184 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

The same way Morrigan threw around magic without being a Grey Warden and no one gave a crap. 

You mean, like Wynne goes ballistic over you listening to an apostate and tries to kill both her and your character if you don't do some really sweet talking?

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote...
Simple Answer: You're the main character and they are your companions. You don't play with the normal rules. And that's what we complain about. It just feels wrong.

But that's exactly how it happened in Origins. 

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The same way Morrigan threw around magic without being a Grey Warden and no one gave a crap. 

You mean, like Wynne goes ballistic over you listening to an apostate and tries to kill both her and your character if you don't do some really sweet talking?

...You realize Morrigan was suggesting to slaughter the circle mages for them being "weak" right? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Asdara wrote...

And yes, you're right - the Circle claims all mages.  Mages are not permitted to hold title - which is why the whole Redcliff thing happens, remember (which fails if you play Awakenings as a Mage Warden, and again with the Hawke family estate if Hawke is a mage).  Mages are not permitted to exist outside the oversight of the Chantry under any circumstances - although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

Unless you are a Grey Warden which is why the Hero of Fereldan Malificar works in the world.  Grey Waden mages are the only mages that are explicitly outside the control and oversight of the Chantry and Templars (although a few Templars have to be reminded of that in very brutal terms from time to time), and are thus permitted to use blood-magic.  In return the Grey Wardens are expected to police their own....and Anders notwithstanding, they do.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Asdara wrote...

And yes, you're right - the Circle claims all mages.  Mages are not permitted to hold title - which is why the whole Redcliff thing happens, remember (which fails if you play Awakenings as a Mage Warden, and again with the Hawke family estate if Hawke is a mage).  Mages are not permitted to exist outside the oversight of the Chantry under any circumstances - although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

*looks at her Mage Chancellors*

....

Huh? 

Oh you mean BW didn't care about that in origins either right? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:20 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

But that's exactly how it happened in Origins. 

Wardens are allowed to be mages. A mage going around with a Warden will be presumed to be one as well or at least to be Warden's responsibility.

You don't exactly run around with a Warden in DA2 to provide excuse for your magic, not until (optionally) at the very end, at least.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

...You realize Morrigan was suggesting to slaughter the circle mages for them being "weak" right? 

Sure, but Wynne was specifically taking offense at her being apostate mage, wasn't she?

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Simple Answer: You're the main character and they are your companions. You don't play with the normal rules. And that's what we complain about. It just feels wrong.

But that's exactly how it happened in Origins. 

You are a grey warden in Origins. You don't fall under the rule of the templars. Nobody can prove that Morrigan is no warden and Wynne is a circle mage.

In Dragon Age 2 we have the apostate Hawke or his apostate sister, an elven blood mage and a known ex warden and circle mage on the run Anders.

How exactly is that the same situation?

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
Wardens are allowed to be mages. A mage going around with a Warden will be presumed to be one as well or at least to be Warden's responsibility.

You don't exactly run around with a Warden in DA2 to provide excuse for your magic, not until (optionally) at the very end, at least.

Actually no no they aren't. Not once are you questioned about Morrigan running around with you. Not once are you questioned about Morrigan being an open apostate. 

You don't run around with a Warden in DA2 no. But there's plenty of excuses for your magic being ignored. Some may not find them particularly convincing but that said I wasn't overly convinced of everyone completely ignoring Morrigan in my playthroughs either. 

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...You realize Morrigan was suggesting to slaughter the circle mages for them being "weak" right? 

Sure, but Wynne was specifically taking offense at her being apostate mage, wasn't she?

I think it's more a case of "So you think we're worthless and it's okay to kill us? Well screw you, you're with an apostate!"

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

*looks at her Mage Chancellors*

....

Huh? 

Oh you mean BW didn't care about that in origins either right? 

Asdara wrote...

although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...You realize Morrigan was suggesting to slaughter the circle mages for them being "weak" right? 

Sure, but Wynne was specifically taking offense at her being apostate mage, wasn't she?

An apostate mage who suggested to slaughter them. You can't leave an important part of the convo out and say she only took offense to one part of it. 

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*looks at her Mage Chancellors*

....

Huh? 

Oh you mean BW didn't care about that in origins either right? 

Asdara wrote...

although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please. 

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually no no they aren't.

Turning Anders a Grey Warden in Origins forces the templars to at least officially back off and stop pursuing him. So yes, they are.
 

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote..
You are a grey warden in Origins. You don't fall under the rule of the templars. Nobody can prove that Morrigan is no warden and Wynne is a circle mage.

In Dragon Age 2 we have the apostate Hawke or his apostate sister, an elven blood mage and a known ex warden and circle mage on the run Anders.

How exactly is that the same situation?

...Actually there is a way to prove Morrigan isn't a Warden. Warden's are tainted. It's suggested some can sense this. (particularly other Wardens).  

Not to mention no one asks if she's a Warden for you to prove or disprove it. 

In DA2 we have the apostate Hawke and his sister doing several favors for Templars.

Or are you gonna completely ignore that? 

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please. 

Wynne becomes royal advisor at the end of DAO. And your mage chancellor would be obviously another one.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually no no they aren't.

Turning Anders a Grey Warden in Origins forces the templars to at least officially back off and stop pursuing him. So yes, they are.
 

What is that to? Quote the whole post. 

 A mage going around with a Warden will be presumed to be one as well or at least to be Warden's responsibility.

Is what that no no they aren't is to. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:29 .

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please. 

Wynne becomes royal advisor at the end of DAO. And your mage chancellor would be obviously another one.

Codex entry. 

Because Wynne's dead in 99% of my games (and would be a result of party segregation being different from the rest of the game same as Mage Chancellor). 

And again Alistair has no problem breaking laws with his freeing of the circle thing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:28 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

What is that to? 

I took your "no they aren't" as response to my statement Grey Wardens are allowed to be mages.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What is that to? 

I took your "no they aren't" as response to my statement Grey Wardens are allowed to be mages.

no that no they aren't is to the whole "Morrigan is presumed to be a GW because she's with one." 

Especially not considering the whole game the only one who is called Grey Warden is the PC. (And in certain rare occassions Alistair). 

And no one even knows you're a GW to start with until you say so (well those that aren't Loghain's mooks and the only ones they know are you and Alistair). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Wardens are allowed to be mages. A mage going around with a Warden will be presumed to be one as well or at least to be Warden's responsibility.

You don't exactly run around with a Warden in DA2 to provide excuse for your magic, not until (optionally) at the very end, at least.

Actually no no they aren't. Not once are you questioned about Morrigan running around with you. Not once are you questioned about Morrigan being an open apostate. 

You don't run around with a Warden in DA2 no. But there's plenty of excuses for your magic being ignored. Some may not find them particularly convincing but that said I wasn't overly convinced of everyone completely ignoring Morrigan in my playthroughs either. 

Speak to the only unnamed templar in the Lothering Chantry. The first thing he will do is voice his suspicion about Morrigan.

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please.

Wynne becomes royal advisor at the end of DAO. And your mage chancellor would be obviously another one.

David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it.
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[Asdara]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*looks at her Mage Chancellors*

....

Huh? 

Oh you mean BW didn't care about that in origins either right? 

Asdara wrote...

although some do go serve royal courts, perform research, are allowed to travel, ect. from evidence we've seen through both games - so there must be some basis of exception that pertains to the rare individual, not a systemic loophole anyone can exploit (like royalty).

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please. 

Apologies, but I don't reference by Codex - however the examples that spring to mind all happen in practice anyway:

Wilhelm from Stone Prisoner DLC - reading anything in his basement indicates that he travelled with an army, served a noble court as magic advisor or something, retired to his country home as a reward for service, and experimented on golem / spirits.  He maintained contact with the Circle (there's a letter around from someone that indicates this), but was not directly under Circle / Templar supervision - I assume legally, given the evidence and the general awareness authority seemed to have of him.

Wynne's friend from Awakenings - the one she asks you to find out picking herbs in the forest without Templar supervision - who is obviously a member in good standing of the Circle and wanted to attend a meeting of some prestige.  

Wynne's own travel - both with the Warden and after to seek out information about Shale's condition, and her travel to Amaranthine and to the conference - all without the supervision of a Templar to be seen or heard of.

Just off the top of my head - there may be more I suppose, but it seems clear some exceptions do happen - usually with people who have shown compliance with Circle/Chantry approved guidelines over long spans of time, it seems.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Codex entry. 

Because Wynne's dead in 99% of my games (and would be a result of party segregation being different from the rest of the game same as Mage Chancellor). 

And again Alistair has no problem breaking laws with his freeing of the circle thing. 

Wynne becomes court advisor in my game with Anora as the ruler. So there's no "Alistair is rule breaker" loophole.

Don't know why you need a Codex entry and can't take what the game explicitly shows you as a proof.

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote...
Speak to the only unnamed templar in the Lothering Chantry. The first thing he will do is voice his suspicion about Morrigan.

And does absolutely nothing about it? That's not exactly compelling evidence in favor of the "all apostates are immediately taken to the circle" theory. 

Doesn't help that the two places are in vastly different circumstances. 

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please.

David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it. 
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

Great now I have to import my Magi Chancellor early. As for the free circle isn't it said he did it in DA2? I could've sworn he did but the Chantry was pissed. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:35 .

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
Wynne becomes court advisor in my game with Anora as the ruler. So there's no "Alistair is rule breaker" loophole.

Don't know why you need a Codex entry and can't take what the game explicitly shows you as a proof.

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:35 .

[IanPolaris]

TobiTobsen wrote...

David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it.
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

That's not entirely accurate if you remember the scene with Alister and Meridith (and what he tells a pro-mage Hawke afterwards).  It's a stalemate.  Fereldan doesn't have the military power to take over the circle by force nor risk the wrath of the chantry in so doing (esp not with Orlais threatening) and King Alister says so.  However, King Alister on his own authority has essentially freed all mages and nationized magic outside of the actual circle and the Chantry apparenly wasn't able to do much about that either (inclding an official royal politicy of harboring non-Fereldan apostates).  Fereldan has become a mage-haven and Meridith (and apparently the Chantry) is steamed...yet 7 years later King Alister is still king...which means he got away with it.

I think that fact (Fereldan == Mage Haven) is going to be very important in the upcoming Templar-Mage Civil War.

-Plaris