26 réponses à ce sujet

[pprrff]

Why is blood magic and demon are so mixed together? Every blood mage in the game are either abomination, or at least summon demons to fight (which would be very cool if Hawk was able to summon his own demon).

Codex said something to about how blood magic is a lost art so people have to learn it from the demons, but does that mean if the circle offered robust educational program for blood magic, then there is less chance of demon corruption?

Anythoughts? And please don't get into an argument over whether blood magic is evil or not, just give your interperation on whether blood magic and demon summoning are inevitably linked.

[Asdara]

My guess is that using your blood to fuel magic - given the current dogma of the Circle most mages are raised in - means you have reached a point of desperation that would make you highly susceptible to demon invitations - and then add to that the fact that your life force is currently bleeding out of you during execution, making it the more urgent that some other power source be employed if you are to survive.... seems like a great time to make a deal for your life.

Which, to me, makes it somewhat logical that Merrill wouldn't be as susceptible to demonic possession - with the exception of that whole mirror person - because she chosen to use blood magic in a non-dire situation and can therefore be more judicious in her application of it - avoiding the whole stressful desperation element.

[hoorayforicecream]

pprrff wrote...

Why is blood magic and demon are so mixed together? Every blood mage in the game are either abomination, or at least summon demons to fight (which would be very cool if Hawk was able to summon his own demon).

Codex said something to about how blood magic is a lost art so people have to learn it from the demons, but does that mean if the circle offered robust educational program for blood magic, then there is less chance of demon corruption?

Anythoughts? And please don't get into an argument over whether blood magic is evil or not, just give your interperation on whether blood magic and demon summoning are inevitably linked.

Blood Magic originated in the old (centuries ago) Tevinter Imperium, said to have been taught by the old god Dumat. Then the whole empire fell, and the knowledge was mostly lost. The reason that blood magic is associated with demons is twofold:

#1. Demons are usually the only ones who still know it (since they have been around since the times of the old imperium) and are willing to teach it (bargain price: your soul)
#2. Blood Magic can be used to control peoples' minds. This is very similar to how demon possession allows demons to control peoples' minds.

You can't really find somebody to teach blood magic aside from blood mages (e.g. tevinter magisters) or demons. Since most blood mages tend to be unwilling to share anything that might jeopardize their positions of power, demons are the only "willing" source of blood magic instruction.

[The Angry One]

Blood magic can be used to more easily summon demons.
Apparently Merril does so to drop that barrier in Sundermount ("You summoned a demon!") though the visuals don't match that.

[LobselVith8]

I'd believe The Angry One is correct. I think that it has to do with blood magic being used with demonology. Summoning too many demons can lead to the mage losing control, and anyone in the vicinity can end up being possessed (Uldred in "A Broken Circle" and Sophia in "Warden's Keep").

[The Baconer]

I also believe bringing beings through the Veil in either direction calls for large amounts of Lyrium, making Blood Magic a convenient shortcut in that regard.

[Bigdoser]

The Baconer wrote...

I also believe bringing beings through the Veil in either direction calls for large amounts of Lyrium, making Blood Magic a convenient shortcut in that regard.

Summoning takes up ALOT of lyrium but with blood magic you don't have to use alot of blood to cast the spell you wish.

[hoorayforicecream]

The other sinister thing about blood magic is that the blood doesn't have to be the mage's.

[pprrff]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The other sinister thing about blood magic is that the blood doesn't have to be the mage's.

Yea, that I think is the worst aspect of the whole thing.

But should blood magic be legal, and that the circle opens a class Bloodmagic 101, providing access to senior mages and enchanters, and should they find some sources other than human blood (cow blood for example), then blood magic is not anymore dangerous to the mage than casting magic from lyrium.

[pprrff]

Bigdoser wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

I also believe bringing beings through the Veil in either direction calls for large amounts of Lyrium, making Blood Magic a convenient shortcut in that regard.

Summoning takes up ALOT of lyrium but with blood magic you don't have to use alot of blood to cast the spell you wish.

That explaination probablly explains it the best. It's just easier for bloodmage to consort with demons.

[The Angry One]

It's a case of fearing what you can't control.
Lyrium has an upper limit more or less, because you need a lot more lyrium than you do blood for a given spell and it's in limited supply.
Blood? Everybody around you has blood. A city full of people is a massive potential fuel source.

[Torax]

Also keep in mind the Circle and the Chantry would never allow it cause of Tevinter and the Stigma it gives. Truly both Blood Magic and Lyrium are dangers when used in large amounts when going in or out of the fade. Those jumps through the Veil can tear it.

Lyrium limits you on the quantity you have. Blood is your own and or others standing around you. Means that if someone wished they could go in and out of the fade, summon spirits all the time and so on. Otherwise it just takes a ton of Lyrium and I'm sure a mage could still summon a spirit that way. Blood Magic just starts a slippery slope if the mage using it starts sacrificing those around them. People will also always fear demons. Whether or not you should really be needs to be taken on a case by case basis. But many times the game doesn't allow that to happen. Demons bad. Spirits not so much. Besides Justice of course.

[hoorayforicecream]

Torax wrote...

Also keep in mind the Circle and the Chantry would never allow it cause of Tevinter and the Stigma it gives. Truly both Blood Magic and Lyrium are dangers when used in large amounts when going in or out of the fade. Those jumps through the Veil can tear it.

Lyrium limits you on the quantity you have. Blood is your own and or others standing around you. Means that if someone wished they could go in and out of the fade, summon spirits all the time and so on. Otherwise it just takes a ton of Lyrium and I'm sure a mage could still summon a spirit that way. Blood Magic just starts a slippery slope if the mage using it starts sacrificing those around them. People will also always fear demons. Whether or not you should really be needs to be taken on a case by case basis. But many times the game doesn't allow that to happen. Demons bad. Spirits not so much. Besides Justice of course.

Don't forget that the Chantry controls all legitimate Lyrium trade too. They are the only source of lyrium, and thus control who gets it and who doesn't. You really can't regulate the amount of blood that's out there.

[Iosev]

From what I understand, blood magic is considered the first known magic in Thedas. According to the legend, it was taught to a Tevinter Magister from the Old God Dumat, although some believe that it originated from Arlathan elves.

According to the Chantry, blood magic was how the Tevinter Magisters entered the Golden City and corrupted it, making it black and creating the first darkspawn. Whether or not that is entirely true remains to be seen.

In practice, the allure of blood magic seems to revolve largely around the ability to use your own blood and life force (as well as other willing and unwilling participants), in addition to controlling others through their blood.

From what I remember, the Chantry has been persecuting and killing blood magi for some time now. That persecution has been so thorough that very few people in Thedas know how to use blood magic anymore. Demons are largely the only entities that still know how to use blood magic, which is why most current blood magi have ties to demons (because that's the only way how to learn it).

I personally have several questions regarding blood magic:

1. Is the blood magic that demons teach an altered, corrupt form of it?
2. Does blood magic really corrupt people, or are corruptible people more likely to seek out powers from demons?
3. Is there something else that the Chantry fears about blood magic that they don't want the public to know about?
4. Does the Chantry want people to rely on lyrium-based, Fade-related magic for some reason?

[Torax]

Elves had magic before Tevinter. Tevinter turned to blood magic to take out the elves. So no Blood Magic was not "necessarily" the first magic. Whose to say if even the Elven magic was the first? But the Elves were ancient and powerful. It supposedly took blood magic to destroy them. Odds are that means the Elves were not using it. Probably they were using Lyrium. The whole darkspawn and stuff was after Arlathan fell wasn't it?

[Iosev]

Torax wrote...

Elves had magic before Tevinter. Tevinter turned to blood magic to take out the elves. So no Blood Magic was not "necessarily" the first magic. Whose to say if even the Elven magic was the first? But the Elves were ancient and powerful. It supposedly took blood magic to destroy them. Odds are that means the Elves were not using it. Probably they were using Lyrium. The whole darkspawn and stuff was after Arlathan fell wasn't it?

Read this.

[hoorayforicecream]

arcelonious wrote...

From what I understand, blood magic is considered the first known magic in Thedas. According to the legend, it was taught to a Tevinter Magister from the Old God Dumat, although some believe that it originated from Arlathan elves.

According to the Chantry, blood magic was how the Tevinter Magisters entered the Golden City and corrupted it, making it black and creating the first darkspawn. Whether or not that is entirely true remains to be seen.

In practice, the allure of blood magic seems to revolve largely around the ability to use your own blood and life force (as well as other willing and unwilling participants), in addition to controlling others through their blood.

From what I remember, the Chantry has been persecuting and killing blood magi for some time now. That persecution has been so thorough that very few people in Thedas know how to use blood magic anymore. Demons are largely the only entities that still know how to use blood magic, which is why most current blood magi have ties to demons (because that's the only way how to learn it).

I personally have several questions regarding blood magic:

1. Is the blood magic that demons teach an altered, corrupt form of it?
2. Does blood magic really corrupt people, or are corruptible people more likely to seek out powers from demons?
3. Is there something else that the Chantry fears about blood magic that they don't want the public to know about?
4. Does the Chantry want people to rely on lyrium-based, Fade-related magic for some reason?

1. We don't know. The answer is *probably* not, but it may vary on a demon-to-demon basis.
2. Blood magic doesn't necessarily corrupt people. It's more likely the second, plus the fact that it provides a lot more power to mages (power corrupts, etc.), in addition to the whole "demons aren't exactly altruistic" thing.
3. Probably, but they haven't gone on public record stating what it is.
4. Very much so. Since the Chantry controls all of the (legitimate) lyrium trade in Thedas, they have a trump card to play in any magically-related issue. If people use blood magic, it cuts them out of the loop... sort of like how alternative energy sources tend to make oil companies nervous.

[Iosev]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

4. Very much so. Since the Chantry controls all of the (legitimate) lyrium trade in Thedas, they have a trump card to play in any magically-related issue. If people use blood magic, it cuts them out of the loop... sort of like how alternative energy sources tend to make oil companies nervous.

One interesting thing that I remember for Dragon Age: Origins is when you bring Oghren with you to the Guantlet during the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest.  While you're speaking to the Guardian, Oghren notes that the entire place is lined heavily with lyrium.  This makes me wonder if Andraste, or in the very least her original followers, have ties to lyrium and its powers.

Modifié par arcelonious, 04 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[Ieldra]

pprrff wrote...
Why is blood magic and demon are so mixed together? Every blood mage in the game are either abomination, or at least summon demons to fight (which would be very cool if Hawk was able to summon his own demon).

Codex said something to about how blood magic is a lost art so people have to learn it from the demons, but does that mean if the circle offered robust educational program for blood magic, then there is less chance of demon corruption?

Anythoughts? And please don't get into an argument over whether blood magic is evil or not, just give your interperation on whether blood magic and demon summoning are inevitably linked.

The Codex entry about "The Forbidden School: Blood Magic" says that it was originally just used as a different way to power spells before its additional power of mind control was discovered. There are several advantages of blood magic over regular magic, some of which are more likely to be evil, some are not:
(1) You are independent of lyrium. Which makes blood magic highly advantageous for apostates. This is a neutral power.
(2) You have the option of learning to control minds. This is most likely to be evil.
(3) You can use others' blood to power spells. This is neutral if the sources are willing.

There is no intrinsic link with demonic possession. My interpretation is that as a rule, only demons have the knowledge at this time since it is suppressed. Once a blood mage acquires that knowledge from a demon, she can teach it to others without further demonic involvement, though the demon may lie about demonic possession being necessary. If a blood mage manages to acquire the knowledge without demonic involvement, she will be able to use it like any other magical power source. 

That the game shows us blood magic so intertwined with demonic possession I see as the writers attempt to simplify things. Also "blood magic" as a term has bad connotations and it is easier to build on those bad connotations for a general "blood magic is evil" image than to "confuse the issue" with the more complex reality. This is based on the assumption that "most players are morons" and don't deal with complexity well. Which might or might not be true, I don't know, but I find it insulting.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[Torax]

arcelonious wrote...

Torax wrote...

Elves had magic before Tevinter. Tevinter turned to blood magic to take out the elves. So no Blood Magic was not "necessarily" the first magic. Whose to say if even the Elven magic was the first? But the Elves were ancient and powerful. It supposedly took blood magic to destroy them. Odds are that means the Elves were not using it. Probably they were using Lyrium. The whole darkspawn and stuff was after Arlathan fell wasn't it?

Read this.

The Elves had magic before the Imperium. The Elves existed before the humans were in Par Vollen. Just because the Tevinter's Legend claims blood magic was first and it was taught to them? The Elves of Arlathan were long before them. The Dwarves were also around long before the Tevinter Imperium. Just a heads up.

The first blight was 1300 years before origins. The Arlathan founding was like 8400 years before the dragon age. Tevinter and others came many thousrands of years later. Assuming the Elves didn't already know magic? They obviously knew enough to make things like the Eluvians and then some.


Edited for year years clarification.

For the link

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[Iosev]

Torax wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Torax wrote...

Elves had magic before Tevinter. Tevinter turned to blood magic to take out the elves. So no Blood Magic was not "necessarily" the first magic. Whose to say if even the Elven magic was the first? But the Elves were ancient and powerful. It supposedly took blood magic to destroy them. Odds are that means the Elves were not using it. Probably they were using Lyrium. The whole darkspawn and stuff was after Arlathan fell wasn't it?

Read this.

The Elves had magic before the Imperium. The Elves existed before the humans were in Par Vollen. Just because the Tevinter's Legend claims blood magic was first and it was taught to them? The Elves of Arlathan were long before them. The Dwarves were also around long before the Tevinter Imperium. Just a heads up.

The first blight was 1300 years before origins. The Arlathan fall was like 8400 years before the dragon age.

Please re-read my original comment.  I said that blood magic is "considered" to be the first magic, but I never said that was a fact (it's origin is disputed and still a mystery).  Legend tells that the Tevinters learned it from Dumat, but many historians believe that the Arlathan elves were using it before the Tevinters.

[Ziggeh]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

#2. Blood Magic can be used to control peoples' minds. This is very similar to how demon possession allows demons to control peoples' minds.

If you were to think of blood magic as the normal world equivelant of the powers demons use in the fade, there are a number of parellels. Given the as you say, usual source I think it's probable they're related, but really I think it all falls under the catagory of Things We Don't Know.

[Torax]

Legend also still states that the elves predate even the imperium by like 6500 years.

edited to add. Don't forget the ones who conquered changed the history and legend to fit their needs

Blood Magic is maybe the first? But whose to say that is in the end a full truth. Truth to the Imperium doesn't mean it's fully true. The Magisters make up their own rules to keep their power.

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[Torax]

Should also point out. The Elven Captives taught the Magisters about Lyrium. Which is what is likely powered all the Elven magic. Those members of the Imperium that learned about Lyrium and the Fade from the Elves became the first Magisters. The Elves knew all this long before the Imperium. Just the Elves probably didn't use Blood Magic.

Modifié par Torax, 04 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[Iosev]

Torax wrote...

Legend also still states that the elves predate even the imperium by like 6500 years.

edited to add. Don't forget the ones who conquered changed the history and legend to fit their needs

Blood Magic is maybe the first? But whose to say that is in the end a full truth. Truth to the Imperium doesn't mean it's fully true. The Magisters make up their own rules to keep their power.

Like I said, I never said it was the truth, it is merely what some of the current people of Thedas "consider" it as, given what they're told from legends and historians. 

Modifié par arcelonious, 04 avril 2011 - 09:28 .