128 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Torax wrote...

We should just be happy they added icons to better give us an idea. Instead of the confusion and face palms i had with Shepard.

No. We shouldn't be happy at all. We should be worried. If the full text was just written this thread wasn't needed. Hehe.

[Torax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Having played both Mass Effects through save-reloading every possible dialogue option to make sure the 'final' conversation goes exactly how I want, and having continued this trend into DAII, I can honestly say that the dialogue options in this game are far more obvious in their intent. I don't recall any major "That wasn't what I meant" moments in this game, which can partly be attribute to the icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel.

Well, yes...you can use the middle response more often. But the main problem doesn't go away: you shouldn't be pushed into avoiding the diplomatic/helpful or aggressive/decisive options because the game fails to tell you what to expect. And the witty/Ironic options have their own problems of being misleading - most often in the level of irony or sarcasm. 

On that note, I really liked the personality system they implementend.

I do, too. But it does need some more work to function well.

Function well is one thing. But just because you don't agree with what the characters are saying doesn't mean it is not functioning properly...

[sonsonthebia07]

I still love the dialogue wheel though as it gives an option for players to choose based on feeling without needing to read through the text. Not everyone wants to read through everything when they are playing these games. I generally do, and I'm sure the vast majority of forum-goers do, but like I said, not everyone does.

I know better than to try and defend it though, and I know it has its flaws, but I still love it to death.

[LyndseyCousland]

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

In DA2 when I was telling off the Antivan shop keeper for being disrespectful, I was hoping for something a little less forceful since my paragon-like Hawke is pretty nice/charming/witty. I said something about if he treated his customers in that way he'd get more bruises than coins.

In ME, when my FemShep paragon wanted Harkin to stop calling her 'sweetheart' she was all like CUT THAT OUT OR YOU'LL BE PICKING YER GODDAMN TEETH OFF THE FLOOR [paraphrasing]. Pretty out of character for my Shep.

I don't know if DA2 has different was of saying the same dialogue option, you know, like later on when your character's personality is more certain? So, even if you pick the aggressive choice it would come out phrased wittily aggressive? Perhaps I'm not making sense.

[sonsonthebia07]

Also, the only way you'd be able to emulate exactly what you want your character to say is if you actually wrote the story yourself.

Even in purely text-based options like in Origins for example, a lot of the time some of the options given were not ones that I would have personally chosen if I were actually the person I was role-playing as.

[Torax]

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

In DA2 when I was telling off the Antivan shop keeper for being disrespectful, I was hoping for something a little less forceful since my paragon-like Hawke is pretty nice/charming/witty. I said something about if he treated his customers in that way he'd get more bruises than coins.

In ME, when my FemShep paragon wanted Harkin to stop calling her 'sweetheart' she was all like CUT THAT OUT OR YOU'LL BE PICKING YER GODDAMN TEETH OFF THE FLOOR [paraphrasing]. Pretty out of character for my Shep.

I don't know if DA2 has different was of saying the same dialogue option, you know, like later on when your character's personality is more certain? So, even if you pick the aggressive choice it would come out phrased wittily aggressive? Perhaps I'm not making sense.

There is changes in tone. Also on top of it all. You get new converstion options. For example only a Nice Hawke is able to talk down the the Dalish from killing the ex-werewolf. An intimidate from a Sarcastic or a nice will not work where it can work for an aggressive hawke. Plus their vocal tone is different at times. Why I tend to stick with Sarcastic.

[Ieldra]

Torax wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
"You did the right thing" or "I take responsibility" is how how the game is going to take it. Just because the Voice Actor's lines don't appease you? Doesn't change the fact that if you click an Olive Branch it means a diplomatic. If you click and Aggressive it means the game will consider it an aggressive choice. You read far too much into the character's voice work while ignoring a game mechanic functioning properly.

How the game takes it is of no relevance to me as a roleplayer. Should the game take "I'm glad you came back" and "You did the right thing" as the same kind of reponse I could live with it - as long as the paraphrase actually paraphrased what Hawke was going to say instead of something completely different.

If Hawke was going to say "You did the right thing", something to that effect should have appeared on the wheel instead of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "I'm glad you came back".

Maria Caliban wrote...
I had more 'that's not what I meant' moments with DA II than with both the MEs combined.

Yes, me too. In the ME games, answers were more often "slightly off", but "that's emphatically not what I meant" is much more prevalent in DA2.

Hawke says "You did the right thing" because of how that friendship/rivalry is supposed to be playing out. The trick in it is trying to get her to do the right thing. Was the solution the same as you clicked? Nah but it translates for the intial click right does it not? It's the solution for "welcome back". There is no perfect paraphase or response. But what Hawke actually says makes perfect sense. Hawke spends most of the time in dialogue with her trying to get her do the right thing. It's not great writing or anything but at least the Dialogue is consistant.

No, that is actually not the case for my Hawke. As I explained in my very first post. Apart from that, all I am saying that IS THAT DAMNED GAME SHOULD TELL ME WHAT TO EXPECT!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that so goddamned difficuit to understand? Put "You did the right thing" on the wheel and I would know what option not to select. I do not care how about "how it is supposed to be taken". I care about what I see on the screen and what I hear my Hawke speaking***. I care about roleplaying. And NO, the wheel paraphrase is NOT consistent with the response. That is EXACTLY the point.

My, must I use a grenade to make people understand my complaint? There is no justification for a misleading paraphrase that would have been 100% AVOIDABLE! 

Edit:
And of course I can live with differences between the shown and the spoken. But they should not be completely different.

***:
I suspect that any Bioware writer would agree that players should not need to analyze the system in-depth to understand why Hawke says what in any given conversation. That's just bad scene design.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 11:02 .

[sphinxess]

FemHawke - I would like my agressive reponse to be like a shout of "Enough!" instead of "stop fighting" in a soft voice.at least once in awhile.

[Torax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Torax wrote...
"You did the right thing" or "I take responsibility" is how how the game is going to take it. Just because the Voice Actor's lines don't appease you? Doesn't change the fact that if you click an Olive Branch it means a diplomatic. If you click and Aggressive it means the game will consider it an aggressive choice. You read far too much into the character's voice work while ignoring a game mechanic functioning properly.

How the game takes it is of no relevance to me as a roleplayer. Should the game take "I'm glad you came back" and "You did the right thing" as the same kind of reponse I could live with it - as long as the paraphrase actually paraphrased what Hawke was going to say instead of something completely different.

If Hawke was going to say "You did the right thing", something to that effect should have appeared on the wheel instead of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "I'm glad you came back".

Maria Caliban wrote...
I had more 'that's not what I meant' moments with DA II than with both the MEs combined.

Yes, me too. In the ME games, answers were more often "slightly off", but "that's emphatically not what I meant" is much more prevalent in DA2.

Hawke says "You did the right thing" because of how that friendship/rivalry is supposed to be playing out. The trick in it is trying to get her to do the right thing. Was the solution the same as you clicked? Nah but it translates for the intial click right does it not? It's the solution for "welcome back". There is no perfect paraphase or response. But what Hawke actually says makes perfect sense. Hawke spends most of the time in dialogue with her trying to get her do the right thing. It's not great writing or anything but at least the Dialogue is consistant.

No, that is actually not the case for my Hawke. As I explained in my very first post. Apart from that, all I am saying that IS THAT DAMNED GAME SHOULD TELL ME WHAT TO EXPECT!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that so goddamned difficuit to understand? Put "You did the right thing" on the wheel and I would know what option not to select. I do not care how about "how it is supposed to be taken". I care about what I see on the screen and what I hear my Hawke speaking. I care about roleplaying. And NO, the wheel paraphrase is NOT consistent with the response. That is EXACTLY the point.

My, must I use a grenade to make people understand my complaint? There is no justification for a misleading paraphrase that would have been 100% AVOIDABLE! 

Edit:
And of course I can live with differences between the shown and the spoken. But they should not be completely different.

So you are complaining to complain? If that was your point from the start why are you continuing it? You made your point did you not? I was just giving a response. Unless you are adding anything new to it? Stop replying to it.

[Ieldra]

I reply because you insist on trying to invalidate my point by using arguments not relevant to the point I was making.

[Axekix]

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

Haha, I'm the same way.  For the most part, I think the dialogue in DA2 was "ok."  But there were a few times where my "mean" choice came out way more aggressive or d*ckish than I intended, and a few times where the "nice" choice came out waaaaay too soft.

TBH, I think I'll always prefer a silent protagonist.  It just feels much easier to connect personally without having the game put words in my mouth.

[Ieldra]

Torax wrote...
Function well is one thing. But just because you don't agree with what the characters are saying doesn't mean it is not functioning properly...

Again. and again until I have hammered this point into your brain:
I am not disagreeing with what the characters are saying. I am disagreeing with the way the game misleads me about what my own character is going to say.

We should not have to repeat conversations until we get the least objectionable sequence in order to roleplay our characters.

Edit:
Perhaps, Torax, you play the game differently than I do. I do not "choose the diplomatic response". I look at what the wheel tells me. I see a laurel for the diplomatic response, so I expect something "appropriate to the situation". I see the text "I'm glad you came back", which is, after all, one of several appropriate responses, but the only nice one, to her coming back. I want to be nice, so I choose that. What I get is anything but that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Torax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I reply because you insist on trying to invalidate my point by using arguments not relevant to the point I was making.

My responses do not invalidate your opinion. Unless you find your opinion so flawed and weak from the start. I'm just stating how they maped it out. You may not like it. I'm not even saying it's perfect. Later on you made it sound like their system was not working well. That is bias and that one statement was just opinion. Their mechanics are not working to your liking. But they do work. My points was just in how the game is functioning from a story stand point. Before that was about how the choices can change how the character speaks. None of it was to invalidate. Just stating how it plays.

Edited to add.

You do realize 2 people can disagree right? It's you thinking I'm out to get you or something? I don't truly think your opinions are completely flawed. Just stating how they seemed to design it.

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Torax]

Axekix wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

Haha, I'm the same way.  For the most part, I think the dialogue in DA2 was "ok."  But there were a few times where my "mean" choice came out way more aggressive or d*ckish than I intended, and a few times where the "nice" choice came out waaaaay too soft.

TBH, I think I'll always prefer a silent protagonist.  It just feels much easier to connect personally without having the game put words in my mouth.

I'm mixed. It's more lively to have the character a part of it. But the first time I saw Shepard talking I was like "Why did he say that?". They are getting better with icons and so on. But it still doesn't work right. I get the feeling though my Dalish warden maybe said more than the little sentence I clicked on. Then again it's also lame if every single conversation is a built out scripted cinematic. Makes every time you're talking to a character in DA2 less spontaneous. I kind of miss the camp. Well not kind of. I really do miss the camp.

[silver-crescent]

I only had one really big case of "that's not what I meant!!!" during the whole game.

When you confront the desire demon with Sebastian at the Harimann estate, there's an option to say "don't listen to her" which instead of being something like "ignore the demon, don't let her get to you" is actually more like "don't listen to her, you shouldn't worry about fighting for what's your birthright" or something like that.

[NaclynE]

klarabella wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

supakillaii wrote...
"I'll take responsibility"

It
was a WTF moment for me when I selected this. I got the impression it
meant Hawke would take responsibility, not that he would blame the whole
thing on Merrill.

Indeed. I took "I take responsibility"
as "I take responsibility for what happened", which I wouldn't select
because it sounds like "I take the blame", but the intention was "I take
responsibility for preventing further damage".

For me it was misleading as well. I went for the other options first and was horrified to see that it meant coddling Merrill. Then I shrugged and tried this one and it was perfect for my Hawke. It was a surprise, though.

I agree. I usually put myself into the characters shoes and for some reason I always seem to have the dialog not fit the character. Like my second playthrough character I always take a mercenary approach to things and take the 'Is there money involved?' approach to things. Sometimes I got what I was after but other moments and I get wierded out things like not forceing discounts when the option is availible. My character is the type to grab the merchant by the neck and pull him to her face and then go "How aboout now?" Sadly....It's nonexsistant.

[Sabariel]

Sometimes the "Charming" options could basically just be replaced with "Derp!" and there would be no difference

[NaclynE]

Axekix wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

Haha, I'm the same way.  For the most part, I think the dialogue in DA2 was "ok."  But there were a few times where my "mean" choice came out way more aggressive or d*ckish than I intended, and a few times where the "nice" choice came out waaaaay too soft.

TBH, I think I'll always prefer a silent protagonist.  It just feels much easier to connect personally without having the game put words in my mouth.

Agreed. I sometimes hate how my character has a one sided oppion with a voiced character and dictates why. like "I'm sorry mother, he did al that he could to save us but we need to get out of here" or "Lets not worry about him, we need to save ourselves first". I rather have the options and have people respond to my choice in the form of "WHAT!?" or "Oh...you're right" as examples.

[Rifneno]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Having played both Mass Effects through save-reloading every possible dialogue option to make sure the 'final' conversation goes exactly how I want, and having continued this trend into DAII, I can honestly say that the dialogue options in this game are far more obvious in their intent. I don't recall any major "That wasn't what I meant" moments in this game, which can partly be attribute to the icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel.

On that note, I really liked the personality system they implementend.

This.  The options in Mordin's loyalty mission made me want to punch a baby.

*selections option reading, "Want to get a coffee after this?"*
Shepard:  Genocide is wrong, you sick murdering freak.

WHAT?!

There are some in DA2 that could've been a bit more obvious in their intent, but none of them made me go, "WHAT WAS THAT?!" like in ME2.

[NaclynE]

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

In DA2 when I was telling off the Antivan shop keeper for being disrespectful, I was hoping for something a little less forceful since my paragon-like Hawke is pretty nice/charming/witty. I said something about if he treated his customers in that way he'd get more bruises than coins.

In ME, when my FemShep paragon wanted Harkin to stop calling her 'sweetheart' she was all like CUT THAT OUT OR YOU'LL BE PICKING YER GODDAMN TEETH OFF THE FLOOR [paraphrasing]. Pretty out of character for my Shep.

I don't know if DA2 has different was of saying the same dialogue option, you know, like later on when your character's personality is more certain? So, even if you pick the aggressive choice it would come out phrased wittily aggressive? Perhaps I'm not making sense.

To be honest you're making sense. I swore I had that happen in many MASS EFFECT 1 playthroughs due to my background history. One of my characters had a rough and rugid background but had that bad girl personality at times show through renegade choices which fit the character. Tragically You don't have that luxery in Dragon Age 2 because to me Hawke doesn't seem to be multi personalitied and seems to be one tracked minded. However you just mainly effect how she acts in a scenario she's in. like Merril says "I love you....wait...that was silly of me to say just now." Would you be like "I love you too Merril" or be like "We have to see by going again perhaps?" or "Yes it was indeed silly?" It doesn't seem to factor in much to what you say or do except for important tasks and story plots.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Torax wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Having played both Mass Effects through save-reloading every possible dialogue option to make sure the 'final' conversation goes exactly how I want, and having continued this trend into DAII, I can honestly say that the dialogue options in this game are far more obvious in their intent. I don't recall any major "That wasn't what I meant" moments in this game, which can partly be attribute to the icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel.

Well, yes...you can use the middle response more often. But the main problem doesn't go away: you shouldn't be pushed into avoiding the diplomatic/helpful or aggressive/decisive options because the game fails to tell you what to expect. And the witty/Ironic options have their own problems of being misleading - most often in the level of irony or sarcasm. 

On that note, I really liked the personality system they implementend.

I do, too. But it does need some more work to function well.

Function well is one thing. But just because you don't agree with what the characters are saying doesn't mean it is not functioning properly...

The problem is not how they say something it is indeed about what they say. The outcome is important. If something does not work as advertized, it means it is not working. As in disfunctional. Broken.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 avril 2011 - 11:51 .

[nicethugbert]

I played the diplomatic route 99% of the time, used witty route for Varric friendship. I didn't see any problems and I enjoyed not knowing exactly what Hawke would say until he said it.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Problem if you are looking at it from the Merrill perspective. If you are in a "friendship" with Merrill. That means you are going to Coddle. There is no option not to coddle. Such is life.

No, when I choose Friendship and supported her goal to restore the Eluvian, it's because I supported the idea that a person who is versed in the lore of her people probably knows more about Dalish culture than I do as a human. It had nothing to do with "coddling." Hawke supported her the same way she supported Hawke when he went into the Deep Roads for the all important task of making $$$.

Torax wrote...

Being her friend even as her love interest. Means you support her blood magic, the mirror and all the destruction that is going around. So "I take responsibility" can play out differently though this.

The problem is "I take responsibility" = "Merrill's fault," and I didn't intend to say it's Merrill's fault since Marethari is an adult who made her own choices.

Torax wrote...

Just like the characters evolving. Even being a Friend or Rival can completely change your options and what your character will say.

The problem is the lack of control over dialogue when we choose an option and Hawke ends up saying something entirely different than what's intended.

[Torax]

Lobs, just pointing out what happens as a friend route at that point in the game. What you want versus what they gave you was a different thing. But it's how they built the Friendship line. I was just explaining why Hawke says things a certain way. If people find everything hawke is saying as agreeable? It's more likely cause it's the Friendship path. You actually don't even get some paths of conversation because it's the Friendship path. Which while you may not see it as "coddle" others have.

As for lack of control on our part? No we don't have it. The writers wanted it a specific way apparently. For better or worse. Why I stick with Rivalry for Merrill.

[Andronic0s]

I agree, many times picking a dialogue left me with a wtf feeling as what Hawke proceeded to say was hardly aligned with the small description.

The thing I liked though was that aggressive responses are not too bad, it is just a no-nonsense personality without going all evil