with you for the final battle. DA2, how you treat various companions determines if they side with you for the final battle.

DA:O Was about the Journey to the Archdemon not necessarily about the fight with the Archdemon itself. While DA2 was about small dissjointed stories that didn't really make you care.

DA:O Spare Loghain and loose your first companion that you might've got a connection with. DA2, Spare anders and loose a preachy DLC character.

DA:O, realize that Morrigan had other intentions, sleep with her and she helps you and both Wardens survive, don't and she leaves and a Warden dies. DA2, choose either side, get the exact same result.

DA:O, treat various factions in a certain way through long story arcs and they might or might not help you. DA2, do 1 choice in a short sidequest and they might help you.

See the differense?

DA2 certainly wasn't disjointed, one only has to pay attention to see the strings connecting the tale. They are there and I love the subtlety. And I cared PLENTY.

Anders was NOT a DLC character and I most certainly had a connection with him. Different ones through different playthroughs actually. As for preachy: Wynne is preachy. Anders is anything but preachy. Extremist? Yes. A fanatic? Yes. Preachy? Not so much.

The longer faction quests always end up in recruitment in DAO. The only differences are the models. Werewolves or elves? Dwarves and or Golems? Very linear.

They're talking about preachy Sebastian I believe and he was damned preachy.  I only do his personal quests and tick him off so I get rivalry points making him leave the chantry which I hate. 

I can understand about having no attachment to the siblings.  Hell, I didn't care when Carver died in Lothering.  Wesley's death was emotional because Aveline had to do it.  That makes it emotional.  I do like DA2 but I like it a lot more with the mods that people have done.  Bioware needs to hire some of the modders to do their art work.  The modders are a lot better.

[lordtru]

There's more then enough dialogue to let you know and "care" about your companions, what I cared about was the lack of fresh areas not fresh faces. Who cares that you get emotionally attached to companions when you only spend time with them exploring the same areas over and over...changing to night was just a lame attempt at trying to make the areas seem diffferent somehow

[Danjaru]

Vormaerin wrote...

The difference is that you are confusing fluff with substance. Your decisions don't affect the gameplay. They affect your "closure". I was fine with some of that closure being during the game. I wasn't dissing the epilogue and praising the letters. I said they are the same thing. You apparently think the scale of your decisions is important. If you aren't altering the nature of the universe, you are wasting your time? I have the opposite reaction. I roll my eyes when I have to hand pick the leader of every place in creation personally because there is not one competent person in the entire rest of the world. What? How stupid is that? I had Loghain do the sacrifice, because obviously the world would collapse under its own stupidity if I wasn't there to hold every last person's hand.

I felt far, far more betrayed by the utter pointlessness of the Denerim and Landsmeet session than anything in DA2. What a joke that was.

In DA2, Orsino and Meredith both needed to be disposed of and it had been pretty obvious for a while. It would have been lame in the extreme if you only got to choose which of the two evil scum "won". I think the mage choice ought to have handled Orsino a little differently, but not being able to whack him if I saved the Circle would have sucked.

The Epilogue and your allies arriving (not counting the soldiers you could summon, the leaders appeared in the last battle as well) is not really fluff. The epilogue was even built upon in DLC's and DA2. How is that possibly just fluff? But if you prefer a cliffhanger that tells you nothing, to each his own.
But you're not hand holding anyone except maybe the dwarves as they needed a Paragon. In the circle if you didn't arrive, they'd just done the right of annullment and killed all the mages. In Redcliffe if you just leave all but Teagan die but you can still continue. And the Elf - Werewolf struggle would've gotten it's conclusion even without your aid. You did those things cause you needed to end the struggles quickly and get a favor for a favor. And it's pretty clear that even without your Alistair would've taken the group to the final battle anyways.
And yes, I do think it's wasting our time where a franchise is built upon choice and you don't get to do a single important one. The story is needlessly linear and you can't even do enough choices to alter anything even though in the end you are the most capable person in the city, not unlike the Warden in Ferelden, but the differense is that they keep building up the Champion as the most important person in the world, but he/she's nothing more than a glorified mercenary. The characters in DA2 were even more useless than Origins (except your group), in a span of 3 years their own incompetence almost destroyed them twice.

The Landsmeet could either end in a bloodbath due to you having to fight, or end up in a duel where only one person died or left. I don't know why you'd call that pointless..

And yes, I agree, I wish I could've chosen a "I'll just kill you both" option. Which we got in the end but it wasn't handled very well.

Modifié par Danjaru, 05 avril 2011 - 04:12 .

[Parrk]

If you are an empathetic and caring person, then you will care about many of hte characters in this game. If you are not, then you probably won't.

Can we move on to the next installment of "threads where the game serves as a proxy for our lives and we argue with such ferocity while claiming nonchalance"?

[T764]

I cared about some of the characters in both games but with regards to the main quests then in DA:O i felt mostly indifferent to the over all plot. Origins it was a case of not collecting allies and killing the archdemon but fixing every other idiots problems and by the time i came to the dalish i had cut through so many abominations, demons, undead and darkspawn that i could not see their use in the final battle, my companions and i felt unstoppable. In the end did it matter to me what happened to the dwarven chantry? No my warden was either dead or focussed on other things.

[ThePasserby]

Vormaerin wrote...

  And Morrigan's ritual changes the epilogue, not the game. 

That right there alone demolishes any credibility you have, assuming you have any to begin with. Just in case you need to get them enumerated for you:

Not doing the dark ritual means:

1) Morrigan leaves the party right away, so one less mage. Not counting the Warden, that is one half of your total mage personnel for the Denerim battle.
2) One of the two Wardens dies. You have to make a choice as to who dies, and sometimes, Alistair makes it for you. If your PC dies, you get a separate cutscene. All these involve cutscenes, not just epilogues.

Doing the dark ritual means:
1) If your PC is female, you get conversation scenes to persuade Alistair to do it, and you can fail.
2) You get part of the ritual cutscene.
3) But most importantly, you do not have to make a choice as to who dies. Both Wardens survive, leading to different cutscenes.
And again, all these involve cutscenes and conversations, not just epilogues.

You might wanna restate your stand on the dark ritual and the extent of the consequences of your choice.