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[LobselVith8]

One of the central themes of DA2 is the divide between the templars and the mages, and one of our choices is to be an apostate Hawke. Although we get the impression that the life of an apostate is a dangerous one because they're always at risk of being discovered, Hawke never has to face those dangers. While in Kirkwall, the central base of power for the templars across eastern Thedas, Hawke can use magical abilities a few minuets after getting off the boat, and none of the templars or members of the city guard seem to notice that he used magic to defeat the deserters.

Unlike DA:O, the protagonist mage isn't protected by the fact that he's a Grey Warden - Hawke is a peniless and virtually powerless apostate, in a society where even the son of a powerful Arl (like Connor) is forced to go to the Circle of Magi. Despite occassional references here and there, Hawke can end up using magic with impunity, and he never faces any level of persecution as an apostate. There's never a case of Hawke having to deal with the templars because he's an apostate; no one tries to capture him or kill him, and even Knight-Captain Cullen can see Hawke perform magic and has amnesia about the entire experience when he tells Hawke that mages aren't people "like you and me." Hawke is never under any real threat of getting taken by the templars, he never need to worry that witnesses are going to report him, and he never has to be concerned that his apostate companions are going to be captured or killed either.

We get Anders dismissing the Circles as slavery, we get Fenris supporting them as justified, but we're never allowed to shape an opinion based on personal experience. Hawke never has to endure Bethany being made tranquil for being an illegal mage, Hawke never has to worry that the apostates Merrill or Anders are going to be taken away by the templars, and Hawke never has to face the dangers of living a life as an apostate because everyone is blind to his existance as an illegal mage. There's a certain disconnect to the story because even as an illegal mage, Hawke never lives the life of one.

[Vormaerin]

Honestly? I think its because they realized too many people would cry. As much as I like that level of detail, I've not found that is very popular over all in talking with other people.

Its also a pain in the rear to script.   What if the PCs kill Thrask or Cullen after a battle like that?  Or do you just give the PC the murder knife if spotted?  That would be popular...

Modifié par Vormaerin, 04 avril 2011 - 12:53 .

[TobiTobsen]

Gameplay and Story segregation.

I facepalmed the moment when Leandra suggested to go to Kirkwall.

"Hey Kids! Let's go to Kirkwall with our mage family members! What? Kirkwall is the city with the highest Templar influence in the Free Marches? Who cares?!"

If you have to choose Kirkwall I would even support it if you couldn't play a mage yourself. That would even make the final choice a little bit more interesting because there isn't a 33% chance that it isn't really a choice to begin with.

For the party members... i don't know... maybe restrict them to missions outside of Kirkwall?

But it is like it is. So I'll gave to say it's Gameplay and Story segregation and we have to live with it.

[Asdara]

Well if you want to borrow it from elsewhere, just play the Mage origin of DAO again - that shows more of the Circle's situation of tolerable but intolerable oppression under the Chantry than the crazy situation that's gone way past the line in Kirkwall anyway.

[sylvanaerie]

Hawke is protected by the 'almighty plot armor' allowing feats of magical skill with impunity in the city.
In Act 1 Hawke is a nobody and I would imagine is careful when and where she uses her magic. I imagine Cullen, Keran, Emeric, Thrask all kept mum about her powers because Hawke helped them.
Had one of the templars made an issue, Hawke, Merrill, Anders and possibly Bethany would have been taken as soon as they used magic in the city. And how interesting would the game be when you are stuck in the Gallows and watched 24/7. Game over.
Meredith doesn't meet him till the end of Act 2, where she DOES mention his use of magic but overlooks it in the face of a greater threat (Arishok and his army). I believe she fully intended to arrest him after the crisis but then he becomes the Champion of Kirkwall. You can see it on her face! At that point he's too known/important to be taken in since he basically saved the city from the Arishok.
In Act 3, at the final confrontation she intends to kill Hawke but it's too late, even Meredith's own people no longer respect her and follow her.
I would have maybe liked more to the beginning when you are avoiding the the darkspawn and the templars. All we get of mention is Wesley and it's a bare hint of avoidance. I would imagine a game spent dodging templars wouldn't be to most people's tastes (it wouldn't to mine, I have other things I am doing and avoiding random Templar gang #206 would get really old really fast).
I think they did a good job presenting the threat without it hampering game play/plot too much.
BTW My Hawke is a spirit healer so most of her magic was supportive not destructive/flashy.  I thought it amusing when Fenris notes her using magic in his quest when all she did was an occasional heal and fire a lot of little bolts from her staff.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 04 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[Andronic0s]

Most likely for the same reason you cannot skip almost any boss fight in the game regardless of choice, they did not wanted to spend time and resources into developing something that would be avoided by most people.
They could have at least made the robes not look to so obviously scream I AM MAGE!!!

Modifié par Andronic0s, 04 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[sylvanaerie]

Andronic0s wrote...

Most likely for the same reason you cannot skip almost any boss fight in the game regardless of choice, they did not wanted to spend time and resources into developing something that would be avoided by most people.
They could have at least made the robes not look to so obviously scream I AM MAGE!!!

Some of them didn't.  The starting set and the set you wear at the beginning of Act 1 look like rogue leathers.  And there is a set you get off the raiders that looks like pirate gear.
And of course at the end you're wearing plate mail Champion gear.
But ya, the robes just kinda scream mage.

[Johun]

My first playthrough was as a mage because I wanted the mage & templar conflict to feel more personal. I found the conflict to be more engaging as a non-mage, seen through Bethany's experiences. This is because Hawke's choices actually had consequences for Bethany, while they had none for him/herself.

[TobiTobsen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Hawke is protected by the 'almighty plot armor' allowing feats of magical skill with impunity in the city.
In Act 1 Hawke is a nobody and I would imagine is careful when and where she uses her magic. I imagine Cullen, Keran, Emeric, Thrask all kept mum about her powers because Hawke helped them.

Like Wesley?

*gets rushed by darkspawn; sees Bethany* "APOSTATE! THE ORDER DICTATES!

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[sylvanaerie]

TobiTobsen wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Hawke is protected by the 'almighty plot armor' allowing feats of magical skill with impunity in the city.
In Act 1 Hawke is a nobody and I would imagine is careful when and where she uses her magic. I imagine Cullen, Keran, Emeric, Thrask all kept mum about her powers because Hawke helped them.

Like Wesley?

*gets rushed by darmspawn; sees Bethany* "APOSTATE! THE ORDER DICTATES!

And yet Wesley didn't do anything either.  I suppose he could have TRIED to run Bethany/Hawke through for being apostates but a bigger danger was present and there is strength in numbers, and they weren't in the middle of a fight, there was a lull for a moment.
Plus Wesley wasn't a total dick, his wife was able to talk him down after Hawke pulled out 'the Stare' on him.
These other templars had opportunity to see Hawke/his companions in action (well, except maybe Keran who was semi conscious when you rescue him) and did nothing for 7 years.
Thrask even apologizes for kidnapping your loved one in Best Served Cold because he respects Hawke.

[TobiTobsen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Hawke is protected by the 'almighty plot armor' allowing feats of magical skill with impunity in the city.
In Act 1 Hawke is a nobody and I would imagine is careful when and where she uses her magic. I imagine Cullen, Keran, Emeric, Thrask all kept mum about her powers because Hawke helped them.

Like Wesley?

*gets rushed by darmspawn; sees Bethany* "APOSTATE! THE ORDER DICTATES!

And yet Wesley didn't do anything either.  I suppose he could have TRIED to run Bethany/Hawke through for being apostates but a bigger danger was present and there is strength in numbers, and they weren't in the middle of a fight, there was a lull for a moment.
Plus Wesley wasn't a total dick, his wife was able to talk him down after Hawke pulled out 'the Stare' on him.
These other templars had opportunity to see Hawke/his companions in action (well, except maybe Keran who was semi conscious when you rescue him) and did nothing for 7 years.
Thrask even apologizes for kidnapping your loved one in Best Served Cold because he respects Hawke.

Because the other characters aren't even allowed to notice the fact that you're a mage.
Do you really think Cullen would allow you to walk away after you rescued his life with magic? That Cullen that you rescued in the mage tower in Origins, who immediately ask his Knight Commander to slaughter every single mage that helped to rescue him?

And Wesley was in a position where he couldn't win. He was wounded, and alone in his "THE ORDER DICTATES" point of view. The other characters aren't. They could just send a whole group of templars after you.

The characters don't do anything for 7 years because Bioware dictates... not the Order

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Master Shiori]

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

[TobiTobsen]

Master Shiori wrote...

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

They could have done something similar to the whole Cowled Wizard stuff in Baldur's Gate 2. You have the whole magic problem there too. Maybe bribe some templars to look away or pretend you're are circle mage or something. Varric even lies to Ser Karras in such a fashion and it works.

Anything would have been better than the whole "nobody noticed anything" stuff they did, imo.

[Plaintiff]

A more immediate sense of personal danger would've been great, but I don't think it jsutifies all the extra effort needed to write a whole lot of extra stuff just for Mage-Hawke. Merrill never mentioned being bothered, but Anders did keep saying the templars were hanging around his clinic, when there were never any to be seen. And that underground mage-group he was with sounded pretty cool. A few side missions where you help them out would've been neat. And they could've had a quest where Anders is taken/attacked by the templars and has to be rescued.

[cleosilver]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Most likely for the same reason you cannot skip almost any boss fight in the game regardless of choice, they did not wanted to spend time and resources into developing something that would be avoided by most people.
They could have at least made the robes not look to so obviously scream I AM MAGE!!!

Some of them didn't.  The starting set and the set you wear at the beginning of Act 1 look like rogue leathers.  And there is a set you get off the raiders that looks like pirate gear.
And of course at the end you're wearing plate mail Champion gear.
But ya, the robes just kinda scream mage.

You can get away with the robes as FHawke since they're just pretty dresses Honest Guv

[sylvanaerie]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

They could have done something similar to the whole Cowled Wizard stuff in Baldur's Gate 2. You have the whole magic problem there too. Maybe bribe some templars to look away or pretend you're are circle mage or something. Varric even lies to Ser Karras in such a fashion and it works.

Anything would have been better than the whole "nobody noticed anything" stuff they did, imo.

Umm yea...with what money?  The whole of Act 1 is getting up enough money/status that the templars can't touch you/Bethany.  Do you really think if Cullen is that kill crazy whackjob he was at the end of the Broken Circle, he will accept a bribe to keep quiet?
As i pointed out the very beginning of my first post that Mage Hawke is protected by the "almighty plot armor" that eliminates boring consequences like being stuck in the Gallows 24/7 or having Cullen shove a 'sword of mercy' into him.  That would mean: Most boring GAME OVER ever.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

One of the central themes of DA2 is the divide between the templars and the mages, and one of our choices is to be an apostate Hawke. Although we get the impression that the life of an apostate is a dangerous one because they're always at risk of being discovered, Hawke never has to face those dangers. While in Kirkwall, the central base of power for the templars across eastern Thedas, Hawke can use magical abilities a few minuets after getting off the boat, and none of the templars or members of the city guard seem to notice that he used magic to defeat the deserters.

Unlike DA:O, the protagonist mage isn't protected by the fact that he's a Grey Warden - Hawke is a peniless and virtually powerless apostate, in a society where even the son of a powerful Arl (like Connor) is forced to go to the Circle of Magi. Despite occassional references here and there, Hawke can end up using magic with impunity, and he never faces any level of persecution as an apostate. There's never a case of Hawke having to deal with the templars because he's an apostate; no one tries to capture him or kill him, and even Knight-Captain Cullen can see Hawke perform magic and has amnesia about the entire experience when he tells Hawke that mages aren't people "like you and me." Hawke is never under any real threat of getting taken by the templars, he never need to worry that witnesses are going to report him, and he never has to be concerned that his apostate companions are going to be captured or killed either.

We get Anders dismissing the Circles as slavery, we get Fenris supporting them as justified, but we're never allowed to shape an opinion based on personal experience. Hawke never has to endure Bethany being made tranquil for being an illegal mage, Hawke never has to worry that the apostates Merrill or Anders are going to be taken away by the templars, and Hawke never has to face the dangers of living a life as an apostate because everyone is blind to his existance as an illegal mage. There's a certain disconnect to the story because even as an illegal mage, Hawke never lives the life of one.

Well after act 3 Hawke is protected by his title and forcing the champion into the circle or tranquiling or killing him would cause uproar from the people, that and Meredith manages to use the fact that he is an apostate and a free one to keep hawke on a leash and have him do her dirty work for her since he has proved himself to be a capable and strong fighter.

Act 2.. This one is a bit more dismissive but here it is anyway, He is pretty much the only one that can speak with the Arishok openly and as a result really the only possible person who can ease tensions between the Qunari and Kirkwall, Since like the Viscount says he dismisses him and wont talk to him and the same can be assumed for Meredith. So the Templars may know his an Apostate (Save for the more slow ones lol) Meredith however might but overlook it. Plus Hawke has alot of money from his expedition, he might be able to bribe some = More lyrium for them =D... More the Arishok thing tho

As for Act 1.. Nfi, doesn't make any sense on any level lol

[ReallyRue]

If nothing else, it would have been nice to be waylaid at night by Templars (similar to how Meeran or Dougal ambush you) who intend to drag Hawke (and/or companions) to the Circle or kill them.

Or if a couple of eager Templars came to the mansion to apprehend Hawke, before s/he had the Champion title as protection. Something small like that just to remind you that being an apostate is dangerous.

[Maverick827]

I remember Meredith calling me out for being a mage a few times. /shrug

[Kimberly Shaw]

http://gon.cdn.on.ne...DragonMage2.jpg

First of all, THAT comic is genius.

Second of all, the game needs to stop allowing you to be a Blood Mage without any consequence. As much as an Origins fanboy as I am, it made no sense then that you could give Wynne that specialization. That shouldn't have been allowed, ever. And I'm glad they restricted companion specializations in this game and gave us the unique skills.

BUT...if you make yourself a blood mage in DA2, considering how important Blood Magic is to the entire game, it should have some affect on the story. That it doesn't is even more ridiculous than the Apostate thing which Bioware Fanboys and Girls are some how defending on this very thread.

[Madkipz]

Similar to the origins handling of multiple race beginnings, occasionally someone stops by to remind you that you are a dwarf / elf / human.

it had not needed to be much, just a few templars in act 1 / 2.

Agreed on the blood magic thing though. At some point in a mage hawke playtrough, **** NEEDS TO GET REAL.

Modifié par Madkipz, 04 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[TobiTobsen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

They could have done something similar to the whole Cowled Wizard stuff in Baldur's Gate 2. You have the whole magic problem there too. Maybe bribe some templars to look away or pretend you're are circle mage or something. Varric even lies to Ser Karras in such a fashion and it works.

Anything would have been better than the whole "nobody noticed anything" stuff they did, imo.

Umm yea...with what money?  The whole of Act 1 is getting up enough money/status that the templars can't touch you/Bethany.  Do you really think if Cullen is that kill crazy whackjob he was at the end of the Broken Circle, he will accept a bribe to keep quiet?
As i pointed out the very beginning of my first post that Mage Hawke is protected by the "almighty plot armor" that eliminates boring consequences like being stuck in the Gallows 24/7 or having Cullen shove a 'sword of mercy' into him.  That would mean: Most boring GAME OVER ever.

My problem with that is the fact that it was established as lore that money/status don't protect you from the Circle. The templars don't care who you are or in what family you where born. If you are a mage you'll go to the circle and lose your title, land and money.

[Maria Caliban]

Johun wrote...

My first playthrough was as a mage because I wanted the mage & templar conflict to feel more personal. I found the conflict to be more engaging as a non-mage, seen through Bethany's experiences. This is because Hawke's choices actually had consequences for Bethany, while they had none for him/herself.

I feel the same way.

I never play a mage. Mages suck. I decided to play a mage in DA II because I assumed in a story set in a Templar controlled city with a conflict between Templars and mages, it would be an interesting experience.

It wasn't. The game hardly acknowledges that you're an apostate. Even after you become the Champion, when you're a well known apostate and have sided with Orsino, other apostates will attack you on sight for being a Templar.

I played a warrior after my first game and it's the stronger experience. Bethany's fear of being captured and that she's eventually taken away to the Circle help personalize the story early on.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[cleosilver]

In the year before Act 1 you're protected by the Smugglers/mercenaries. Act 1 is about getting enough money to cover the bribes yourself before the Templar accountants go over their books and realise that your protection payments aren't up to date.

[sonsonthebia07]

Plaintiff wrote...

A more immediate sense of personal danger would've been great, but I don't think it jsutifies all the extra effort needed to write a whole lot of extra stuff just for Mage-Hawke. Merrill never mentioned being bothered, but Anders did keep saying the templars were hanging around his clinic, when there were never any to be seen. And that underground mage-group he was with sounded pretty cool. A few side missions where you help them out would've been neat. And they could've had a quest where Anders is taken/attacked by the templars and has to be rescued.

There are a couple sidequests in which you can help with the underground railroad from Mistress Selby, who helps apostate mages leave Kirkwall.