236 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...
Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

Warden in time of blight.



Anything goes to defeat the Archdemon.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 avril 2011 - 07:47 .

[PlumPaul93]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

Circle mages don't wander around. In DA it made sense, as a Warden in time of blight you are "above the law". In DA2 it makes no sense, and for a "plot" that is written around Mage/Templar conflict , that just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

Just because one games logic is bad in some areas doesn't excuse the fact that logic is bad regarding DA2, Heck lets excuse all problems regarding DA2 just because other games did it

[Rockpopple]

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

EDIT: Bob, Wynne would go out of her way say how she didn't approve of the Warden having sex with people, but she didn't say word ONE about him being a BLOOD MAGE. Also, Wynne is no Warden. She clearly has her convictions, seeing as she never missed an opportunity to "tut tut" Blood Magic.

So sorry, Blight or no Blight, BioWare's been having this problem since at least DA:O

Modifié par Rockpopple, 04 avril 2011 - 07:50 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Rockpopple wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

Which makes it even worse that problems like this aren't fixed in subsequent releases.

Modifié par MelfinaofOutlawStar, 04 avril 2011 - 07:50 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

If Hawke had to do something as grand as he did in Act III, in Act I... that'd kill the flow of the game. You're supposed to work your way up to being a hero, not start off as one.

I don't think it would. The massively grand heroic act of saving the Grand Cleric from poisoning or assasination or whatever would just negate that you are an Apostate or harboring Bethany, making it a net neutral and leaving you in the same position as before.

Then when later events happen, the secret that you're a mage or you harbored a mage has already been taken into account and you still did this great thing, making you a Champion.

Agree to disagree on this, I think it could have been implemented without much change to what we have; you don't. We both agree it was handled badly. I can live with that.

I think it would have been better than what they did and at least try to have an explanation.

[The_FenixV]

Rockpopple wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

Actually at first they gave the option that if you dwell in blood magic that in the circle quest, Wynne says you are a blood mage, and when that happens you'd have no choice but to fight First Enchanter Irwing and all the templars. Though seems like the Bioware team just cast that idea aside and changed it. 

[PlumPaul93]

Rockpopple wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

EDIT: Bob, Wynne would go out of her way say how she didn't approve of the Warden having sex with people, but she didn't say word ONE about him being a BLOOD MAGE.

So sorry, Blight or no Blight, BioWare's been having this problem since at least DA:O

ooh I see because DAO did it, it excuses DA2

[Yakko77]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

Circle mages don't wander around. In DA it made sense, as a Warden in time of blight you are "above the law". In DA2 it makes no sense, and for a "plot" that is written around Mage/Templar conflict , that just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

I  think I  saw some mages wandering the Gallows area (which is the general area where the Kirkwall Circle Tower is located IIRC)  but otherwise I  don't recall seeing too many (if any) mages in other areas... other than blood mages trying to kill me or "normal" mages trying to escape Kirkwall of course.

Good points overall though.  I hadn't really considered the lack of reaction my mage Hawke gets but now that I  think about it it does seem a bit..... off.

Modifié par Yakko77, 04 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[Persephone]

The_FenixV wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

Actually at first they gave the option that if you dwell in blood magic that in the circle quest, Wynne says you are a blood mage, and when that happens you'd have no choice but to fight First Enchanter Irwing and all the templars. Though seems like the Bioware team just cast that idea aside and changed it. 

Yes, because then you'd end up with no recruited help and the whole Tower quest would have become obsolete. Easy as that.

[Rockpopple]

I'm sorry folks, where again did I say because it happened in DA:O, it's okay for it to happen in DA II?

I'll go ahead and wait.

...

...

Oh, nothing?

Suspected as much.

HIGH FIVES!


Kimberly Shaw: I'm sorry, but if Hawke did something to save the GC in Act I, he wouldn't be the nobody he was during that Act. He'd be huge, *snicker* and he'd just be getting bigger. I'm sure he'd like that, but it'd ruin the "rags-to-riches" story.

Anyway, it's a moot point. What's done is done.

[Kimberly Shaw]

OR - lock down spells in daylight in Kirkwall main areas until end Chapter 2. Have the majority of combat take place at night, without witnesses. Heck..they kinda do that anyway. Change the dialogue with Cullen to reflect you're a mage when you save him. That step alone would help out.

[Ronin2006]

aftohsix wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

The OP strikes me as having quite a ridiculous argument and line of reasoning, and I'll try to explain why as briefly as possible.  However, as I really find this opinion terribly misguided, this may take a little while.

And you refuted my point how?

Read it again, .... slowly. 

How do I phrase this as simply as possible so that even you can understand?

Your opinion is grounded almost entirely on the notion that Bioware had no choice but to address the mage situation in this way given the game's storyline, setting and lore.  But Bioware did not have to write the setting or the storyline in such a way that they would have this problem.

Everything that led to this problem was their own creation.  It's nobody elses fault but their own, and there are virtually limitless ways that they, from the very start of the game's development, could have avoided this problem.

Simple enough yet?

[Persephone]

Rockpopple wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Makes as much sense as teaching Wynne blood magic and she doesn't mind at all or using blood magic in DAO and nobody objecting at all.

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

EDIT: Bob, Wynne would go out of her way say how she didn't approve of the Warden having sex with people, but she didn't say word ONE about him being a BLOOD MAGE. Also, Wynne is no Warden. She clearly has her convictions, seeing as she never missed an opportunity to "tut tut" Blood Magic.

So sorry, Blight or no Blight, BioWare's been having this problem since at least DA:O

It's a Lore related thing. If you're determined on finding flaws like this you'll find them in ANY RPG. You should have to be diligent about it. In the end, it doesn't matter to me, be it in DAO or DA2.

[AkiKishi]

Yakko77 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

I wonder how people can tell just by looking at Hawke or Bethany that they're Apostates. Sure, the robes and staff clearly identify them as mages but how can one tell just by looking that they're not part of the Circle?

Maybe there's a secret handshake or something.

Circle mages don't wander around. In DA it made sense, as a Warden in time of blight you are "above the law". In DA2 it makes no sense, and for a "plot" that is written around Mage/Templar conflict , that just stretches credibility beyond breaking point.

I  think I  saw some mages wandering the Gallows area (which is the general area where the Kirkwall Circle Tower is located IIRC)  but otherwise I  don't recall seeing too many (if any) mages in other areas... other than blood mages trying to kill me or "normal" mages trying to escape Kirkwall of course.

Good points overall though.  I hadn't really considered the lack of reaction my mage Hawke gets but now that I  think about it it does seem a bit..... off.

Good point

The Gallows is the equivelent of the circle tower. I suppose the open area would be the "exercise yard"

[Kimberly Shaw]

Rockpopple wrote...
it'd ruin the "rags-to-riches" story.

I'd rather them "ruin" the rags-to-riches story which isn't that great to begin with than ruin the entire lore of the game story.

[corebit]

Rockpopple wrote...

YES! THIS!

In fact, this makes the arguement for not only being unable to change your companions armor/weapons, but being unable to change their SKILLS. Of course you can, in DAII, but really, the Wynne example is the BEST example of how this can blow up in your face.

Bottom line: DA:O wasn't without many of the same problems present in DA II.

Good freakin' catch, Persephone. No one had brought it up in this thread yet.

EDIT: Bob, Wynne would go out of her way say how she didn't approve of the Warden having sex with people, but she didn't say word ONE about him being a BLOOD MAGE. Also, Wynne is no Warden. She clearly has her convictions, seeing as she never missed an opportunity to "tut tut" Blood Magic.

So sorry, Blight or no Blight, BioWare's been having this problem since at least DA:O

Not even close. The DAO main plot doesn't revolve so much around mages and templars like DA2. Respeccing Wynne to blood mage could easily be explained in a fair number of ways inside DAO's universe and still remain plausible. The main goal in the original was to stop the blight at all costs and did not matter if you brought blood mages or templars or Carta thugs or lowly city elves.

Modifié par corebit, 04 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[aftohsix]

Ronin2006 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

The OP strikes me as having quite a ridiculous argument and line of reasoning, and I'll try to explain why as briefly as possible.  However, as I really find this opinion terribly misguided, this may take a little while.

And you refuted my point how?

Read it again, .... slowly. 

How do I phrase this as simply as possible so that even you can understand?

Your opinion is grounded almost entirely on the notion that Bioware had no choice but to address the mage situation in this way given the game's storyline, setting and lore.  But Bioware did not have to write the setting or the storyline in such a way that they would have this problem.

Everything that led to this problem was their own creation.  It's nobody elses fault but their own, and there are virtually limitless ways that they, from the very start of the game's development, could have avoided this problem.

Simple enough yet?

Everyone else has been able to remain civil in this discussion except you.  Please attempt it or I'll be forced to report you.

[AkiKishi]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
it'd ruin the "rags-to-riches" story.

I'd rather them "ruin" the rags-to-riches story which isn't that great to begin with than ruin the entire lore of the game story.

Did they think no one would notice ?

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

See being a mage would have worked if you actually fled Kirkwall prior to the ending. Hell, DA:O took place in the whole of Fereldan. The Free Marches is a big area that Bioware only utilized a square foot of. So there's my idea. At some point you have to flee Kirkwall. Perhaps Sebastian should have been included as part of the game instead of DLC and gives you refuge in Starkhaven. You leave your mother behind with the estate, that gives you motive to return when things take a turn for the worse.

Repost.

[Rockpopple]

Ronin2006 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

The OP strikes me as having quite a ridiculous argument and line of reasoning, and I'll try to explain why as briefly as possible.  However, as I really find this opinion terribly misguided, this may take a little while.

And you refuted my point how?

Read it again, .... slowly. 

How do I phrase this as simply as possible so that even you can understand?

Your opinion is grounded almost entirely on the notion that Bioware had no choice but to address the mage situation in this way given the game's storyline, setting and lore.  But Bioware did not have to write the setting or the storyline in such a way that they would have this problem.

Everything that led to this problem was their own creation.  It's nobody elses fault but their own, and there are virtually limitless ways that they, from the very start of the game's development, could have avoided this problem.

Simple enough yet?

Wow, dude. Bring it down. You're at a 10 and you need to be at a 5, maybe a 6. 

[tanerb123]

i think ronin is right. they should have thought about it while writing the mage vs templar story line.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Ronin makes a great point. Just a little too agressively. I'd love to hear Bioware's response to some of the thoughts in this thread.

[Yakko77]

BobSmith101 wrote...


The Gallows is the equivelent of the circle tower. I suppose the open area would be the "exercise yard"

Fitting.  Given it's past history and what it more or less evolves into throughout the course of a game which is essentially a prison... or depending on your POV and how you view the Circle, it always was a prison for mages.

[cljqnsnyc]

OP.....

It's a good opinion but a poor excuse. Take for instance these:

1. Wesley

Wesley is a Templar. At the very beginning of the game he sets the stage for all that is to come. By this I mean how many will blatantly overlook the fact that you are a mage. In a game where the conflict between mages and templars is a central theme, this is unacceptable. Either Hawke matters or he doesn't. The situation cannot be had both ways. Wesley and Aveline come across the Hawke family. Wesley looks past you..mage Hawke...to your sister, mage Bethany, and says "Apostate!" Singular. Now, Hawke being a mage cannot matter in some areas then be relavant in others? Poor excuse. This for me is the hallmark of an uneven story.

2. Cullen

Cullen. To all who have played DA:O, we are very familiar with Cullen and his feelings about mages. He even went as far to accuse the First Enchanter himself, Irving, of being a blood mage in disguise! Paranoid! You get the idea. Anyway, on a few occasions he has conversations with mage Hawke, one of which takes place directly after a confrontation with demons. He is able to witness first hand the fact that you are indeed a mage, templar or not. Once the battle is over he begins to generalize all mages as being dangerous, therefore cannot be trusted and should be confined. To this mage Hawke himself responds "I have friends who are mages, should they be locked up as well?' What? Is this how a mage responds to a question about mages? No. Another example of a glaring inconsistency which breaks immersion...at least it did for me.

On another occasion Cullen says this to mage Hawke..."Mages can't be trusted..they are not like YOU or me!" What? As I said before, in a story where this is a central theme, it is inexcusable to have such plot holes and inconsistencies. If we are to accept mage Hawke as being irrelevant in some cases and central in others, it more or less throws immersion out the window.

So, your point is good for argument sake but it is a very poor excuse in a story. If you were reading a novel or watching a movie, being asked to accept your theory would effectively destroy the narrative in both.

For me, it just doesn't work. No excuse.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 04 avril 2011 - 08:25 .

[Lellandra]

I liked Kimberly 's idea of saving the grand cleric at the end of act 1. Anything would've made more sense than ignoring it completely. But her idea is pretty good.

unfortunately it's a moot point now since I seriously doubt they'll patch something like this in the game.

Maybe the discussion is being read and they'll be more careful in DA3.