184 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
...That's...odd. Why would it be like that? 

And really lame. 

a mage nobility might remind them too much of a magocracy. Like the ancient Tevinter Imperium and the contemporary Tevinters who opposed the Orlesian Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I understand those. I was referring more to a Chancellor kind of person with a lot of political power outside the Circle.  Though Wilhelm is an interesting case. I wonder how often mages were allowed to retire for service. 

Wilheim is an exceptional case because Ferelden was under Orlesian occupation for a century, and Wilhelm aided Moira the Rebel Queen and Maric the Savior against the Orlesian forces (with Shale). Given how the Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation, I'd wager that Wilheim's service towards the liberation of Ferelden played a role in his ability to have a wife and children (since that luxury is only afforded to Grey Warden mages, given that some Circles prohibit mages from having relationships and all Circles forbid mages from raising their own children).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I hate that chant. 

And a possessed mage chancellor could do the same to the king and wreck as much destruction couldn't they?

They could, especially if they are chancellors to weak willed kings who don't want to rule (unhardened Alistair).
But it could be because the mage Warden is an exception. I don't think the Chantry would be ok with it and would try to make it a one time thing only.

And I'd expect Templars in Denerim to increase.

[Kimberly Shaw]

DA:O Fereldan was having a blight. You were a grey warden, so apostates travelling with you could assume to be grey wardens. Fereldan templars had lots of things going on that didn't involve harrassing the last known Grey Warden fighting off the blight.

In DA2 the WHOLE PLOT OF THE GAME is about Templars v Mages (okay and the idol and Qunari) and no it doesn't make any sense that the developers make mage Hawke suffer no repurcussions or that he'd be able to use coin to turn a blind eye when the nobility of the city cannot do so. Stop trying to defend the indefensible, it makes you sound simple.

Bioware should have at least put in a quest in Act 1 to explain why/how a bunch of Apostates are allowed to run around casting spells with the blessing of the templars/Meredith for the entire game in the most Mage oppressed region in the game world.

That they didn't, and allow the game to let you be a Blood Mage without ANY repurcussions to the storyline is beyond ridiculous and perhaps the biggest failing of the game (of which there are many).

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 04 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[Lisa_H]

From what I have gathered nobles get no preferential treatment at all when it comes to magic. However a wealthy noble may have better resouces to hide it and get away with it. It is probably considered rude to pry too much into nobles personal life and therefore it is easier for them to get away. If they are exposed however the same rules seem to apply to them, and they loose all their noble rights and are locked away in the Circle, and it also seems to cause some shame and embarrassment to their family.
Once Hawke got rich she probably did not have to fight for her survival everday, and that makes it a lot easier to hide magic.

Modifié par Lisa_H, 04 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[KJandrew]

Abispa wrote...

"Noble families aren't given preferential treatment. The Amell family was in liine to become the Viscounts but they were ruined because one child was born with magic."

@ KJandrew -- Yes, but Hawke's mother was still able to marry into a noble family. Having a mage child in DA would be the equivalent of a Southern family having a Black child during the slavery era, but if the child had light skin and could "blend in," s/he was allowed to be a part of "polite society" so long as they didn't make it common knowledge that the Southern aristocracy had "accepted" a half-blood child. At least that is how I interpret the bits that DA has revealed so far.

Malcolm Hawke wasn't nobility or are you talking about Gamlen saying how she was going to married to a Reinbeck? I always assumed it would be something like a third son she was going to marry, like in real life when noble families were disgraced

[cleosilver]

TobiTobsen wrote...


Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Even the chant says it.

A possessed mage ruler would not only have his own destructive potential but also people he could send to do his evil bidding.

The chant says Magic not mages.

My Mage Hawke belives that bit quite strongly. Her magic serves her, it doesn't rule her.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

KJandrew wrote...
Except it that the fact that the circle has been around longer than Fereldan has been a Kingdom

I do wonder how long as the Circle been in Fereldan.

If the summary about Parlathan is correct (from the Staff of Parlathan), the Magister Parlathan aided Calenhad in bringing together the warring teyrnirs to "create" the nation of Ferelden roughly 400 years ago (since he was crowned King in 5:42 Exalted) with the hope that mages would be treated as equals, but that didn't work out since he fled the Chantry soon after. The building used to house the Circle of Magi in Ferelden is Kinloch Hold, and was built by the Avvars with some help from the dwarves.

It appears that the Circle of Magi predates the formation of Ferelden since it's listed that the Circle of Magi took over Kinloch Hold in 3:87 Towers Age, and the Circle of Magi pledged its alliance to King Calenhad in 5:42 Exalted, according to The Legend of Calenhad, Chapter 2.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[Beerfish]

This is a good topic for a thread. If a person plays as a mage I'd like to see a few more solo encounters with demons when he/she sleeps. They talk about the dangers of everyone else being a mage but if you play as one you are rarely tested unless in a quest about someone else.

[TobiTobsen]

cleosilver wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...


Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Even the chant says it.

A possessed mage ruler would not only have his own destructive potential but also people he could send to do his evil bidding.

The chant says Magic not mages.

My Mage Hawke belives that bit quite strongly. Her magic serves her, it doesn't rule her.

Hehe. I'm pretty sure the Chantry would support my interpretation of the words  Serves them better.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I hate that chant.

And a possessed mage chancellor could do the same to the king and wreck as much destruction couldn't they?

They could, especially if they are chancellors to weak willed kings who don't want to rule (unhardened Alistair).
But it could be because the mage Warden is an exception. I don't think the Chantry would be ok with it and would try to make it a one time thing only.

And I'd expect Templars in Denerim to increase.

Probably with Eamons help. He always seemed to be pretty eager to please Orlais. Just like the whole "Anora is barren. Get rid of her and marry someone in the favour of the orlesian empress" exchange of letters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Beerfish wrote...

This is a good topic for a thread. If a person plays as a mage I'd like to see a few more solo encounters with demons when he/she sleeps. They talk about the dangers of everyone else being a mage but if you play as one you are rarely tested unless in a quest about someone else.

That's actually a very good idea.

I think they could have made a unique sidequest for every class. I think Origins had that with the rogue, only they can do Slim Couldtry's quest, unless I am mistaken?

A mage sidequest could have been dreaming in the fade and resisting the possession of a demon. Possibly after his / her mother died, mages are afterall susceptible to possession more when they are under stress.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think Origins had that with the rogue, only they can do Slim Couldtry's quest, unless I am mistaken?

You needed to put at least one point in the rogue-related abilities available to every class, iirc. The dreams for mages are neat idea though, although wonder how well it'd fly given how many seem to resent the whole Fade thing... still, i'd like it personally.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[KJandrew]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

This is a good topic for a thread. If a person plays as a mage I'd like to see a few more solo encounters with demons when he/she sleeps. They talk about the dangers of everyone else being a mage but if you play as one you are rarely tested unless in a quest about someone else.

That's actually a very good idea.

I think they could have made a unique sidequest for every class. I think Origins had that with the rogue, only they can do Slim Couldtry's quest, unless I am mistaken?

A mage sidequest could have been dreaming in the fade and resisting the possession of a demon. Possibly after his / her mother died, mages are afterall susceptible to possession more when they are under stress.

Any one with pickpocket skills could have Slim's quests

[Asdara]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

This is a good topic for a thread. If a person plays as a mage I'd like to see a few more solo encounters with demons when he/she sleeps. They talk about the dangers of everyone else being a mage but if you play as one you are rarely tested unless in a quest about someone else.

That's actually a very good idea.

I think they could have made a unique sidequest for every class. I think Origins had that with the rogue, only they can do Slim Couldtry's quest, unless I am mistaken?

A mage sidequest could have been dreaming in the fade and resisting the possession of a demon. Possibly after his / her mother died, mages are afterall susceptible to possession more when they are under stress.

Good idea, but it's trickier than it first appears.  It would have to be a "you win no matter what" quest - or you'd become an abomination and... game over right?  OR, conversely, it could be that you align yourself with a "happy spirit" (like Wynne... or like Anders... sort of, not really) and become that Spirit Healer specialization you have no other worldly means to become...

Still - even when we're IN the Fade for that elven boy, the demons go for our companions, not us, not the mage standing in front of them... which flies in the face of everything that is taught that our companions are even THERE if they aren't mages... sure it happened in Circle Tower, but a demon dragged everyone in wholesale then, not "oh hey guys we need to save a boy in dreams, who's free this weekend?"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Asdara wrote...
Good idea, but it's trickier than it first appears.  It would have to be a "you win no matter what" quest - or you'd become an abomination and... game over right?  OR, conversely, it could be that you align yourself with a "happy spirit" (like Wynne... or like Anders... sort of, not really) and become that Spirit Healer specialization you have no other worldly means to become...

Yea a game-over option wouldn't have been feasible. As much as I would have loved the option to become an abomination, it's unfeasible.

And yes I always HATED the idea that you can learn specs from books (like in Awakening) or just can learn them by instinct, even if they involve fade spirts (like spirit warrior and spirit healer).

Actually, I think that would have been a good opportunity to make the mage either learn blood magic or spirit healer. But not many would like the idea of having either this or that. My mage was both, but I would have appreciated the choice.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[nicethugbert]

I agree this is underdeveloped.

I think the fact that Kirkwall is a cesspool of massive corruption would have been part of the mechanism for surviving as a mage in Kirkwall: disguises, favors, and bribes. All of that is implied already, but there are some points where it needs to be specific, and some contradictions resolved.

[Asdara]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Asdara wrote...
Good idea, but it's trickier than it first appears.  It would have to be a "you win no matter what" quest - or you'd become an abomination and... game over right?  OR, conversely, it could be that you align yourself with a "happy spirit" (like Wynne... or like Anders... sort of, not really) and become that Spirit Healer specialization you have no other worldly means to become...

Yea a game-over option wouldn't have been feasible. As much as I would have loved the option to become an abomination, it's unfeasible.

And yes I always HATED the idea that you can learn specs from books (like in Awakening) or just can learn them by instinct, even if they involve fade spirts (like spirit warrior and spirit healer).

Actually, I think that would have been a good opportunity to make the mage either learn blood magic or spirit healer. But not many would like the idea of having either this or that. My mage was both, but I would have appreciated the choice.

On specializations:  I think blood mage being open to one and all works - obviously it just takes the will to put your blood where your lyrium should go or someone else's.  It's presented as an extremely simple cross over, which is why so many mages seem to take it as a last resort.  

I thought the Arcane Warrior from the soul of the dead elf thing worked - at least it was plausible and made some semblance of sense.

Tomes... could work for Specific Spells - but to learn a whole style of magic from a book seems far-fetched.

Spirit Healer... makes no sense in DA2 as an option.  It wouldn't be possible for Hawke to just up and wander the Fade to befriend a healing spirit as an apostate with no real resources to devote to magical research while trying to stay on the sly.

I forget what some of the others were - but yes - this should be addressed at some point.  Specializations are good and we want them, but make them have a context and make them something to work at getting, not just some automatic open tree that pops up with no reason associated.  That goes across all classes, but seems especially important for mages, given the limited availability of instruction.  <_<

[Kimberly Shaw]

think blood mage being open to one and all works - obviously it just takes the will to put your blood where your lyrium should go or someone else's. It's presented as an extremely simple cross over, which is why so many mages seem to take it as a last resort.

I kind of thought a demon had to teach you blood magic, at least that's how it worked in Origins? or at least another blood mage?

[LobselVith8]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

think blood mage being open to one and all works - obviously it just takes the will to put your blood where your lyrium should go or someone else's. It's presented as an extremely simple cross over, which is why so many mages seem to take it as a last resort.

I kind of thought a demon had to teach you blood magic, at least that's how it worked in Origins? or at least another blood mage?

There are mages who learn blood magic from demons (and the Warden from the Circle of Magi can when he goes into the Fade to rescue Connor), but Jowan seemed to learn it from reading books (which is why the books on blood magic were removed from the library), and there is a book you can read in Awakening that would instruct you on blood magic if you never received the knowledge in Origins.

[Vormaerin]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. I just want a codex on it. Because that with the mages can't hold titles thing just bugs me. 

You are aware that Chancellor is an office, not a title?   A title is a position of nobility like bann, arl, teryn, or king.  A titled mage holds direct political authority over a fief and the people on it.

Chancellor is just a job position, someone who is doing the king's work on the king's authority.   Such offices usually went to titled nobles, but Chancellor in the real world was often a position given to a priest.  Priests couldn't have titles either in medieval Europe, but they held a lot of government jobs.

[darrylzero]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

This is a good topic for a thread. If a person plays as a mage I'd like to see a few more solo encounters with demons when he/she sleeps. They talk about the dangers of everyone else being a mage but if you play as one you are rarely tested unless in a quest about someone else.

That's actually a very good idea.

I think they could have made a unique sidequest for every class. I think Origins had that with the rogue, only they can do Slim Couldtry's quest, unless I am mistaken?

A mage sidequest could have been dreaming in the fade and resisting the possession of a demon. Possibly after his / her mother died, mages are afterall susceptible to possession more when they are under stress.

Co-sign.

[darrylzero]

Asdara wrote...

I liked being able to play Hawke as a mage and I wouldn't have been happy if that option was just "removed for convenience" any better than I like the present situation of it not really making a difference in life for Hawke.

Problem points for me - where I thought it absolutely should have come up:
1) Arrival in Kirkwall / Battle at the gate-guard
I can see WHY this didn't get my imprisoned immediately (game breaking, obviously), but a warning perhaps? A "keep your head down if you want to live here you apostate, I don't have time for you now but keep making noise and I'll find a free moment to lock you away" threat / warning might have been nice from someone - or a friendlier version of a note from a fellow mage-in-hiding at some point.

Wishful thinking would have had me taken into the Circle, shown what life was like inside, and escaping through the underground railroad within a year - sadly leaving my whiny big-brother to shoulder the family burden and thus have more reason to resent me when I arrive as a fugitive who will rise to fame and power, eclipsing him completely... Could have met Anders then too and had a much deeper connection to the mage-plight all in one episode - this could have been the "mage" placement quest as the Mercenaries seem to be for warrior and the Smugglers for rouge RP types.

I everything you said, and point one above in particular.  I have been thinking that a chance to play for at least some part of your year of servitude would be good, and adding a mage-specific one would have been great too.  Sort of like origins that occur a little further in, your entry-points into Kirkwall.

I have been imagining it being done in a way that brings the the smuggler path in conflict with the mercenary path, the mercenaries attempting to hunt down the smugglers for undercutting the business of some noble.  You then could play either side of the conflict.

I'm less sure how Bethany would fit in.  It would be cool to break her out of the mage tower, creating an interplay between all three entry-points, but that might complicate things later.  Maybe she gets whisked off by someone before the Templars get their hands on her?  Or maybe you don't fully control her in that battle and she refuses to use magic or something?  That's one of the half-dozen or so battles that I really wished I could just run away from anyway, so I think the whole encounter could use a little work.

[Master Shiori]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

They could have done something similar to the whole Cowled Wizard stuff in Baldur's Gate 2. You have the whole magic problem there too. Maybe bribe some templars to look away or pretend you're are circle mage or something. Varric even lies to Ser Karras in such a fashion and it works.

Anything would have been better than the whole "nobody noticed anything" stuff they did, imo.

The Cowled Wizards in BG2 were a joke. All you had to do was buy a licence to use magic in the city (which wasn't even expensive, since I got it early on) and it's like they don't even exist.

How Hawke avoided detection while living in Lowntown is anyone's guess, but later on you have both the money and status to hide behind. After becoming the Champion he/she is virtualy untouchable.

One explanation could be that you don't use magic in broad daylight, since most combat encounters take place in buildings or during the night. Maybe Aveline and Varric used their influence to help you out or maybe the people are so scared of overzealous Templars that they'd rather suffer an apostate in the neighborhood than attract Meredith's attention.

[Exile Isan]

Okay I have to point out something that I can't believe nobody else has. If you import your mage Warden in Awakenings you become the Arl/Arlessa of Amarathine. That's right a mage and a Grey Warden holding a title. You might say him/her being a Grey Warden is what is protecting the Warden, but it didn't stop that Templar from trying to take Anders from the Wardens for being a mage.

I have no problem with people not calling my mage Hawke out on being a mage because I can separate gameplay from story. Yeah, I may have, in gameplay, thrown a fireball right in front of Cullen, but storywise Hawke's not going to do that s/he would just hit the enemy with the sharp end of her staff (staffs which can look like qunari swords btw) I mean that's why it has a blade on it, neither would Bethany or Anders or even Merrill. I mean that's just stupid, right in front of the Knight-Captain. However, casing magic in front of Fenris is entirely a different thing (he's not a templar and he asks for you help). My Hawke also never wore mage robes she wore her smuggler gear, Free Mage Robes (which look like clothing) and then the Champion armor. Also I carried the Staff of Parlathan for the entire game for the very reason that it looks like a melee weapon with a really long handle.

As for Anders and Merrill not being caught either, Anders is running free clinic for the people of darktown said people are probably protecting Anders to some extent (lying when the templar come looking) and in Act III his friendship with the Champion has been protecting him to some extent (words right out of Meredith's mouth actually). Merrill tells you that even among the Dalish Keepers never cast their magic in public. And taking out thugs in the street at night? Who the heck is going to complain about a mage who got rid of gangs that attack people on the streets at first sight? Because I certainly wouldn't.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 04 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[TobiTobsen]

Master Shiori wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Simply put: because doing so would break the game for mage Hawke.

Had Bioware made an issue of it, then mage Hawke would get locked in the Gallows almost as soon as he/she docked in Kirkwall. That would make it impossible for a mage character to follow the story of DA2 like rogue or warrior could.

The only solutions are to either have everyone turn a blind eye to Hawke's use of magic or to make it impossible for mage Hawke to use any spells while in Kirkwall. The later would make the mage class practicaly unplayable.

They could have done something similar to the whole Cowled Wizard stuff in Baldur's Gate 2. You have the whole magic problem there too. Maybe bribe some templars to look away or pretend you're are circle mage or something. Varric even lies to Ser Karras in such a fashion and it works.

Anything would have been better than the whole "nobody noticed anything" stuff they did, imo.

The Cowled Wizards in BG2 were a joke. All you had to do was buy a licence to use magic in the city (which wasn't even expensive, since I got it early on) and it's like they don't even exist.

Even a joke is better than blind or moronic templars