236 réponses à ce sujet

[Ronin2006]

Whacka wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...
...only the lore was pre-determined, and they have every opportunity to tweak that lore anyway.

Wouldn't that lead to a possible outrage?

I mean, if the lore is different from the first game, wouldn't that just make the game look worse than it already is?

Perhaps I could explain this a little more.  I didn't want my first post to be too long.

I'm not saying they should throw out any of the existing lore, but they can certainly add to it, and make whatever reason they like for it to be plausible for a mage Hawke to be walking around Kirkwall firing off spells.  So long as it's not inconsistent with the previously established lore.  Now it's hard for me to imagine how they could do this, but ultimately it's up to the storytellers to come up with a decent solution.

Anyway, the point is that ultimately Bioware are responsible for digging themselves into this mess and they, as the game designer should have been smart enough to get themselves out of it.  They didn't.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 04 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Rockpopple wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Talk's cheap. Takes money to buy whiskey.

I am both scared and confused by this comment....

Basically means you have nothing to back that statement up.

[corebit]

aftohsix wrote...

It's not asking too much if we're able to articulate constructively what was wrong with the way they did it and list out some good ideas for how it can be improved.  So far the discussion is going okay.

I agree with all it was done poorly but IMO they did it the only way they could feasibly do it.  They couldn't just take out the mage class.  Too many people would be angry about it.

Umm they did it in BG2, a game made over 10 years ago, why do you think it's so hard to implement it in DA2?

In BG2, you stole things from people's homes, you dealt with guards.
In BG2, you started casting spells willy-nilly in the streets, you dealt with the cowled wizards.

It's was sloppy writing and laziness by the devs plain and simple.

Modifié par corebit, 04 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Sauronych]

Baldur's Gate 2 had Athkatla, a city where magic was restricted, and it worked pretty well. So Bioware really has no excuse for not including a system similar to the Cowled Wizards in DA2. Well, besides their laziness.

Modifié par Sauronych, 04 avril 2011 - 07:20 .

[The_FenixV]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

It would of been better for sure, but the Harrowing wouldn't be realist, considering what happens after act 1. I think Meredith would just plunge her sword and kill the mage Hawke without hesitation because he is becoming popular with the Grand Cleric. 

[AkiKishi]

aftohsix wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Then you remove the Mage class from the game. Of course they won't do that. They would rather have a "broken pointless" Mage class than no mage class at all.

Exactly.  To me it seems either have no mage or have a non-reactive world to it.

And if this was the best way for them to do it how can this be a fair complaint?

Anyways I feel it's worth discussing.  Maybe we'll come up with some good ideas for Bioware to implement in a future game.

Because you don't write a story like that without taking such things into account. The cowled order from BGII made it very clear you were playing a mage and that you were not supposed to be using magic.

Writing a story based around Templars and Mages then giving the PC mage carte blanche to do what he likes with magic  just comes across as lazy.

Not mine but this sums it up nicely.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

The_FenixV wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

It would of been better for sure, but the Harrowing wouldn't be realist, considering what happens after act 1. I think Meredith would just plunge her sword and kill the mage Hawke without hesitation because he is becoming popular with the Grand Cleric. 

It's a good start at least but the Grand Cleric wouldn't take sides.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Whacka wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

Now this would probably work out pretty well. It still needs some polishing here and there, but it's a good start.

Yeah, definitely would need some polishing, but I think it would need to involve getting on the Grand Cleric's good side by saving her or the chantry in some way, the player going through the Harrowing voluntarily, and then the Templars saying we'll be watching you closely.  After that, just a few tweaks to the dialogue here and there and really only in the 1st and 2nd Acts; from the end of the 2nd Act onwards everyone knows you're an Apostate anyway and mostly reacts as they should.

[Lumikki]

Mostly what did bother me in mage lore, was that companions and some npcs around me act like there is something to be feared as been mage. How ever, player could still act like God in everywhere and fear nothing at all. There was no reason to fear anyting even when been mage, because been mage class was ignored. It's conflict how to play mage and how to lore is setup.

How to fix it? That's the question what OP is asking.

You can't really fix it, because hole story would have to be different for mage player. That would have been two seperated stories. Mage and not mage story. Problem was that story was build around templar and mage conflict. If it would be something totally different, then conflict would not been so big.

How ever, saying that it should not bother people, isn't any better than saying what else they could have done? How about have story what isn't about mage (class) conflict based?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[Rockpopple]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Talk's cheap. Takes money to buy whiskey.

I am both scared and confused by this comment....

Basically means you have nothing to back that statement up.

Sigh. Alright, so I said not one person here would be cool with that. OBVIOUSLY I was using hyperbole. I'm sure you could find at least one person who'd be into anything. Goat sex, for example. Usually the guy who'd be into no mage class would also be... anyway, I'll leave my mea culpa at that.

[Kimberly Shaw]

The_FenixV wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

It would of been better for sure, but the Harrowing wouldn't be realist, considering what happens after act 1. I think Meredith would just plunge her sword and kill the mage Hawke without hesitation because he is becoming popular with the Grand Cleric. 

That's where you would need the Grand Cleric to stop Meredith (who isn't in the Idol's throws at this point so would listen. The Grand Cleric is the ONLY one I think who could stop Meredith from plungeing her sword into an Apostate.  That's why you'd need the quest to involve getting the Grand Cleric to help you.

[Kimberly Shaw]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

It would of been better for sure, but the Harrowing wouldn't be realist, considering what happens after act 1. I think Meredith would just plunge her sword and kill the mage Hawke without hesitation because he is becoming popular with the Grand Cleric. 

It's a good start at least but the Grand Cleric wouldn't take sides.

No, she wouldn't take sides and would seek a compromise between letting you free and imprisoning you in the Circle, which to me would be 1) going through the Harrowing voluntarily and 2) allowed to be under Templar watch.  I don't know. Not perfect, but I'm an accountant, not a game designer.  Just it would make more sense than what they gave us, is what I'm trying to say. And it took me only a few minutes to think of...

[The_FenixV]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

It would of been better for sure, but the Harrowing wouldn't be realist, considering what happens after act 1. I think Meredith would just plunge her sword and kill the mage Hawke without hesitation because he is becoming popular with the Grand Cleric. 

That's where you would need the Grand Cleric to stop Meredith (who isn't in the Idol's throws at this point so would listen. The Grand Cleric is the ONLY one I think who could stop Meredith from plungeing her sword into an Apostate.  That's why you'd need the quest to involve getting the Grand Cleric to help you.

Hmm yes I could definitively see that working, it would of made the Grand Cleric a more important character as well. Though I also think Meredith would willingly hire assassins to kill Hawke, you never know with a psycho templar. 

[sphinxess]

In Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines draining someone brought the police out in force if you were spotted
In BG2 you fought with no magic until you could purchase a license
In DA2 ......

If you are spotted by Templars fighting in anywhere but the gallows or hightown they attack too as a third group - after a few encounters they stop going to to lowtown/the docks .- more Meredith paranoia yea!
Have a hidden exit in your uncles hovel for more reality - I always assumed Merrill and Anders have one.
Give nobles an exception to the rule on going to the circle so once Hawke buys the estate back...Betheny could be handled by saying she wants to stay a few years
Have Cullen in your debt for saving his life on the coast -

I mean really it doesn't even have to be constant - just a few encounters to show its not being ignored.....

I love the grand cleric idea - maybe she just likes to talk to Hawke and company - seems like the kind if silly thing she might actually make into a order to Meredith to stop picking on Hawke and company

Modifié par sphinxess, 04 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Rockpopple]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

Bethany wouldn't just give up and join the Circle. She's lived her entire life avoiding the Circle, she's terrified of the Circle. There's no way she'd drop everything and go to a place she thinks is the worst place in the world just because she wanted to help some people out. Anders would be FAR more likely to do this. Bethany would only join the Circle if her family was threatened and... well this is a non-spoiler thread.

Anyway, there's also no way the Grand Cleric would take Hawke in as an advisor. First of all, doing so would completely abort the Expedition quest. There'd be no need. 2nd, Hawke would be an Apostate. The mandate is clear. Look at that dolt Wesley in the beginning. He's being slaughtered by Darkspawn, is saved at the last moment by Hawke and/or Bethany, and he's STILL ready to take them in. It's in their braincells at this moment. Being a Qunari isn't the same as being a Mage. In Kirkwall, being a Mage is FAR worse, and in Kirkwall the GC wouldn't just let an Apostate off the hook after saving her life, especially since in Thedas (at the time) the Circle was seen as a KINDNESS. A way to save Mages from themselves. Only Mages and their families saw it as a punishment.

The truth is, the moment BioWare decided to center the story around Mages vs Templars, they were doomed. They either had to take the Mage class out completely, re-work the story completely for Mage playhtroughs, or live with the plot holes. They chose the 3rd door.

[Yakko77]

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

[kaimanaMM]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

My take would be, your final quest as a smuggler or mercenary at the end of the 1 year time jump in Act 1 is something to do with the chantry. It seems a mundane job but you expose/foil a plot to poison the clergy and the Grand Cleric. Everyone finds out you are a mage in the process. Meredith rushes in to take you to the circle, but the Grand Cleric intervenes and says you are to be free as her advisor, so long as you agree to go through the harrowing (quick fade battle, use same Fade as the Fenreil quest).

If you are not mage Hawke, same play through except Bethany instead of Hawke. After Act 1, with certain events, they take Bethany to the cirlce anyway, because Bethany thinks she'd rather live in the Circle and help.

This could have introduced the players to Meredith and Orsino a little bit as well, given some much needed introduction to their characters before end of Act 2 and Act 3.

Thoughts?

This is pretty simliar to what my husband was suggesting and I dig the idea.

I think Mage Hawke fits decently within the story, but there is ultimately no explanation or consequence.  Which is difficult to swallow at times given how many times we're told how Hawke's life has been due to being a mage and given the way things are in Kirkwall.  

[AkiKishi]

Yakko77 wrote...

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

Circle mages don't wander around. In DA it made sense, as a Warden in time of blight you are "above the law". In DA2 it makes no sense, and for a "plot" that is written around Mage/Templar conflict , that just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

[Rockpopple]

Edit: Bob's right. Forgot. Mages are locked into their towers. Sucks to be them.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 04 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

Circle mages don't wander around. In DA it made sense, as a Warden in time of blight you are "above the law". In DA2 it makes no sense, and for a "plot" that is written around Mage/Templar conflict , that just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

[Kimberly Shaw]

In Kirkwall, being a Mage is FAR worse, and in Kirkwall the GC wouldn't just let an Apostate off the hook after saving her life, especially since in Thedas (at the time) the Circle was seen as a KINDNESS. A way to save Mages from themselves. Only Mages and their families saw it as a punishment.

Hmm well the game sort of invalidates this by having you a free Apostate in Act 3 with Merdeith and the Grand Cleric knowing all about you.

All I'm saying is they could have had a quest in Act 1 that made you have the favor of the Grand Cleric early on, giving you the same freedom you enjoy in Act 3 but for the whole game.

[Tekman9]

ive said it before and ill say it agian. I dont think being a mage in game has anywhere near the consequences that the cannon/lore would have you believe.

Why make a game world were mages are persecuted or whatever, if it never really happens.....

[aftohsix]

Ronin2006 wrote...

The OP strikes me as having quite a ridiculous argument and line of reasoning, and I'll try to explain why as briefly as possible.  However, as I really find this opinion terribly misguided, this may take a little while.

And you refuted my point how?

Your whole conclusion is "Bioware should have written a different story."  My whole post is that given the framework we have Bioware made it work the one way they realistically could.

Modifié par aftohsix, 04 avril 2011 - 07:48 .

[Rockpopple]

Kimberly Shaw, we both can't say what happens, but by Act III Hawke becomes far more than a Mage to the people of Kirkwall, and it becomes political suicide to even look at her funny.

If Hawke had to do something as grand as he did in Act III, in Act I... that'd kill the flow of the game. You're supposed to work your way up to being a hero, not start off as one.

I like the game, a lot. But I agree that BioWare screwed the pooch on this one. If they were gonna make the Mage class available, they needed to seriously tweak the Mage playthrough at the planning stages. It's practically too late, now.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

See being a mage would have worked if you actually fled Kirkwall prior to the ending. Hell, DA:O took place in the whole of Fereldan. The Free Marches is a big area that Bioware only utilized a square foot of. So there's my idea. At some point you have to flee Kirkwall. Perhaps Sebastian should have been included as part of the game instead of DLC and gives you refuge in Starkhaven. You leave your mother behind with the estate, that gives you motive to return when things take a turn for the worse.