128 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Lobs, just pointing out what happens as a friend route at that point in the game. What you want versus what they gave you was a different thing. But it's how they built the Friendship line. I was just explaining why Hawke says things a certain way. If people find everything hawke is saying as agreeable? It's more likely cause it's the Friendship path. You actually don't even get some paths of conversation because it's the Friendship path. Which while you may not see it as "coddle" others have.

As for lack of control on our part? No we don't have it. The writers wanted it a specific way apparently. For better or worse. Why I stick with Rivalry for Merrill.

I understand what you're saying, Torax, but I feel it's problematic because, regardless of the tone of voice (whether it's diplomatic or aggressive), it still results in the issue that what I choose =/= what Hawke says.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Lobs, just pointing out what happens as a friend route at that point in the game. What you want versus what they gave you was a different thing. But it's how they built the Friendship line. I was just explaining why Hawke says things a certain way. If people find everything hawke is saying as agreeable? It's more likely cause it's the Friendship path. You actually don't even get some paths of conversation because it's the Friendship path. Which while you may not see it as "coddle" others have.

As for lack of control on our part? No we don't have it. The writers wanted it a specific way apparently. For better or worse. Why I stick with Rivalry for Merrill.

I understand what you're saying, Torax, but I feel it's problematic because, regardless of the tone of voice (whether it's diplomatic or aggressive), it still results in the issue that what I choose =/= what Hawke says.

To also be fair. They'd never please everyone. Even if they telegraphed every response. Wouldn't many just complain that they didn't get a choice they liked? Either people accept the story they are presented with after selecting options in conversations or they do not. If it was even fit to match 1 player's liking, I'm sure another player wouldn't find it as fitting. We are all different after all.

[Vormaerin]

Obviously, the cumulative nature dialogue system can result in some paraphrases getting pretty off base. I didn't find it to be a big problem, but it did happen at times. Also, the male hawke voice actor seems to be better suited for aggressive and less well suited for sarcastic in his delivery, whereas the female hawke voice actor tended to do exceptionally well with sarcastic.

I still think its much better than the full text version. I don't find the full text any more likely to do exactly what I want. It just means that I know beforehand that I'm picking the least bad option in those cases where I don't like the options.

I really do like how the cumulative nature of this system works overall. I like that I have different dialogue options and cut scene responses based on whether I am usually nice or usually nasty. I like how my options are different if we are friends or rivals. It is a problem that a lot of people don't understand the implications of the friend/rival structure. Friend means "agrees with the NPC's views' and rival means "disagrees with views". So a talking to a rival Fenris will usually result in attempts to get him to change his opinion, even if that is not entirely clear in the paraphrase.

I can live with the occasional inability to 'switch gears' if it gives the rest of the coolness of the system.

The last nice thing about the wheel is that I haven't read all the dialogue options the first time through the game. If I play a different personality combination, I'm going to get different options and I'm going to hear new conversations on the subsequent play throughs.

[Andronic0s]

The problem I have with the little sentences in the wheel is that because I can not see what Hawke/Shepard is going to say (or at least an accurate approximation) I feel as if him guiding my character in a certain path (paragon/renegade, noble/sarcastic/aggresive) rather than roleplaying as I felt in DAO, in where I could choose exactly what the character would say in a situation rather than choosing a personality type response

[Vormaerin]

Well, choose exactly which 'written by someone else' option I want. I guess I just don't see that as a whole lot different. Its still David Gaider's words (or whichever writer did that character) not mine.

[Andronic0s]

Yes but I have the option to read them and select the closest one to what I want to do, while many a time in DA2 I chose something and went "wow that is not what I wanted to say"

[Vormaerin]

I can understand that. I just find that that both systems are "flawed" in the matter of expressing my personal preferences and I prefer the benefits of the wheel system on replayability and speed of play over the occasional 'wtf?' moment.

[Ieldra]

I think the main problem in my initial example (selecting "I'm glad you came back" in the first talk with Isabela after she came back and getting "You did the right thing" as Hawke's actual line) is this:

The conversation is set up in a way that suggests it will be about Hawke's personal reaction to her betrayal - he can basically forgive and and be glad she's back, be angry about it or take the middle option and say it is out of character for her or something like that, IIRC.

Hawke's actual line, however, refers to her stealing the book from the qunari and "doing the right thing" by bringing it back. Hawke's response links these two aspects of the conversation, and it fails if your Hawke wants to forgive Isabela for her betrayal (the personal angle) but would have found it better had the book been lost (the plot angle).

So for me, Hawke's actual line isn't just slighly off, it contradicts the Hawke I envision. And I can't express that I'm glad Isabela is back because I then also express that I am glad the book is back - which I am not, or if I am, for reasons of expediency only. The "right thing" doesn't come into it at all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 01:08 .

[LyndseyCousland]

Torax wrote...

Axekix wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

This has bugged me in in a few Bioware creations. I usually have a save before talking to anyone I think will be important. I like my conversations to go just so.

Haha, I'm the same way.  For the most part, I think the dialogue in DA2 was "ok."  But there were a few times where my "mean" choice came out way more aggressive or d*ckish than I intended, and a few times where the "nice" choice came out waaaaay too soft.

TBH, I think I'll always prefer a silent protagonist.  It just feels much easier to connect personally without having the game put words in my mouth.

I'm mixed. It's more lively to have the character a part of it. But the first time I saw Shepard talking I was like "Why did he say that?". They are getting better with icons and so on. But it still doesn't work right. I get the feeling though my Dalish warden maybe said more than the little sentence I clicked on. Then again it's also lame if every single conversation is a built out scripted cinematic. Makes every time you're talking to a character in DA2 less spontaneous. I kind of miss the camp. Well not kind of. I really do miss the camp.

(I loooooved the party camp too)

I have to say, the main thing I like about the dialogue system in DA2 is the icons. Not just because they give me a better idea of how Hawke will act but... THEY SO CUTE!

I actually really enjoy Hawke having a voice, maybe because I practically fell in love with my FemShep because of her Paragon-y badassedness. These games feel more like movies than just an RPG for me so a voice adds to the experience. In a game like Oblivion or Fallout, I don't mind the silence since they don't really even try to get you emotionally invested in your own character.

The uber lame thing is I often found myself doing my own voice acting for DA:O so as to feel more immersed, ahaha!

[Kilshrek]

I can't really recall too many "that's not what I meant" moments right now, but my choice is also the most discussed one. I'll take responsibility, I expected to take the heat off Merrill, not stop short of saying "Oh, uh.. Merrill kinda killed Marethari but it's all cool I'll just take her away now and you'll never see us again". Yep.

Most of the other times the icons kind of help in coming up with the response you want. Though punny Hawke is not funny. Well mostly in a so bad its funny kind of way.

[Vormaerin]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So for me, Hawke's actual line isn't just slighly off, it contradicts the Hawke I envision. And I can't express that I'm glad Isabela is back because I then also express that I am glad the book is back - which I am not, or if I am, for reasons of expediency only. The "right thing" doesn't come into it at all.

This would be the case if the text was spelled out for you also, though.   The problem here is that you envision a Hawke the writer did not think of.

Its the same issue I have with the aftermath of "All that Remains".  I don't want to chew out Avelline.  I want to take that "O" note and shove it down Meredith and Orsino's throats.     Which isn't an option as far as I am aware.

[Maria Caliban]

Torax wrote...

So you are complaining to complain? If that was your point from the start why are you continuing it? You made your point did you not? I was just giving a response. Unless you are adding anything new to it? Stop replying to it.

She had an issue with a game system. She's given specific examples of when the system failed to work as intended.

Telling a thread starter to shut up on her own thread because you don't agree with her problem is pretty trollish.

Vormaerin wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
So for me, Hawke's actual line isn't just slighly off, it contradicts the Hawke I envision. And I can't express that I'm glad Isabela is back because I then also express that I am glad the book is back - which I am not, or if I am, for reasons of expediency only. The "right thing" doesn't come into it at all.

This would be the case if the text was spelled out for you also, though.   The problem here is that you envision a Hawke the writer did not think of.

I agree. I think 'the writers didn't accommodate the character I came up with' and 'the implications of the dialogue wheel were different than the result' are different problems.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[Ieldra]

Vormaerin wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
So for me, Hawke's actual line isn't just slighly off, it contradicts the Hawke I envision. And I can't express that I'm glad Isabela is back because I then also express that I am glad the book is back - which I am not, or if I am, for reasons of expediency only. The "right thing" doesn't come into it at all.

This would be the case if the text was spelled out for you also, though.   The problem here is that you envision a Hawke the writer did not think of.

Its the same issue I have with the aftermath of "All that Remains".  I don't want to chew out Avelline.  I want to take that "O" note and shove it down Meredith and Orsino's throats.     Which isn't an option as far as I am aware.

Yes, the problem with that response would not change. But if the text was spelled out I would know that taking the middle option would be less out of character than taking the top option.

[Maria Caliban]

Would anyone agree that the charming/humorous ones are the easiest to predict?

[Vormaerin]

Maybe.. I think they are less affected by whether you are friend or rival with the NPC, so yeah, probably.

[silver-crescent]

I thought it was a bit silly how sometimes the "sarcastic" line was basically just asking for more information.

[nikkylee]

I know there were a few WTF moments for me, but the only specific one I can think of right now was at the end, after Anders' little episode. There was an option that said something about, "And the innocents?"

I was thinking, cool, call him out. "What about all those innocent people??" My Hawke was a diplomatic mage supporter, and had romanced Anders. So it fit, more or less. What she said was more along the lines of, "You're a filthy murdering bastard!!"

[Beerfish]

supakillaii wrote...

"I'll take responsibility"

Agreed, that was the biggest one for me that I recall.

[Darth Obvious]

When trying to get on Merrill's good side, the option "Why did he run?" seemed innocuous enough.

However, the actual voiced response bordered on accusatory, and made Merrill mad. Shrug.

[Sabriana]

I had quite a few "Wait! What?" moments with that silly wheel. I can think of only one right now, the following is just one of many.

When my Hawke gives Fenris the book, the wheel has the flirt option "I can teach you", making it a nice, personal, supporting, and sweet option (imo). What comes out of her mouth? A cliche. A silly, dumb cliche. "It's never to late to learn." What?

That's just one of quite a few conversations that completely removed me from my PC and out of the game. I have to F5 and F9 now for conversations.

Great RPGing. Really. /sarcasm

[The Angry One]

This problem will be completely solved in DA3...

.. there will be no dialog. Gets in the way of fighting rooftop bandits.

[Arppis]

Beerfish wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

"I'll take responsibility"

Agreed, that was the biggest one for me that I recall.

Same. That was the only line that mislead me in the game.

[Merced652]

 The whole blurted out "what about love" with some retarded expression and hurt puppy dog eyes in reference to Isabela after boning. I was like... seriously?

What about love
Don't you want someone to care about you
What about love
Don't let it slip away
What about love
I only want to share it with you
You might need it someday

[Addai]

This is where having low expectations helps. I hate a voiced PC, so I expect Shepard and Hawke to be a doofus and loose cannon, and my role as player to be minimal. They aren't my character, they're the writers' character. So I had no problem with either character in terms of the dialogue wheel and what the options produced.

[Ieldra]

Merced652 wrote...
The whole blurted out "what about love" with some retarded expression and hurt puppy dog eyes in reference to Isabela after boning. I was like... seriously?

Yeah, that was retarded. Particularly the first choice after she asks "You won't bring feelings into it...?"

But not so much misleading paraphrases actually. When I saw the two options, I knew I had the choice between the retarded and ending the relationship. The choices after that weren't so bad. Still misleading, though.

As a general comment: I don't think that re-loading until we find an option that suits us is how Bioware intended the scenes to go. Since they do - at least some do - I can only say: fix it.

@Addai:
Having low expectations doesn't make it hurt less. I want to roleplay my character. The frustrating thing is that DA2 actually gives me the opportunity. It only doesn't let me recognize it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 03:47 .