236 réponses à ce sujet

[aftohsix]

One of the major complaints I've seen about DA2 is that if you play as a mage you're free to run around Kirkwall slinging spells, wearing robes and a staff and doing this in plain view of citizens, guards and templars.  There are very few consequences for this.

The complaint is that the game world should react to you.  I agree that this would be pretty cool.  However lets look at it realistically.

Based on the lore established in DAO, all apostates are either to be killed or captured by the Templars.  If we reallly had a reactive world to you being a mage in Kirkwall you'd HAVE to either be forced to join the circle (which we're told is like a prison in Kirkwall) or executed on the spot (which seems likely based on how Meredith views mages.)

So you're there, throwing a spell around in front of a templar and you'd either get killed or you'd get Dragon Age 2: Kirkwall mage tower.  Neither are exactly a fun gaming experience.

One of the other options would be to not allow the player to be a mage.  Think of the uproar if that was a direction they went.

It would be entirely possible to make the world reactive to Hawke being a mage but it would require designing a game within a game.  The mage storyline would have to be radically different from the other two.

 Bioware obviously went the easier route and asks for a greater deal of suspension of disbelief in this case, rather than re-writing large sections of the game.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. Here I was a mage and supposedly sympathetic to my fellows plight when in reality it didn't matter because the game was designed to ignore my talents. My friends and family would comment on how they were worried because I was a mage. I wish Hawke could just turn around and say "Guys, it's ok. I'm the hero."

Modifié par MelfinaofOutlawStar, 04 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[Rockpopple]

Exactly. Realistically this was their only feasible choice. I'm glad someone had the gall to post this up here.

[aftohsix]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. Here I was a mage and supposedly sympathetic to my fellows plight when in reality it didn't matter because the game was designed to ignore my talents. My friends and family would comment on how they were worried because I was a mage. I wish Hawke could just turn around and say "Guys, it's ok. I'm the hero."

Okay but in all honesty what was their option then?  What would you have had them do differently to make it more enjoyable for you?

[FellowerOfOdin]

A plot hole as large as a black hole still is a plot hole, no matter how nice it may look.

[aftohsix]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

A plot hole as large as a black hole still is a plot hole, no matter how nice it may look.

Yes.  I get that.  What I'm asking is how could Bioware have handled this better, given the lore and the time limits on development?

You guys can't all want to whine about it but not discuss it.

[Maverick827]

I think the game reacting to your being a mage would have been a lot like being a vampire in Oblivion: instead of being harmed by daylight, you are attacked by templars whenever they see you use magic. At first it sounds interesting, but eventually you simply find yourself hating the limiting mechanics and either cheat around them or cure yourself.

The cure, in DA2, would mean that no one plays a mage.

I think the only way it could have been done would to have subverted the "will they/wont they capture me" in the first place and create a radically different game: either you are an apostate who is eventually captured (e.g. plot railed) and taken to the circle with Carver joining the Templars to be with you, or Bethany is captured and taken to the circle, and you join the Templars as a Warrior or Rogue to be with her.

That way the storyline could have remained in tact, as there would always be a player for both parts, but depending on your class you would have been one or the other. In other words, if the player is going to be noticed by the Templars, it would have to have been done in the main plot, in my opinion, and not through some smaller game mechanic at risk of becoming cheap or annoying.

[Turran]

What would be so wrong that when playing a Mage, you would HAVE to fight off the Templars aswell? They already have rediculous amounts of enemies spawn in from no-where..?
Or atleast you kill the ones who see that you are infact a Mage, meaning they havn't told anyone else... Something along those lines?

EDIT: Or what the guy above me put rather well.

Modifié par Turran, 04 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[AkiKishi]

Then you remove the Mage class from the game. Of course they won't do that. They would rather have a "broken pointless" Mage class than no mage class at all.

[CitizenThom]

In Shadows of Amn (BG2), they implemented culturally forbidden magic pretty well. Not to mention that in DA2 the player comes across several apostates in the game who manage to elude the Templars. There's Anders too. A unique Mage storyline could have been implemented without tossing the rest of the story.

Until a templar sees you casting a spell they don't know you're a mage. As far as civillians go, there seem to be a large number who want to protect mages from the chantry. I have to imagine that in the first chapter, when you're working for the mercs or the smugglers, that they would be keeping you secret to protect you as an asset. In the second chapter, you should be able to perform tasks that show you as a good mage (Knight Commander hasn't gotten obsessive just yet) and after the finish of the second chapter you put that in concrete. By the time of the third chapter, you'd be negotiated with rather than sent to the Gallows.

Or it could have been something as simple as Hawke using disguises while in the city.

It could've been done, unfortunately it wasn't. Somewhat plot hole, but I'd more put it in the category of a missed opportunity.

[aftohsix]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Then you remove the Mage class from the game. Of course they won't do that. They would rather have a "broken pointless" Mage class than no mage class at all.

Exactly.  To me it seems either have no mage or have a non-reactive world to it.

And if this was the best way for them to do it how can this be a fair complaint?

Anyways I feel it's worth discussing.  Maybe we'll come up with some good ideas for Bioware to implement in a future game.

Modifié par aftohsix, 04 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

aftohsix wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. Here I was a mage and supposedly sympathetic to my fellows plight when in reality it didn't matter because the game was designed to ignore my talents. My friends and family would comment on how they were worried because I was a mage. I wish Hawke could just turn around and say "Guys, it's ok. I'm the hero."

Okay but in all honesty what was their option then?  What would you have had them do differently to make it more enjoyable for you?

If they knew they were going to involve a mage class they should have planned accordingly. Allowing the class with none of the consquences made the story neither immersive or realistic in the lore and world they created.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Maverick827 wrote...

I think the game reacting to your being a mage would have been a lot like being a vampire in Oblivion: instead of being harmed by daylight, you are attacked by templars whenever they see you use magic. At first it sounds interesting, but eventually you simply find yourself hating the limiting mechanics and either cheat around them or cure yourself.

The cure, in DA2, would mean that no one plays a mage.

I think the only way it could have been done would to have subverted the "will they/wont they capture me" in the first place and create a radically different game: either you are an apostate who is eventually captured (e.g. plot railed) and taken to the circle with Carver joining the Templars to be with you, or Bethany is captured and taken to the circle, and you join the Templars as a Warrior or Rogue to be with her.

That way the storyline could have remained in tact, as there would always be a player for both parts, but depending on your class you would have been one or the other. In other words, if the player is going to be noticed by the Templars, it would have to have been done in the main plot, in my opinion, and not through some smaller game mechanic at risk of becoming cheap or annoying.

Hah! I just thought of the only way the Fable 3 "touch" consept could be useful. Lure your intended target into an alley out of the Templars watchful eye and roast them into a crispy corpse.

[FellowerOfOdin]

A very simple yet better fix would have been to introduce (more) random encounters with templars in case that you're playing a mage plus make a few sidequests involving destroying clues about your deeds kept secure in the chantry; maybe even have a stealth mission for STDbella backing you up.

Let random templar patrols attack you at sight. Make people cower / slowly back away from you or let them call for guards, etc.

"Not having enough time" is not a valid reason for having such a huge plot hole. You don't have enought time to pull something off? Don't do it then. Don't have a mage class at all.

[kaimanaMM]

aftohsix wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. Here I was a mage and supposedly sympathetic to my fellows plight when in reality it didn't matter because the game was designed to ignore my talents. My friends and family would comment on how they were worried because I was a mage. I wish Hawke could just turn around and say "Guys, it's ok. I'm the hero."

Okay but in all honesty what was their option then?  What would you have had them do differently to make it more enjoyable for you?

While I loved DA2, I have to agree 100% with Melfina on this one.  I've played through 2 mage Hawke playthroughs and while I don't necessarily mind suspending my disbelief with a few buckets of salt, I do think it's a bit of a stretch at times within the game. 

- Mage Hawke comes upon Knight Captian Cullen and Wilmod.  Battle ensues.  Spells are slung.  Cullen says nothing and goes so far as to ask Mage Hawke to head to the Blooming Rose and talk to the lovely ladies there.

- Mage Hawke walks straight up to Knight Captain Cullen, in the middle of the Gallows courtyard and has the option to say outright, "Everyone's talking about Knight Commander Meredith, when do I get to meet her?"  To which Cullen responds, "You're the only mage in Kirkwall who'd be able to do so, but she's not really accepting visitors."

Those are two major examples I can think of off the top of my head.  What could have been done?  Different dialogue choices.  If the intent was for us to understand that the Templars can't touch us due to our money and status in the city, give us the ability to say so as Mage Hawke.  As well, take away some of the dialogue options that seem kind of rediculous.   Really Mage Hawke, you want to meet the Knight Commander of the Templars? An entire separate story / dialogue tree wouldn't be necessary, only an acknowledgement from Templars in certain situations that yes, they've got their eye on Mage Hawke.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 04 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

First of all, the speciality choice of Blood Mage needed to be removed from DA2, because choosing it and it having no impact is sort of ridiculous given the Blood Magic used for mind control connection to the main plot (reason for the Templar/Circle).

That said, I have no problem with an Apostate Mage Hawke and the main quest, just it needed to be explained early on. With some creativity they could have given a valid reason why Meredith allows Mage Hawke to not be taken to the circle with a Mage Only quest in Chapter 1. Similar to how you deal with the Cowled Wizards in Athlatka in BG2. It just takes a little time and creativity on the part of the developers, but...I guess that is asking too much.

Edited to Add: I think the Grand Cleric would have been a great vehicle to have this option, as she would probably be the ONLY person that would be able to keep Meredith and her goons from locking you away early on (pre-Champion Hawke when it is semi-explained why you're free).

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 04 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[aftohsix]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

First of all, the speciality choice of Blood Mage needed to be removed from DA2, because choosing it and it having no impact is sort of ridiculous given the Blood Magic used for mind control connection to the main plot (reason for the Templar/Circle).

That said, I have no problem with an Apostate Mage Hawke and the main quest, just it needed to be explained early on. With some creativity they could have given a valid reason why Meredith allows Mage Hawke to not be taken to the circle with a Mage Only quest in Chapter 1. Similar to how you deal with the Cowled Wizards in Athlatka in BG2. It just takes a little time and creativity on the part of the developers, but...I guess that is asking too much.

Edited to Add: I think the Grand Cleric would have been a great vehicle to have this option, as she would probably be the ONLY person that would be able to keep Meredith and her goons from locking you away early on (pre-Champion Hawke when it is semi-explained why you're free).

It's not asking too much if we're able to articulate constructively what was wrong with the way they did it and list out some good ideas for how it can be improved.  So far the discussion is going okay.

I agree with all it was done poorly but IMO they did it the only way they could feasibly do it.  They couldn't just take out the mage class.  Too many people would be angry about it.

Modifié par aftohsix, 04 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[Mavkiel]

Or adding a quest where you bribe a senior member of the guard. Or do a favor for someone in power. Either of those options would give you an out for being a mage.

[Rockpopple]

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Imagine, if months ago BioWare had come out with a presser saying, "Guess what, guys, we're taking our writing SO seriously with DA II that the only available classes will be the Warrior and the Rogue. ENJOY!"

They'd still be cleaning the blood off the streets.

[Ronin2006]

The OP strikes me as having quite a ridiculous argument and line of reasoning, and I'll try to explain why as briefly as possible.  However, as I really find this opinion terribly misguided, this may take a little while.

First, the groundwork where we draw the common ground.  I think we can agree on the following:  Bioware created the lore that established the tension between mages and templars.  They then created the option for the player to play as a mage in DA 2.  They then wrote the story for DA 2 which took place in a city sprawling with templars making it virtually impossible for a mage version of Hawke to be treated realistically within the game world.

Here is the problem.

Bioware created every part that led to this scenario.  They dug themselves into the corner and weren't clever enough to find a way out and in turn produce an immersive and realistic game out of it.  This was their job, and while it may have been difficult, they should have considered this before releasing the game.

It is absolutely never the player's fault if the game designers create something with such ludicrous plot holes and they shouldn't have to accept it.   Ultimately the game designer is supposed to have the ability to create a game that is relatively consistent in terms of storytelling.  If they can't do it, then they haven't done their job or they aren't up to it.  They didn't have to let the player play as a mage (though that would present it's own problems).  They didn't have to create the lore, and they certainly didn't have to base the second game almost entirely in a single city sprawling with templars.

As alluded to, there are many ways they could have avoided this, but ultimately it was their responsibility to find a way, and they didn't.  They could simply have written a different story and based the game somewhere else, but they chose this scenario, and ultimately the inconsistency is their own fault.

Either they should have known better before writing DA 2's story, or they could have done better with the actual story and gameplay.  You say that it's impossible from a game design perspective?  Well you really need to have a broader perspective.  The game didn't have to be designed in such a way.  It's story, it's setting and it's characters were not all pre-determined, only the lore was pre-determined, and they have every opportunity to tweak that lore anyway.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 04 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[flexxdk]

I understand why they chose this, yet it doesn't make that much of a sense to me.

Then again, I really would hate it to be jumped by a group of Templars whenever I turn around a corner. Would drive me bat**** insane, mainly resulting into pulling out my own hair and screaming "NEIN NEIN NEIN!".

It's for the best, I think. I do not like the idea of having to go through the process of luring your target into alleyways and stuff.

Ronin2006 wrote...
...only the lore was pre-determined, and they have every opportunity to tweak that lore anyway.

Wouldn't that lead to a possible outrage?

I mean, if the lore is different from the first game, wouldn't that just make the game look worse than it already is?

Modifié par Whacka, 04 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Talk's cheap. Takes money to buy whiskey.

Modifié par MelfinaofOutlawStar, 04 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

[Rockpopple]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Talk's cheap. Takes money to buy whiskey.

I am both scared and confused by this comment....

[flexxdk]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

Now this would probably work out pretty well. It still needs some polishing here and there, but it's a good start.