184 réponses à ce sujet

[KJandrew]

Morrigan is never questioned because she is travelling with known grey wardens and is assumed to be either a grey warden or a recruit

[Ryzaki]

Asdara wrote...
Apologies, but I don't reference by Codex - however the examples that spring to mind all happen in practice anyway:

Wilhelm from Stone Prisoner DLC - reading anything in his basement indicates that he travelled with an army, served a noble court as magic advisor or something, retired to his country home as a reward for service, and experimented on golem / spirits.  He maintained contact with the Circle (there's a letter around from someone that indicates this), but was not directly under Circle / Templar supervision - I assume legally, given the evidence and the general awareness authority seemed to have of him. 

Wynne's friend from Awakenings - the one she asks you to find out picking herbs in the forest without Templar supervision - who is obviously a member in good standing of the Circle and wanted to attend a meeting of some prestige.  

Wynne's own travel - both with the Warden and after to seek out information about Shale's condition, and her travel to Amaranthine and to the conference - all without the supervision of a Templar to be seen or heard of.

Just off the top of my head - there may be more I suppose, but it seems clear some exceptions do happen - usually with people who have shown compliance with Circle/Chantry approved guidelines over long spans of time, it seems.

Ah I understand those. I was referring more to a Chancellor kind of person with a lot of political power outside the Circle.  Though Wilhelm is an interesting case. I wonder how often mages were allowed to retire for service. 

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it.
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

Great now I have to import my Magi Chancellor early. As for the free circle isn't it said he did it in DA2? I could've sworn he did but the Chantry was pissed.

I think David Gaider said that the Chantry blocked it. I don't know if it's mentioned ingame, my mage warden never asked for it.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 04:40 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Except when they aren't. Here's what Wynne says in the epilogue:

"Instead, I've decided to accept a position here at court. There has not been a mage advising the throne for a very long time."

means there was mages before Wynne advising the court in the past. And they weren't PC's party.

[Asdara]

IanPolaris wrote...


I think that fact (Fereldan == Mage Haven) is going to be very important in the upcoming Templar-Mage Civil War.

-Plaris

Oh I hope not... I neutralized the Ferelden Circle in my canon mage-Warden story and not one of my Wardens was really keen to see the Circle self-regulate.  I betcha they take my feelings and toss them for Alistair's what with "Oh my sort-of nephew Connor is a mage and he's just dandy!" or something equally horrific.  

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Except when they aren't. Here's what Wynne says in the epilogue:

"Instead, I've decided to accept a position here at court. There has not been a mage advising the throne for a very long time."

means there was mages before Wynne advising the court in the past. And they weren't PC's party.

In a very long time meaning how long exactly? Who was it? Why was it done? (Importantly where was it and what did the Chantry say/do about it). 

Again all important things I need to know more than "there hasn't been a mage advising the throne for a very long time." 

And this is remotely off road from the original discussion.

You want the real reason Hawke never experiences the dangers of being an apostate? Because it would lead to a bunch of whining because you'd be killed/locked up within the first hour of the game. Or you'd be on a strict ruleset where you can't use magic in front of people you plan to let live. That's all. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Not really... in DAO you can explain it with the Wardens. You just don't have any excuse in DA2, besides the fact that the Kirkwall templar are all incompetent fools.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

In a very long time meaning how long exactly? Who was it? Why was it done? (Importantly where was it and what did the Chantry say/do about it).

All red herrings. At the end of the day there were mages serving as court advisors.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]TobiTobsen wrote...

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

What evidence have we seen about these rare exceptions? Codex entry please.
[/quote]
David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it. 
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.[/quote]

Great now I have to import my Magi Chancellor early. As for the free circle isn't it said he did it in DA2? I could've sworn he did but the Chantry was pissed. 
[/quote]

I think David Gaider said that the Chantry blocked it. I don't know if it's mentioned ingame, my mage warden never asked for it.[/quote]

It is mentioned in the game, somewhat prominately in a couple of places (one of the few genuine choices that does affect the flavor of the game).  Essentially as I just said above, King Alister and the Chantry/Meridith are in a Mexican Standoff.  Fereldan post-blight doesn't (yet) have the power to take over the circle by force and withstand an angry Chantry/Orlais if they did (and he says so), however, he does have the power (and uses is) to free all mages outside the physical circle and essentially strip the chantry/templars of their authoity over mages inside of Fereldan elsewhere and he has....even to the point of openly harboring apostates.  It's my distict impression that the king is nationalizing mages in order to defend his kingdom.

-Polaris

[Asdara]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Except when they aren't. Here's what Wynne says in the epilogue:

"Instead, I've decided to accept a position here at court. There has not been a mage advising the throne for a very long time."

means there was mages before Wynne advising the court in the past. And they weren't PC's party.

In a very long time meaning how long exactly? Who was it? Why was it done? (Importantly where was it and what did the Chantry say/do about it). 

Again all important things I need to know more than "there hasn't been a mage advising the throne for a very long time." 

Well Ferelden was under Orlais for what, 100 years, just 1 kingship before the time period we're brought in with a Blight to.

My guess would be that Marric (sp?) didn't take a mage advisor, and there wasn't a king/queen for 100 years before that so: a long time.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In a very long time meaning how long exactly? Who was it? Why was it done? (Importantly where was it and what did the Chantry say/do about it).

All red herrings. At the end of the day there were mages serving as court advisors.

Which mages? Why? When? 

For all the hell we know it could've been during the Imperium rule! 

[Abispa]

Not just Hawke, but all the mages in your company. It would be different if mages at least dressed in "normal" clothes and did not walk around with staffs, but all the runaway mages were able to walk around with their distinctive gear and not get noticed. Apparently only the Templars on the street seemed to recognize that a person with the long robes and staffs were mages. Maybe they should have had "normal" people wear mage-style dress and staffs in a few scenes to make that situation plausible.

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Not really... in DAO you can explain it with the Wardens. You just don't have any excuse in DA2, besides the fact that the Kirkwall templar are all incompetent fools.

And the fact that the Kirkwall templars may or may not owe you their lives. (Frankly I don't know why they didn't just record a extra line for Cullen for a mage Hawke. One line that says "I'll be watching you apostate." that's all). He warns you about Bethany "having questions asked about her" but not you. 

Asdara wrote...
Well Ferelden was under Orlais for what, 100 years, just 1 kingship before the time period we're brought in with a Blight to.

My guess would be that Marric (sp?) didn't take a mage advisor, and there wasn't a king/queen for 100 years before that so: a long time.

True. I just want a codex on it. Because that with the mages can't hold titles thing just bugs me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it.
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

That's not entirely accurate if you remember the scene with Alister and Meridith (and what he tells a pro-mage Hawke afterwards).  It's a stalemate.  Fereldan doesn't have the military power to take over the circle by force nor risk the wrath of the chantry in so doing (esp not with Orlais threatening) and King Alister says so.  However, King Alister on his own authority has essentially freed all mages and nationized magic outside of the actual circle and the Chantry apparenly wasn't able to do much about that either (inclding an official royal politicy of harboring non-Fereldan apostates).  Fereldan has become a mage-haven and Meridith (and apparently the Chantry) is steamed...yet 7 years later King Alister is still king...which means he got away with it.

I think that fact (Fereldan == Mage Haven) is going to be very important in the upcoming Templar-Mage Civil War.

-Plaris

Uhm... I understood Alistair like that: He can't interfere with chantry buisness but they can't tell him how to handle apostates. So he has no power to free the circle, but can "hide" the apostates and that's what Meredith is angry about. That would mean that even the Ferelden circle is still under templar control.

Maybe I got it wrong. English isn't my first language but the VA are just so much better than the german VAs.

[IanPolaris]

Asdara wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


I think that fact (Fereldan == Mage Haven) is going to be very important in the upcoming Templar-Mage Civil War.

-Plaris

Oh I hope not... I neutralized the Ferelden Circle in my canon mage-Warden story and not one of my Wardens was really keen to see the Circle self-regulate.  I betcha they take my feelings and toss them for Alistair's what with "Oh my sort-of nephew Connor is a mage and he's just dandy!" or something equally horrific.  

Actually Fereldan being a Mage-Haven is a fact.  Both Queen Anora and King Alister (even without freeing the circle) both are openly accepting and harboring apostates and appear to be nationalizing magic outside the actual circle (and it makes sense for Anora as well as Alistair....Anora's father, Gen Loghain was never a fan of the Chantry since the Chantry was oh so supportive of the plight of the abused Fereldan peasentry......)

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

For all the hell we know it could've been during the Imperium rule! 

There was no united Ferelden and no Ferelden throne to speak of in that time, so no.

[Asdara]

Abispa wrote...

Not just Hawke, but all the mages in your company. It would be different if mages at least dressed in "normal" clothes and did not walk around with staffs, but all the runaway mages were able to walk around with their distinctive gear and not get noticed. Apparently only the Templars on the street seemed to recognize that a person with the long robes and staffs were mages. Maybe they should have had "normal" people wear mage-style dress and staffs in a few scenes to make that situation plausible.

The Viscount does wear "robes" and has a staff - but he's obviously not a mage.  I think they tried to tone down the robes and staff dead give away points in this game more than they did in DAO for sure... but it still is jarring that we're casting magic up and down the streets, practically every night, for how many years living in the same place?  Yeah... wardrobe pales in comparison to hard evidence any local could give against us or our companions.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

For all the hell we know it could've been during the Imperium rule! 

There was no united Ferelden and no Ferelden throne to speak of in that time, so no.

Wynne said nothing about Fereldan in that statement. 

[TobiTobsen]

Ryzaki wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Not really... in DAO you can explain it with the Wardens. You just don't have any excuse in DA2, besides the fact that the Kirkwall templar are all incompetent fools.

And the fact that the Kirkwall templars may or may not owe you their lives. 

Wesley owes you his live too and still he is going all "THE ORDER DICTATES!" on you and just agrees to let the matter rest till you are away from the darkspawn.

[Lisa_H]

I agree there are some bad moments that I believe could have been handled better. The fighting just when Hawke and family arrive in Kirkwall, and the fight when they meet Cullen are the scenes I think about most. Of course this is not only if you play a mage. You can bring Bethany with you in both these scenes and nobody seems to notice that she casts fireballs. Otherwise beside from these scenes and the few fights that take place in the city in daylight (Most fights however takes place in the night or indoors, and most people that could report Hawke/Bethany/Anders/Merrill end up dead) I think it work quite good. First year you have have smugglars/mercenaries to protect you, and then during the first act it is mentioned several times they are under templar scrutiny, and that is one main reason they struggle so hard to set up a respectable facade.
And there are quite a lot of people who notice Hakw is a mage like Fenris and Grace. Click on Cullen enough times in the Gallows and he mentions that there are disturbing rumors about Hawke, and that he hopes they are not true. He says something similar about Bethany, if you play as a non-mage. And if you bring Carver along he complains almost evertime you try to talk with a templar. Meredith notices that Hawke is a mage the first time they meet and had it not been for Hawke being named Champion she probably would have dragged Hawke to the Gallows the moment after the battle was over. WhenHakwe is the champion she actually threaten to lock her up if she don't work with her.
Had Cullen been knocked out by the possesed templar right before the battle, and the city guard had something about how he wouldn't turn Hakwe in because she helped him I would have had no problems at all, because I still think there are quite many references to Hawke being a mage.

[IanPolaris]

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

David Gaider said all the epilogues are all rumors and hearsay. Just because Allistair promised you he would make you chancellor doesn't mean he was allowed to do it.
Remember the magi boon at the end of DAO? The chantry said no, Alistair got owned. No free circle for Ferelden.

That's not entirely accurate if you remember the scene with Alister and Meridith (and what he tells a pro-mage Hawke afterwards).  It's a stalemate.  Fereldan doesn't have the military power to take over the circle by force nor risk the wrath of the chantry in so doing (esp not with Orlais threatening) and King Alister says so.  However, King Alister on his own authority has essentially freed all mages and nationized magic outside of the actual circle and the Chantry apparenly wasn't able to do much about that either (inclding an official royal politicy of harboring non-Fereldan apostates).  Fereldan has become a mage-haven and Meridith (and apparently the Chantry) is steamed...yet 7 years later King Alister is still king...which means he got away with it.

I think that fact (Fereldan == Mage Haven) is going to be very important in the upcoming Templar-Mage Civil War.

-Plaris

Uhm... I understood Alistair like that: He can't interfere with chantry buisness but they can't tell him how to handle apostates. So he has no power to free the circle, but can "hide" the apostates and that's what Meredith is angry about. That would mean that even the Ferelden circle is still under templar control.

Maybe I got it wrong. English isn't my first language but the VA are just so much better than the german VAs.

Harboring Apostates is interfering with Chantry business.  Just ask Meridith or even the new improved magic-hating Lelianna.  I actually think we are in basic agreement.  King Alistair (or Queen Anora) doesn't have the ability/power to actually kick the Templars out of Fereldan completely (pre-mage war) and make it stick.  However, he CAN strip chantry oversight of mages outside the circle which apparently he has done.  At least that's my take.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the PC's party is a exception to everything in DAO just like DA2. They're in this special bubble. 

Not really... in DAO you can explain it with the Wardens. You just don't have any excuse in DA2, besides the fact that the Kirkwall templar are all incompetent fools.

And the fact that the Kirkwall templars may or may not owe you their lives. 

Wesley owes you his live too and still he is going all "THE ORDER DICTATES!" on you and just agrees to let the matter rest till you are away from the darkspawn.

Wesley's a damn idiot. All templars don't have to necessarily be idiots. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 04:50 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wynne said nothing about Fereldan in that statement. 

She says she's accepted position to advise the ruler of Ferelden and right in the same sentence that there's been no such advisors to "the throne" in the long time. What else would she be supposed to speak of?

[KJandrew]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In a very long time meaning how long exactly? Who was it? Why was it done? (Importantly where was it and what did the Chantry say/do about it).

All red herrings. At the end of the day there were mages serving as court advisors.

Which mages? Why? When? 

For all the hell we know it could've been during the Imperium rule! 

Except it that the fact that the circle has been around longer than Fereldan has been a Kingdom

[Kohaku]

This was one of the few things that bothered me with the game overall after I played as a mage in my current game. Of course there are times when you can tell people outright you are a mage. I was glad that Meredith commented on the fact as well. That would have been a slap in the face if she out of anyone didn't say anything. Outside of that it just seem so strange to be casting spells in the street and no one runs, hides, screams for templars. Nothing.

I know we're important. I get that. However, the first year you are there you aren't. I guess you are offered some protection being with the smugglers and mercs but what about after? So we know your good at your job but wouldn't that have made you an even bigger target?

I'll never forget my character saying something like: "Meredith is just dying to slap me in the Circle". I said to myself, "No she's not. She's not going to do jack. So keep on keeping on."