184 réponses à ce sujet

[GammaRayJim]

No one says you have to be captured and locked up upon setting foot in Kirkwall. All anyone is saying is that some sense of impending danger for yourself as a mage or your sister Bethany would have added more immersion to the story. Having people, Templars in particular, not even take note of your abilities does not lend itself to the story that is being told here. Even Anders clinic which is being "watched" but never moves in ten years is stretching the credibility of the storyline. Our Wardens were captured, locked up and subsequently rescued in DA:O, there is nothing to say that something of this nature couldn't have happened or shouldn't have happened. To justify that people in game totally ignore the fact that you are a mage however you do it is just plain ridiculous. There are ways this could have been written to take into account all three classes and maintain the integrity of the story. Playing a mage as it is written totally breaks any sense of immersion, for me anyway. Just one persons opinion.

[varcety]

"Why does Hawke never experience the dangers of being an apostate? "

Laziness on Bioware's side.

/thread.

[5ubzer0]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a certain disconnect to the story because even as an illegal mage, Hawke never lives the life of one.

I agree. At times I wondered, if the game really does not want us to side with the mages. For example, why does Hawke meet lots of likeable upstanding templar guys, when practically every mage we encounter is a dangerous lunatic?

In my first playthrough, I missed out on all the rather suble references to mages being raped, tortured, etc. Thus, if my Warden hadn't been a mage, I'd have likely sided with the templars.

I would have loved to kill templars instead of highwaymen at night.
Every second enemy wave could have been the templar wave!

[Camenae]

While I think it would certainly be really interesting to experience if they had implemented what the OP suggests, I can see how it would have been way too much of a PITA to do, especially in the ridiculously short timeframe they had.

Plus I'm used to the selectively blind NPC's from Origins. For example Alistair and Wynne supposedly detest blood magic, yet your character can be a blood mage and they will never ever know (when they do react, it's to things like how you dealt with Connor, and not to your blood magic itself) and you can cast all sorts of blood magic right in front of them, and it will not change their opinion of you one bit.

[GenericPlayer2]

I tried playing as a mage and quit because I did couldn't stand Carver and because I felt the experience should have been more unique than the warrior or rogue. I felt that a mage should not be a playable option in the game, but for one reason or another it was included.

The storyline as a mage pretty much breaks immersion for me, and I end up discarding it. If the added effort of including the mage option was put elsewhere, I would have been much happier.

[Asdara]

I liked being able to play Hawke as a mage and I wouldn't have been happy if that option was just "removed for convenience" any better than I like the present situation of it not really making a difference in life for Hawke.

Problem points for me - where I thought it absolutely should have come up:
1) Arrival in Kirkwall / Battle at the gate-guard
I can see WHY this didn't get my imprisoned immediately (game breaking, obviously), but a warning perhaps? A "keep your head down if you want to live here you apostate, I don't have time for you now but keep making noise and I'll find a free moment to lock you away" threat / warning might have been nice from someone - or a friendlier version of a note from a fellow mage-in-hiding at some point.

Wishful thinking would have had me taken into the Circle, shown what life was like inside, and escaping through the underground railroad within a year - sadly leaving my whiny big-brother to shoulder the family burden and thus have more reason to resent me when I arrive as a fugitive who will rise to fame and power, eclipsing him completely... Could have met Anders then too and had a much deeper connection to the mage-plight all in one episode - this could have been the "mage" placement quest as the Mercenaries seem to be for warrior and the Smugglers for rouge RP types.

2) Dueling the Arishok
If magic is going to save the city from the rule of heathens (as they are seen by the Chantry) then I would think the estimation of people who use magic might go up just the tiniest bit. Sure, I won't get locked away because I did just save everyone's lives, but there could have been an argument about it and Meredith would have lost some ground to the nobles who clearly have a mage to thank for their continued breathing.

Then again, I don't think the Arishok would have ever consented to fight one on one with a demon inspired Bas-Sarabaas type person either. Seriously, they did a good job to over-ride the "but she's a woman" complaint with Fenris explaining the "respected outsider" title, but they failed to address the "she's a demon inspired magic factory!" bit.

3) Any time I am working directly for/with/around an active Templar before being recognized as Champion.
Mostly being discussed here already, lots of "what if" and "why not" related.

[Plaintiff]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

A more immediate sense of personal danger would've been great, but I don't think it jsutifies all the extra effort needed to write a whole lot of extra stuff just for Mage-Hawke. Merrill never mentioned being bothered, but Anders did keep saying the templars were hanging around his clinic, when there were never any to be seen. And that underground mage-group he was with sounded pretty cool. A few side missions where you help them out would've been neat. And they could've had a quest where Anders is taken/attacked by the templars and has to be rescued.

There are a couple sidequests in which you can help with the underground railroad from Mistress Selby, who helps apostate mages leave Kirkwall.

Yeah, I saw and did those, but seeing as my buddy Anders is a member of the group, wouldn't it make more sense for him to come to me directly and invite me to the secret meetings?

[LilyasAvalon]

I always found it odd that we are presented with this allusion about the whole mages vs. templars thing, but the templars don't really care if you're running around right in front of them in robes with a dragon head staff attached to your back, shooting lightning beams and using BLOOD MAGIC on bandits.

[tmp7704]

The way i see it, it's mainly because the game is based on rigid class system.

A mage Hawke isn't allowed to be anything but a mage -- he/she can't learn regular combat skills, can't pick up a sword and stab people in situation(s) where display of magic powers would be suicidal. Whenever combat happens Hawke is forced to demonstrate he/she is indeed a mage, or remain entirely useless.

And since being useless is no fun, the game has to turn blind eye on it.

It's a result of BioWare trying to force square story peg into round game mechanics hole. The idea would be much easier to pull off if instead of the narrow classes characters were allowed to select skills and specializations of all three class branches freely... sort of like the iconic Hawke in the official trailer, for this matter.

[Orion34]

I've always found it odd in both DA2 and Origins that you never experience the dangers of becoming an abomination if you're playing as a mage. Especially since most of the mages you encounter either turn to blood magic or become an abomination.

[Asdara]

tmp7704 wrote...

The way i see it, it's mainly because the game is based on rigid class system.

A mage Hawke isn't allowed to be anything but a mage -- he/she can't learn regular combat skills, can't pick up a sword and stab people in situation(s) where display of magic powers would be suicidal. Whenever combat happens Hawke is forced to demonstrate he/she is indeed a mage, or remain entirely useless.

And since being useless is no fun, the game has to turn blind eye on it.

It's a result of BioWare trying to force square story peg into round game mechanics hole. The idea would be much easier to pull off if instead of the narrow classes characters were allowed to select skills and specializations of all three class branches freely... sort of like the iconic Hawke in the official trailer, for this matter.

Right - even like the Arcane Warrior option in DAO where you could do the armor and a sword/dagger set thing and at least BLEND your magic into a less obvious "FIREBALL!!!" kind of battle dynamic.

[Plaintiff]

Orion34 wrote...

I've always found it odd in both DA2 and Origins that you never experience the dangers of becoming an abomination if you're playing as a mage. Especially since most of the mages you encounter either turn to blood magic or become an abomination.

Probably because turning into an abomination would severely hamper your character's ability to do just about anything except kill indiscriminately. When you're possessed a demon basically takes complete control of you. The only way it could work plot-wise is if it was a benevolent spirit (as is the case with Wynne and Anders). 

And while you do encounter a lot of abominations, it's made very clear that they are the exception, not the norm. The Ferelden Circle is overrun with them because Uldred has been forcibly transforming people into abominations, and while the mages you fight in 2 are blood mages or abominations, they, like Uldred's followers, are members of small splinter groups that are actively rebelling against the Circle. They aren't an accurate representation of mages as a whole.

[Ryzaki]

Act 1 - Hawke's just out of the smuggler/mercenary protection. Templars turn a blind eye because Hawke help saved their recruits from actual crazy mages. (The lesser evil.) Near the end of Act 1 Hawke does the Vicount a personal favor (If Beth is taken to the circle Cullen even say sthe Vicount personally requested you not be punished for housing an apostate. I'm guessing for a mage Hawke the Vicount would've done the same thing because you saved his son and you haven't been in the city (probably when the templar raid finally occurs). So by the time Hawke gets back Hawke has enough influence to give everyone pause (not to mention 99% of the templars you know including the second highest Templar owe you anyway). 

As long as Meredith didn't know you were a mage I can see it being glossed over. Last thing Cullen wants Meredith to know is he had help from an apostate. She'd probaby assume it was all Hawke's plot and ra only knows what she would've done to poor Kearen. (spelling is off). 

Act 2 - Hawke's the only one who can deal with Qunari presonally. So again the Vicount is protecting you. As is Hawke's influence and status. Very few templars probably know Hawke's a mage and all of them that do know was helped by Hawke. (And none of them seem overzealous). [Cullen probably doesn't turn on Hawke because that would be ripping off his nose to spite his face]. 

Act 3 - No one in their right mind is gonna try to lock Hawke up. 

Though really you should've been forced to not use magic in act 1 atleast. Or Cullen should've said something. It isa bit jarring. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[TobiTobsen]

Asdara wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The way i see it, it's mainly because the game is based on rigid class system.

A mage Hawke isn't allowed to be anything but a mage -- he/she can't learn regular combat skills, can't pick up a sword and stab people in situation(s) where display of magic powers would be suicidal. Whenever combat happens Hawke is forced to demonstrate he/she is indeed a mage, or remain entirely useless.

And since being useless is no fun, the game has to turn blind eye on it.

It's a result of BioWare trying to force square story peg into round game mechanics hole. The idea would be much easier to pull off if instead of the narrow classes characters were allowed to select skills and specializations of all three class branches freely... sort of like the iconic Hawke in the official trailer, for this matter.

Right - even like the Arcane Warrior option in DAO where you could do the armor and a sword/dagger set thing and at least BLEND your magic into a less obvious "FIREBALL!!!" kind of battle dynamic.

But the Arcane Warrior was an old and forgotten technic, wasn't it? I never understood why the cultist and the guys in the proving arena had one with them. I thought nobody besides the mage in the cristall remembered this special way of fighting.

[tmp7704]

TobiTobsen wrote...

But the Arcane Warrior was an old and forgotten technic, wasn't it? I never understood why the cultist and the guys in the proving arena had one with them. I thought nobody besides the mage in the cristall remembered this special way of fighting.

The entity in the crystal was such Arcane Warrior of old who could teach you, but that doesn't mean he/she was the only remaining source of such knowledge in the entire big world. Other people could've stumbled upon books about it, or there's some small communities/secret orders passing the knowledge from generation to generation, etc.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Miashi]

Casting a spell in Athalaka in broad daylight in Baldur's gate II got you a last warning, then death if you persisted. Now that was epic.

[ISnowdropI]

Couldn't agree with you more, I wished Hawke in general could've faced more danger and personal problems instead of him just going around sorting out political problems. I know the qunari and the whole clash between mage and templar is important in the long-run but none of the events seemed to INVOLVE Hawke. Like Hawke's mum getting kidnapped and killed. That was exciting and suspenseful because it was happening to your character. In fact, that must've been one of the only times in the game that I sat up and paid proper attention to, which is a bit bad.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Ryzaki wrote...

Act 1 - Hawke's just out of the smuggler/mercenary protection. Templars turn a blind eye because Hawke help saved their recruits from actual crazy mages. (The lesser evil.) Near the end of Act 1 Hawke does the Vicount a personal favor (If Beth is taken to the circle Cullen even say sthe Vicount personally requested you not be punished for housing an apostate. I'm guessing for a mage Hawke the Vicount would've done the same thing because you saved his son and you haven't been in the city (probably when the templar raid finally occurs). So by the time Hawke gets back Hawke has enough influence to give everyone pause (not to mention 99% of the templars you know including the second highest Templar owe you anyway). 

As long as Meredith didn't know you were a mage I can see it being glossed over. Last thing Cullen wants Meredith to know is he had help from an apostate. She'd probaby assume it was all Hawke's plot and ra only knows what she would've done to poor Kearen. (spelling is off). 

Act 2 - Hawke's the only one who can deal with Qunari presonally. So again the Vicount is protecting you. As is Hawke's influence and status. Very few templars probably know Hawke's a mage and all of them that do know was helped by Hawke. (And none of them seem overzealous). [Cullen probably doesn't turn on Hawke because that would be ripping off his nose to spite his face]. 

Act 3 - No one in their right mind is gonna try to lock Hawke up. 

Though really you should've been forced to not use magic in act 1 atleast. Or Cullen should've said something. It isa bit jarring. 

What you're failing to grasp is that both games make it ABUNDANTLY clear through other NPCs that if you are a mage, the Chantry demands you go to the Circle, no matter what status you have.  Being the King's son or daughter won't protect you.  Money and fame won't protect you.  The Templar could be dying to darkspawn, you save their life, and yet, APOSTATE ! GO TO THE CIRCLE OR DIE! is said right after. For every mage. Except...you.

Also, please address my point about blood magic being an option for the PC. I grant, this was a glaring problem in Origins as well, that sadly carried over here for Hawke (but was dealt with for companions, eliminating the Wynne as Blood Mage immersion breaker in Origins).

[Kimberly Shaw]

Oh, and being a Grey Warden will protect you from the Cirlce. That is the only thing that will. Being the Viscount's go to boy in Act 2 won't help, nor will anything in Act 1 (flying under the radar != casting spells in broad daylight in the middle of Kirkwall).

On Act 3, I never understood why Meredith doesn't call you an Apostate and lock you up--yes I know she addresses it but it doesn't fit; nor why she walks away from Anders after watching him blow up the Chantry instead of going psycho murder on him right then and there. Just poorly poorly done.

[Ryzaki]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...
What you're failing to grasp is that both games make it ABUNDANTLY clear through other NPCs that if you are a mage, the Chantry demands you go to the Circle, no matter what status you have.  Being the King's son or daughter won't protect you.  Money and fame won't protect you.  The Templar could be dying to darkspawn, you save their life, and yet, APOSTATE ! GO TO THE CIRCLE OR DIE! is said right after. For every mage. Except...you.

Also, please address my point about blood magic being an option for the PC. I grant, this was a glaring problem in Origins as well, that sadly carried over here for Hawke (but was dealt with for companions, eliminating the Wynne as Blood Mage immersion breaker in Origins).

Really? So why is the whole point of act 1 trying to get enough status to hide behind to protect Beth/Hawke? Why does COIN protect you in the beginning of the game. 

Both games are not set in the same place. Both games are not set in the same enviornment with the same rules and regulations. 

Also "Hey Morrigan! Why aren't you in the circle?"

Another open apostate running around and no one says anything.

And yes Isolde's status allowed her to keep Conner a secret as long as she did. 

Coin may not matter in Fereldan but Kirkwall has enough corruption for people to turn a blind eye. Hell it's corrupt enough for you to sneak in the city using money. 

Also Wesley backs off right after Aveline calls him on it. And no it's not for every mage otherwise Merrill, Anders and Beth would've been locked up right away. They're throwing their magic around just like Hawke. 

And as you said bloodmage is ignored just like picking up the Templar specialization is ignored. It was ignored in Origins too. Frankly I wish they had left that spec out but they didn't want people to cry about losing choices so they decided to ignore it. It's ignored the same way all of the specializations are ignored. WTF is Hawke a spirit healer? Who knows! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:16 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

And no it's not for every mage otherwise Merrill, Anders and Beth would've been locked up right away. 

You can make big deal out of Merrill and Anders being mages and how this puts them in danger of being imprisoned should the templars ever get a wind of it, in the dialogue. Of course, it matters squat when it comes to actual game just like it matters squat for Hawke.

[Asdara]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Act 1 - Hawke's just out of the smuggler/mercenary protection. Templars turn a blind eye because Hawke help saved their recruits from actual crazy mages. (The lesser evil.) Near the end of Act 1 Hawke does the Vicount a personal favor (If Beth is taken to the circle Cullen even say sthe Vicount personally requested you not be punished for housing an apostate. I'm guessing for a mage Hawke the Vicount would've done the same thing because you saved his son and you haven't been in the city (probably when the templar raid finally occurs). So by the time Hawke gets back Hawke has enough influence to give everyone pause (not to mention 99% of the templars you know including the second highest Templar owe you anyway). 

As long as Meredith didn't know you were a mage I can see it being glossed over. Last thing Cullen wants Meredith to know is he had help from an apostate. She'd probaby assume it was all Hawke's plot and ra only knows what she would've done to poor Kearen. (spelling is off). 

Act 2 - Hawke's the only one who can deal with Qunari presonally. So again the Vicount is protecting you. As is Hawke's influence and status. Very few templars probably know Hawke's a mage and all of them that do know was helped by Hawke. (And none of them seem overzealous). [Cullen probably doesn't turn on Hawke because that would be ripping off his nose to spite his face]. 

Act 3 - No one in their right mind is gonna try to lock Hawke up. 

Though really you should've been forced to not use magic in act 1 atleast. Or Cullen should've said something. It isa bit jarring. 

What you're failing to grasp is that both games make it ABUNDANTLY clear through other NPCs that if you are a mage, the Chantry demands you go to the Circle, no matter what status you have.  Being the King's son or daughter won't protect you.  Money and fame won't protect you.  The Templar could be dying to darkspawn, you save their life, and yet, APOSTATE ! GO TO THE CIRCLE OR DIE! is said right after. For every mage. Except...you.

Also, please address my point about blood magic being an option for the PC. I grant, this was a glaring problem in Origins as well, that sadly carried over here for Hawke (but was dealt with for companions, eliminating the Wynne as Blood Mage immersion breaker in Origins).

See, I thought Blood Magic worked as an option in Origins (though I never use it, out of character for my people) simply because the Blight being *in progress* causes all Grey Warden values to override any Chantry notions learned in the Circle as an apprentice - and the fact that Wardens are not under Templar or Chantry oversight and therefore cannot be sanctioned.  Several NPCs indicate that "whatever it takes" is the only code to which Wardens must adhere during times of Blight.

Blood Magic in DA2... less so.  I mean, it's always an option for any mage, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that you'd choose to become a blood mage AND be a prominent figure in a city that is well known for strict crackdown on all illegal mages and magic and has some zealots who are foaming at the mouth insane with authority.  Of course, my fiance was all "Woot, I'm going to be a blood mage!" anyway... so I mean, some people are excited about it.  

Merrill... isn't exactly a "blood mage" blood mage... I mean, she uses blood - but her tree is all that Keeper stuff which, apparently, just happens to be fueled by blood?  Because elves can't get their hands on quality lyrium suppliers?  I guess?  Anders makes a comment about it on a quest once "What is it with elves and blood magic?!" ... but it might just be a cultural difference rather than demonic blood rituals.  Not sure - it isn't explained well enough in either DAO or DA2 what the Dalish magical policies are.

And yes, you're right - the Circle claims all mages.  Mages are not permitted to hold title - which is why the whole Redcliff thing happens, remember (which fails if you play Awakenings as a Mage Warden, and again with the Hawke family estate if Hawke is a mage).  Mages are not permitted to exist outside the oversight of the Chantry under any circumstances - although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no it's not for every mage otherwise Merrill, Anders and Beth would've been locked up right away. 

You can make big deal out of Merrill and Anders being mages and how this puts them in danger of being imprisoned should the templars ever get a wind of it, in the dialogue. Of course, it matters squat when it comes to actual game just like it matters squat for Hawke.

Indeed. The only people it ever matters for are NPCs. 

The same way Morrigan threw around magic without being a Grey Warden and no one gave a crap. 

[IanPolaris]

5ubzer0 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a certain disconnect to the story because even as an illegal mage, Hawke never lives the life of one.

I agree. At times I wondered, if the game really does not want us to side with the mages. For example, why does Hawke meet lots of likeable upstanding templar guys, when practically every mage we encounter is a dangerous lunatic?

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!  I think that this is a very important element to that.  If mage-hawke were forced to suffer what NPC mages go through then there would be not even the illuion of moral ambiguity.  No one would support the templar position.  As it is, IMHO DG and others are extremely upset that so few do support the Templars and that their "morally ambigious" situation really isn't.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...
What you're failing to grasp is that both games make it ABUNDANTLY clear through other NPCs that if you are a mage, the Chantry demands you go to the Circle, no matter what status you have.  Being the King's son or daughter won't protect you.  Money and fame won't protect you.  The Templar could be dying to darkspawn, you save their life, and yet, APOSTATE ! GO TO THE CIRCLE OR DIE! is said right after. For every mage. Except...you.

Also, please address my point about blood magic being an option for the PC. I grant, this was a glaring problem in Origins as well, that sadly carried over here for Hawke (but was dealt with for companions, eliminating the Wynne as Blood Mage immersion breaker in Origins).

Really? So why is the whole point of act 1 trying to get enough status to hide behind to protect Beth/Hawke? Why does COIN protect you in the beginning of the game. 

Both games are not set in the same place. Both games are not set in the same enviornment with the same rules and regulations. 

And yes Isolde's status allowed her to keep Conner a secret as long as she did. 

Coin may not matter in Fereldan but Kirkwall has enough corruption for people to turn a blind eye. Hell it's corrupt enough for you to sneak in the city using money. 

Also Wesley backs off right after Aveline calls him on it. And no it's not for every mage otherwise Merrill, Anders and Beth would've been locked up right away. They're throwing their magic around just like Hawke. 

And as you said bloodmage is ignored just like picking up the Templar specialization is ignored. It was ignored in Origins too. Frankly I wish they had left that spec out but they didn't want people to cry about losing choices so they decided to ignore it. It's ignored the same way all of the specializations are ignored. WTF is Hawke a spirit healer? Who knows! 

Simple Answer: You're the main character and they are your companions. You don't play with the normal rules. And that's what we complain about. It just feels wrong.