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[TobiTobsen]

Exile Isan wrote...

Okay I have to point out something that I can't believe nobody else has. If you import your mage Warden in Awakenings you become the Arl/Arlessa of Amarathine. That's right a mage and a Grey Warden holding a title. You might say him/her being a Grey Warden is what is protecting the Warden, but it didn't stop that Templar from trying to take Anders from the Wardens for being a mage.

Anders is just a common Grey Warden grunt. The mage Warden is the Hero of Ferelden and/or the Commander of the Grey. If the Warden disappears many people will ask questions. If Anders disappears not many people will care. How many Wardens are at Vigils Keep at that time? They probably wouldn't sacrifice much of their time to search for Anders.

[Vormaerin]

Also, *you* aren't the Arl of Amaranthine. The Warden Commander of Vigil's Keep has the arldom in his keeping. Sure, the differences are cosmetic in some sense, but those kind of fig leafs were very important in medieval society. Medieval Bishops might hold certain lands like a Count, but they weren't Counts. They had no rights to that land independent of the office of Bishop. If someone else became Bishop, that person held those lands.

[Exile Isan]

Vormaerin wrote...

Also, *you* aren't the Arl of Amaranthine. The Warden Commander of Vigil's Keep has the arldom in his keeping. Sure, the differences are cosmetic in some sense, but those kind of fig leafs were very important in medieval society. Medieval Bishops might hold certain lands like a Count, but they weren't Counts. They had no rights to that land independent of the office of Bishop. If someone else became Bishop, that person held those lands.

Seneschal Varel says otherwise when you ask him why the heck you have to deal with the nobles when you're the Warden Commander and the darkspawn are still knocking on your door even though the Blight has ended, because you are the Arl/Arlessa of Amarantine. You took over Rendon Howe's title.

[watcher4321]

An Apostate Hawke could have been explained a lot better but here is my take on it.

You show up in the city and save the guard from the mob. As soon as the fight starts most bystanders would run for cover leaving your party and the guard. You do save his life and the city guard are not Templers. I could easily see the Guard saying he would keep quiet as a thank you for saving his life but it would have been better if he also recomended keeping a low profile.

Next you are tested for the mercenaries or the smuglers. I sided with the mercs and while I killed the target as a mage presumably one does not go around killing people in broad daylight with or without magic. So I could rationalise that as happening in an out of the way place. Kirkwall is not so lawless that you can just bump off regular citizens without the guard getting upset.

For the rest of the pre act 1 year you are proteced by the group you are working for and keep the methods of how you work under raps with only a few knowing your a mage. Any targets are dead.

Act 1 - A lot of your action is out of the city or behind closed doors. Even playing a good guy my mage tended not to leave too many witnesses when he tackled gangs or slavers etc. Likewise attacking people at night, well its dark few witnesses around and getting and most templers seem to be home in bed at night.

For the rest of the time perhaps you are passed off as a visiting member of the Ferelden circle. One of Trask's missions had me helping get some mages comming from another city past Templers (after having to kill their mad blood mage leader) Varrick told the suspicious templer that I was from Farelden's circle helping out with the local blood mage problem.

If the templer was willing to buy that it might well be that its not unheard of for magi to visit other lands. Looking at the two games in Farelden until you undergo your Harrowing you can't leave the tower but after that magi are sent out on assignment and don't alway have templer guards. Wynn is an example of this.

As long as you are "visiting" from another circle you might still be under that circle's jurisdiction unless you step too far out of line. This could have been backed up more by having some requirement to register with the Kirkwall templers as a Farelden Circle mage and that combined with doing favours for certain templers and others with influence could explain how you can still keep walking around.

Act 2 is begining to stretch things a bit. You have a fancy house and you are not just another refugee what is under the radar so to speak. I would have thought that visiting might get you so far but once you put down roots you would have to transfer to the local circle and be subject to its rules and customs. As others have said position or wealth is no protector especially in a place like Kirkwall.

Act 3 Your champ. That can be justified by saying something like anyone gaining the title of champ had the freedom of the city etc. The head cleric may also have spoken up for you at this stage and technicaly the local templers answeer to her or at least they are suppost to. By this time things are really tence in the city and Meredith may simply have decided that moving against you openly could/would cause more political unrest that it was worth and given the title of champion makes arresting you possibly illegal decides not to move. This would have had to be fleshed out a bit with some comments at the very least and perhaps you having to fend off random encounters with templers out to take you down unofficially instead of the odd bandit that pops up.

[Abispa]

I like the idea of having Hawke plagued by demons like all the other mages, but I can't see how it can be executed in a way that won't make me tear my hear out. Every time I have had a conversation with a demon since DA:O, there is a part where the demon says, "So, just let me use you in some way and we can be friends!" and the only options given that won't make my character a complete moron are, "Gee, I don't think that would be proper!" or my favorite, "Die, evil fiend!"

[Deified Data]

Bioware wanted to give players the opportunity to be a mage, and the only sane way to implement that is to do so by segregating story and gameplay. It can't be helped. The only solution would be to restrict mage as a playable class, and that would have the fanbase up in arms. Creating an entirely different campaign for an apostate Hawke wouldn't be practical.

[LobselVith8]

Exile Isan wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Also, *you* aren't the Arl of Amaranthine. The Warden Commander of Vigil's Keep has the arldom in his keeping. Sure, the differences are cosmetic in some sense, but those kind of fig leafs were very important in medieval society. Medieval Bishops might hold certain lands like a Count, but they weren't Counts. They had no rights to that land independent of the office of Bishop. If someone else became Bishop, that person held those lands.

Seneschal Varel says otherwise when you ask him why the heck you have to deal with the nobles when you're the Warden Commander and the darkspawn are still knocking on your door even though the Blight has ended, because you are the Arl/Arlessa of Amarantine. You took over Rendon Howe's title.

I think part of the reason that the Warden-Commander can serve as the de facto Arl of Amaranthine while a mage is because none of the mages in the order are bound by any of the restrictions of the mages who are in the Circle of Magi. David Gaider addressed this point on another matter - if the Hero of Ferelden were to have a child as a mage (like the son with Morrigan), the child would not be taken away because the Grey Warden is "not part of the Circle" and therefore "not subject to the will of the Chantry."

[frustratemyself]

Plot armour. Plus it would have been like Vampire: The Masquerade as a nosferatu - way too much trouble to make it worthwhile.

[LadyBri]

There are a couple of scenes/lines that could have been adjusted for a mage player. One that sticks out the most for me is Cullen's "Mages aren't the same as you or me".

However, and maybe someone else mentioned this but idk, Meredith never forgets that you are an apostate and if you don't appear to be fully on her side she will happily threaten you with Circle imprisonment if you don't do as she says.

[Vormaerin]

Exile Isan wrote...

Seneschal Varel says otherwise when you ask him why the heck you have to deal with the nobles when you're the Warden Commander and the darkspawn are still knocking on your door even though the Blight has ended, because you are the Arl/Arlessa of Amarantine. You took over Rendon Howe's title.

No, The Warden Commander holds the arldom of Amaranthine.   It makes little practical difference, but it makes quite a lot of legal difference.   If my PC was Arl of Amaranthine and I had a son, that son would be the next Arl of Amaranthine.  But that's not the case.   The next Warden Commander will govern the arldom.

You happen to be the Warden Commander.  The Warden Commander acts as Arl of Amaranthine.   But you are not an Arl.   You hold the Arldom.  Its a very important distinction in medieval law.

[Torax]

Since it works in this thread to.

I just trained my Hawke with Jedi Mind Trick.

Hawke - "These are not the Apostates you are looking for. Move along."

Templar - "These are not the Apostates we are looking for. Move along."

City Guard - "Move along."

[Abispa]

One way would have been to make the apostate's story (which appears to be canon) the story the rogue's and fighter's are based on, not the other way around. Hawke becoming Champion of Kirkwall seems more fitting for a knight than a mage. Hawke should be trying to escape the Circle, working with the Underground, living in desperation until you fully join Anders OR you become sick of how all your fellow mages turn to blood magic and grudgingly side with Meredith. It seems strange for an apostate to be allowed to become Champion of Kirkwall, but a fighter/rogue could have easily been worked into the mage underground thanks to being Bethany's sibling.

[Rifneno]

Torax wrote...

Since it works in this thread to.

I just trained my Hawke with Jedi Mind Trick.

Hawke - "These are not the Apostates you are looking for. Move along."

Templar - "These are not the Apostates we are looking for. Move along."

City Guard - "Move along."

Actually, some ridiculous excuses would be kind of fun.  Remember that scene in DAO where Wynne notices if the Warden used blood magic when clearing the Circle Tower?  It got cut from the final release because they didn't want the possibility of you losing both the mages and the templars for the Battle of Denerim if you didn't weasel your way out of it, but it was quite amusing.  "You're a blood mage!"  "No, that was... err... grey warden magic."  "Grey warden magic?  I've never heard of such a thing!"  "Oh totally, we have all kinds of ancient spells you guys have never heard of."

[Chuvvy]

I like casting spells in the middle of the Gallows, activate bloodmagic, that sort of thing. Man the templars are attentive.

[scpulley]

LobselVith8 wrote...

One of the central themes of DA2 is the divide between the templars and the mages, and one of our choices is to be an apostate Hawke. Although we get the impression that the life of an apostate is a dangerous one because they're always at risk of being discovered, Hawke never has to face those dangers. While in Kirkwall, the central base of power for the templars across eastern Thedas, Hawke can use magical abilities a few minuets after getting off the boat, and none of the templars or members of the city guard seem to notice that he used magic to defeat the deserters.

Unlike DA:O, the protagonist mage isn't protected by the fact that he's a Grey Warden - Hawke is a peniless and virtually powerless apostate, in a society where even the son of a powerful Arl (like Connor) is forced to go to the Circle of Magi. Despite occassional references here and there, Hawke can end up using magic with impunity, and he never faces any level of persecution as an apostate. There's never a case of Hawke having to deal with the templars because he's an apostate; no one tries to capture him or kill him, and even Knight-Captain Cullen can see Hawke perform magic and has amnesia about the entire experience when he tells Hawke that mages aren't people "like you and me." Hawke is never under any real threat of getting taken by the templars, he never need to worry that witnesses are going to report him, and he never has to be concerned that his apostate companions are going to be captured or killed either.

We get Anders dismissing the Circles as slavery, we get Fenris supporting them as justified, but we're never allowed to shape an opinion based on personal experience. Hawke never has to endure Bethany being made tranquil for being an illegal mage, Hawke never has to worry that the apostates Merrill or Anders are going to be taken away by the templars, and Hawke never has to face the dangers of living a life as an apostate because everyone is blind to his existance as an illegal mage. There's a certain disconnect to the story because even as an illegal mage, Hawke never lives the life of one.

Because.....Hawke is really the maker and he is jedi mind tricking everyone, including you the player, that he is actually there in game! He's really just window dressing for the game's purposes so no one notices him. He could run around naked shooting lightning out of his ass and no one would care.

[ModernMan2009]

I prefer the Mage play-though like many other here and I find it comical how I can take the Blood Magic specialization and not have a single negative consequence for doing so. I can even lecture Merill about the evils of Blood Magic and then in the next battle sequence I can draw life from her till she drops. Then after the battle I can lecture her again as if nothing happened! Just strikes me as odd.

[Mnemnosyne]

At the very least, there should have been a quest where some templars come after you or one of your mage companions, and you have to throw them off the trail in some way other than 'slaughter them all' since that would just bring down even more templars upon you.

It wouldn't have to be a mage Hawke only quest because there's also Bethany in Act I, and Anders and Merrill in Acts 2 and 3. If templars were to come after you or Bethany, for instance, whichever one is the mage, you've got to deal with it either way. And it would kind of justify Bethany's constant nervousness around templars if there was actually at least one quest that actually had you or one of your party actively hunted.

[Naughty Bear]

Hawke has a tool where it wipes peoples memories. Men in black 1 and 2 style.

[Otter Pack]

To put it simply,it would become such a pain in the ass to navigate Kirkwall,that one would have to make being a hated apostate part of the plot,however,they didn't write the story with the intent of going that direction, and it would be a **** to script it all as others previously said. You would require a seperate plot or game even if you wanted this to happen.

[MyKingdomCold]

during the first year when you're working for Athenril, probably Meeran too, she tells you that she can help you out. I'm not sure how she did it, maybe by bribing templars?

Anyway, in Act 1 you can still kind of work with her for one job with the possibility of future jobs. Even though none ever come, maybe she's still helping you?

Later, Hawke may be too famous or whatever .

Modifié par MyKingdomCold, 06 avril 2011 - 12:07 .

[Sylriel]

Not my work, simply reposting from the Motivational Posters thread.

I laugh every time i see that pic.  It's so true.

[Altima Darkspells]

I like to imagine my Hawke was already an abomination, and she didn't know it. Would certainly explain the angel or devil sitting on Hawke's shoulder through the dialogue wheel.

Or maybe Hawke is just surrounded by...Hawking Holes.

[Lexington202]

Granted if they treated Hawke like any other apostate, there would be no DAII for a mage. However, they really could have done the mage story better.

It would have been nice if the templars at least acknowledged that Hawke was a mage (aren't they supposed to be able to sense magic?) and perhaps agreed not to take Hawke in because he/she helped them. I would have even liked to see the templars try to take Hawke like they did Bethany (with the option to get out of it of course).

I think what annoyed me the most is the quest where you help Cullen, the damn Knight Captain, and he acts like he didn't even see it At first I thought, okay, he's just turning a blind eye because Hawke helped him. But noo, later on in a conversation I get the whole "Mages aren't people like you and me" and "I've been hearing interesting rumors about your Hawke, I hope they're not true." He shouldn't need rumors to know Hawke is a mage.

But ah well, what can you do. At least Meredith acknowledged my character as a mage.

[MICHELLE7]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

during the first year when you're working for Athenril, probably Meeran too, she tells you that she can help you out. I'm not sure how she did it, maybe by bribing templars?

Anyway, in Act 1 you can still kind of work with her for one job with the possibility of future jobs. Even though none ever come, maybe she's still helping you?

Later, Hawke may be too famous or whatever .

This is true...Athenril pretty much says she'll keep you safe as long as you are with her...so the first year is pretty cut and dry.

As for Act 1 and Act 2 there is a scene with Varric where it alludes to the fact that he is paying off the coterie to keep "blondie" ( Anders) safe. Later a dialogue between Anders and Varric suggests that the "gangs" have left Anders alone.

My assumption would be that for a pretty penny they (the gangs) would turn in an apostate mage. Varric most likely kept Anders from being tagged by the templars. If he would do this for Anders...he more than likely would do it for Hawke...especailly since (at least in Act 1) he was depending on both Hawke and Anders(with his maps) to help him and Bartrand in the Deep Roads...in other words keep your investments safe.

Anders later talks to Hawke about his/her money and position in the city keeping him/her safe...he worries that it won't be enough...and I believe that this is before Hawke becomes Champion. I think they are trying to put forth the fact that while certain apostates (Hawke, Anders, and Merrill (to en extent though she is less visible)) seem to be free to wander around the city they are in constant worry about just how long that freedom may last. Anders conversations probably reveal that more than any other.

After Hawke becomes Champion (at least for Hawke) it really doesn't matter anymore...Hawke is too visible in the city as its protector. If Meridith hauled her/him off to the gallows there would be an outcry from the people and civil distress. The city is already teetering on the edge(without a viscount)...I don't think Meridith would cross that line and risk everything blowing up...at least not at the time. If the line hadn't been crossed with the chantry being blown up she might have eventually gotten there and arrested Hawke...Hawke was in every sense of the word Meridith's rival whether he/she was a mage or not.

I think the tension or fear of being a mage is there...you just have to pick the right dialogue options to find it...by replaying certain scenes you can find out a lot more going on than by just going through one time. Really kind of blew my mind at how different the game plays out in some areas due to your choices. I've played pro-mage three times now and gotten a lot of different dialogue and options with each choice...none of the those playthroughs have been exactly alike.

[AnethmA]

because of ****** poor decisions

why is merrill persecuted for being a blood mage, but no1 seems to notice hawk draining them of their blood
i guess its to much to ask for to have repercussions based on your decisions