128 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Hi everyone,

I think everyone agrees that misleading paraphrases on the dialogue wheel are DA2's main problem for actual roleplaying. Regardless of whether you think that the wheel should be removed for that, or that the writers need to do a better job of telling us what to expect, whether your think we need to know exactly what we're going to say or simply better and less generic paraphrases, I think it would be very useful for Bioware to know where exactly we have that feeling of "Hey, that wasn't what I meant."

With this thread, I hope to start a collection. I'm starting with the most egregious example in my games:

After Isabela had come back with the relic and the duel with the Arishok was over - I don't recall if it was in the end of Act II or the start of Act III - you can have a conversation with Isabela where the topmost option is:

"I'm glad you came back".

Since that was exactly what I was feeling, I chose that option. And was absolutely dumbstruck and horrified when  my Hawke proceeded to say something to the effect of:

"You know it was the right thing to do."

Well, no, that was most emphatically *not* what I meant. Not only would none of my Hawkes ever use that phrase, not only couldn't that Hawke care less about the right- or wrongness of it, he also would not support a race that would go to war over a religious text and treat all their individuals as slaves in any way. He was just glad that Isabela was back and that her actions showed that she cared about him and - possibly - the city.

I'll be adding to this thread as I replay. Most other examples didn't stick in my mind so I can't mention them at this point.

So...what are your "Hey, that wasn't what I meant" moments? Or should we call them Hawke's Out of Character Moments?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[supakillaii]

"I'll take responsibility"

[LobselVith8]

supakillaii wrote...

"I'll take responsibility"

It was a WTF moment for me when I selected this. I got the impression it meant Hawke would take responsibility, not that he would blame the whole thing on Merrill.

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

"I'll take responsibility"

It was a WTF moment for me when I selected this. I got the impression it meant Hawke would take responsibility, not that he would blame the whole thing on Merrill.

Indeed. I took "I take responsibility" as "I take responsibility for what happened", which I wouldn't select because it sounds like "I take the blame", but the intention was "I take responsibility for preventing further damage".

[Torax]

We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

[supakillaii]

True that though.

[Anarcala]

If you took Dougal Gavorns offer, he comes back to you in Act II. You have an option to say 'P*ss off'. I really wish Hawke has just said that, rather than the bo*&cks that followed.

[Suron]

Torax wrote...

We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

except it's really no different.  Top right "good", middle is mid-ground, bottom right "mean"

using different icons instead of red or blue text doesn't make it different..the dialogue wheel is the exact same as ME's.

while that doesn't help with the misleading txt it does mean that it's no different or harder to understand..because it is the exact same.  I don't even know why they bothered trying to hide it....just embrace it; Friendship/Rivalry is just Paragon/Renegade and the dialogue wheel should just have blue or red txt for those options

[NaclynE]

As I said on another post there was a conversation with Fenris about agreeing about Templars. I believe there was an option called "Yes I agree" Yes I agree turned into "Yes I agree but you need to treat mages like human beings too." I wound up loseing big time points with Fenris. Im like wth? Another moment is if you take Merril to the fade, The top option I wind up defending Merril in aideing the demon where Hawke says that she wont help demons. that option makes me lose 15 points with Merril. I'm like "A positive response hurts my relationship? Wth!?" bottom you threaten to kill her if she sides with the demon. that makes you lose only 5 to 10 points which is a lower point loss compared to the top choice. The middle makes you agree with the demon and you lose no points. Odd thing is Merril gives the same response to the choice no matter what. I'm baffled on this set of options in the game.

[Ieldra]

Torax wrote...
We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

The problem is the icons don't help a lot in many cases. In fact, we know that the lower response is always some kind of "aggresive" or "decisive". The icons don't help with distinguishing an appropriately aggressive stance from a jerkish one, or, as in my first example, distinguish between genuine delight and priggishness. 

[Torax]

Suron wrote...

Torax wrote...

We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

except it's really no different.  Top right "good", middle is mid-ground, bottom right "mean"

using different icons instead of red or blue text doesn't make it different..the dialogue wheel is the exact same as ME's.

while that doesn't help with the misleading txt it does mean that it's no different or harder to understand..because it is the exact same.  I don't even know why they bothered trying to hide it....just embrace it; Friendship/Rivalry is just Paragon/Renegade and the dialogue wheel should just have blue or red txt for those options

Well it also offers more. We get the offers. The lies and various other solutions. The calling on companions was also nice. But for anyone who had the dialogue from their character before? This is nothing new. I've never had a character that talks like me. Nor one that generally thinks like me. So I just tend to just let them say what they would. Not to mention how in DA2 the character may say completely different things based on if they Friendly Sarcastic or Rival. Plus also different if you're a mix of Sacrastic and one of the other 2. There is too many variations to keep them all straight in my head to care.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

The problem is the icons don't help a lot in many cases. In fact, we know that the lower response is always some kind of "aggresive" or "decisive". The icons don't help with distinguishing an appropriately aggressive stance from a jerkish one, or, as in my first example, distinguish between genuine delight and priggishness.  

Keep in mind some of that. The Priggish versus Delight. Much of that can be dependent on if your character is Sarcastic or not. Even what your Hawke says in combat changes if your Friendly compared to Sarcastic and Rival is different from the other 2. If you want the aggressive go full aggressive. Your character will act and talk differently in many of the situations. Even the "Diplomatic" options will have a different tone at times if from and Aggressive Hawke.

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[Anarcala]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

The problem is the icons don't help a lot in many cases. In fact, we know that the lower response is always some kind of "aggresive" or "decisive". The icons don't help with distinguishing an appropriately aggressive stance from a jerkish one, or, as in my first example, distinguish between genuine delight and priggishness. 

I thought the icons helped actually.  'Fist' = Ar£$ehole, 'Gavel' = decisive.  'Diamond' = witty, 'Mask' = sarcastic (really BAD sarcasm too).  'Laurel' = diplomatic.

[NaclynE]

Suron wrote...

Torax wrote...

We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

except it's really no different.  Top right "good", middle is mid-ground, bottom right "mean"

using different icons instead of red or blue text doesn't make it different..the dialogue wheel is the exact same as ME's.

while that doesn't help with the misleading txt it does mean that it's no different or harder to understand..because it is the exact same.  I don't even know why they bothered trying to hide it....just embrace it; Friendship/Rivalry is just Paragon/Renegade and the dialogue wheel should just have blue or red txt for those options

Truthfully I disagree with you last staement. At times the top leads into fights while the bottom gives a differant conversation spin where the symbol isn't a red fist it's like a yellow X * thingy. Also it seems like your pit in scenarios where renegade wins positive and paragon wins negative and vice versa. It's like they give the characters differant personalities. Like if you think like a stick in the mud for Fenris you'll gain friendship points. be anti templar and you get rivalry points.

[Ieldra]

Torax wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

The problem is the icons don't help a lot in many cases. In fact, we know that the lower response is always some kind of "aggresive" or "decisive". The icons don't help with distinguishing an appropriately aggressive stance from a jerkish one, or, as in my first example, distinguish between genuine delight and priggishness.  

Keep in mind some of that. The Priggish versus Delight. Much of that can be dependent on if your character is Sarcastic or not. Even what your Hawke says in combat changes if your Friendly compared to Sarcastic and Rival is different from the other 2. If you want the aggressive go full aggressive. Your character will act and talk differently in many of the situations. Even the "Diplomatic" options will have a different tone at times if from and Aggressive Hawke.

I can only say that that Hawke was of the witty/ironic kind. Having him voice a priggish line was - dare I say it - out of character. Which would have been OK if I had intended that, after all, in RL we're all out of character at some time or the other. But misleading me into the priggish when that's about as far from my Hawke's personality as can be imagined, that just destroys role-playing.

BTW, If the spoken lines change in response to Hawke's personality, then why don't the paraphrases also change? They could have put "You did the right thing" on the wheel, which would have been more correct, and I would've known not to select that. Or was the writer unable to imagine one could be glad that Isabela is back for any other reason than that she's done "the right thing".

[Torax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

The problem is the icons don't help a lot in many cases. In fact, we know that the lower response is always some kind of "aggresive" or "decisive". The icons don't help with distinguishing an appropriately aggressive stance from a jerkish one, or, as in my first example, distinguish between genuine delight and priggishness.  

Keep in mind some of that. The Priggish versus Delight. Much of that can be dependent on if your character is Sarcastic or not. Even what your Hawke says in combat changes if your Friendly compared to Sarcastic and Rival is different from the other 2. If you want the aggressive go full aggressive. Your character will act and talk differently in many of the situations. Even the "Diplomatic" options will have a different tone at times if from and Aggressive Hawke.

I can only say that that Hawke was of the witty/ironic kind. Having him voice a priggish line was - dare I say it - out of character. Which would have been OK if I had intended that, after all, in RL we're all out of character at some time or the other. But misleading me into the priggish when that's about as far from my Hawke's personality as can be imagined, that just destroys role-playing.

BTW, If the spoken lines change in response to Hawke's personality, then why don't the paraphrases also change? They could have put "You did the right thing" on the wheel, which would have been more correct, and I would've known not to select that. Or was the writer unable to imagine one could be glad that Isabela is back for any other reason than that she's done "the right thing".

"You did the right thing" or "I take responsibility" is how how the game is going to take it. Just because the Voice Actor's lines don't appease you? Doesn't change the fact that if you click an Olive Branch it means a diplomatic. If you click and Aggressive it means the game will consider it an aggressive choice. You read far too much into the character's voice work while ignoring a game mechanic functioning properly.

[nos_astra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

supakillaii wrote...
"I'll take responsibility"

It
was a WTF moment for me when I selected this. I got the impression it
meant Hawke would take responsibility, not that he would blame the whole
thing on Merrill.

Indeed. I took "I take responsibility"
as "I take responsibility for what happened", which I wouldn't select
because it sounds like "I take the blame", but the intention was "I take
responsibility for preventing further damage".

For me it was misleading as well. I went for the other options first and was horrified to see that it meant coddling Merrill. Then I shrugged and tried this one and it was perfect for my Hawke. It was a surprise, though.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[Darth Krytie]

The problem I find is that a lot of people associate diplomacy options as "good" and aggressive as "bad" when you should be focusing on which option is "agreeing" with a companion and which is "disagreeing" as that's what friendship and rivalry is about. Not being good or bad or nice or mean, but either agreeing or disagreeing with whomever you're talking to.

That's how I chose my options and I rarely got an outcome that I didn't want.

[sonsonthebia07]

"Your mom's a ****."

I really expected this to be a bit more...I dunno, angry.

edit: This is when you speak to Leandra about your grandmother.

Modifié par sonsonthebia07, 04 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[Torax]

Problem if you are looking at it from the Merrill perspective. If you are in a "friendship" with Merrill. That means you are going to Coddle. There is no option not to coddle. Such is life. Being her friend even as her love interest. Means you support her blood magic, the mirror and all the destruction that is going around. So "I take responsibility" can play out differently though this.

Just like the characters evolving. Even being a Friend or Rival can completely change your options and what your character will say.

[Maria Caliban]

I had more 'that's not what I meant' moments with DA II than with both the MEs combined.

supakillaii wrote...

"I'll take responsibility"

I'll take responsibility... for Merrill's brutal murder of your Keeper.

[Ieldra]

Torax wrote...
"You did the right thing" or "I take responsibility" is how how the game is going to take it. Just because the Voice Actor's lines don't appease you? Doesn't change the fact that if you click an Olive Branch it means a diplomatic. If you click and Aggressive it means the game will consider it an aggressive choice. You read far too much into the character's voice work while ignoring a game mechanic functioning properly.

How the game takes it is of no relevance to me as a roleplayer. Should the game take "I'm glad you came back" and "You did the right thing" as the same kind of reponse I could live with it - as long as the paraphrase actually paraphrased what Hawke was going to say instead of something completely different.

If Hawke was going to say "You did the right thing", something to that effect should have appeared on the wheel instead of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "I'm glad you came back".

Maria Caliban wrote...
I had more 'that's not what I meant' moments with DA II than with both the MEs combined.

Yes, me too. In the ME games, answers were more often "slightly off", but "that's emphatically not what I meant" is much more prevalent in DA2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 10:46 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Having played both Mass Effects through save-reloading every possible dialogue option to make sure the 'final' conversation goes exactly how I want, and having continued this trend into DAII, I can honestly say that the dialogue options in this game are far more obvious in their intent. I don't recall any major "That wasn't what I meant" moments in this game, which can partly be attribute to the icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel.

On that note, I really liked the personality system they implementend.

[Torax]

It's like,

Bunch of angry Elves looking for a reason to take out their former First.

Hawke steps up and says "I will make sure she harms no one else with all that bad stuff!"

Bunch of the Elves are ready throw themselves at them. Fenarel realizes that the Keeper went there on her own most likely for Merrill. Plus she was probably acting strange the last few months. He gets the angry chick to back down.

Because Hawke is now taking the responsibility of making sure no further harm is caused? She'll get a pass. Any attempt at putting the blame on the keeper or merrill just insights a fight. Best writing? Nope but it's how they mapped it out. For better or worse.

But if you're in a friendship. The words will just be the normal coddle sounding that most the 1 on 1 conversations you have. All rainbows in that friendship until the blood is flowing. Then it's just more red rainbows.

[Torax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
"You did the right thing" or "I take responsibility" is how how the game is going to take it. Just because the Voice Actor's lines don't appease you? Doesn't change the fact that if you click an Olive Branch it means a diplomatic. If you click and Aggressive it means the game will consider it an aggressive choice. You read far too much into the character's voice work while ignoring a game mechanic functioning properly.

How the game takes it is of no relevance to me as a roleplayer. Should the game take "I'm glad you came back" and "You did the right thing" as the same kind of reponse I could live with it - as long as the paraphrase actually paraphrased what Hawke was going to say instead of something completely different.

If Hawke was going to say "You did the right thing", something to that effect should have appeared on the wheel instead of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "I'm glad you came back".

Maria Caliban wrote...
I had more 'that's not what I meant' moments with DA II than with both the MEs combined.

Yes, me too. In the ME games, answers were more often "slightly off", but "that's emphatically not what I meant" is much more prevalent in DA2.

Hawke says "You did the right thing" because of how that friendship/rivalry is supposed to be playing out. The trick in it is trying to get her to do the right thing. Was the solution the same as you clicked? Nah but it translates for the intial click right does it not? It's the solution for "welcome back". There is no perfect paraphase or response. But what Hawke actually says makes perfect sense. Hawke spends most of the time in dialogue with her trying to get her do the right thing. It's not great writing or anything but at least the Dialogue is consistant.

[Ieldra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Having played both Mass Effects through save-reloading every possible dialogue option to make sure the 'final' conversation goes exactly how I want, and having continued this trend into DAII, I can honestly say that the dialogue options in this game are far more obvious in their intent. I don't recall any major "That wasn't what I meant" moments in this game, which can partly be attribute to the icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel.

Well, yes...you can use the middle response more often. But the main problem doesn't go away: you shouldn't be pushed into avoiding the diplomatic/helpful or aggressive/decisive options because the game fails to tell you what to expect. And the witty/Ironic options have their own problems of being misleading - most often in the level of irony or sarcasm. 

On that note, I really liked the personality system they implementend.

I do, too. But it does need some more work to function well.