236 réponses à ce sujet

[zambingo]

My two cents: SPOILERS

At the arrival to Kirkwall the PC sides with either the Smugglers or Mercenaries. In conversations with them you are told they can keep you (if you're a mage or Bethany if you aren't) safe for at least your year of servitude, no promises afterwards. That right there is all we should need to know, at least for a bit, as to why our Mage PC or Bethany are "safe".

Shortly into Act 1 the PC makes acquaintance with a couple of Sympathetic Templars (Emeric and Thrask). The PC has also met Varric at this point as well. Later in the game, at the beginning of Act 2, a point is made to show Varric greasing wheels to keep Anders safe. It can be safely assumed that our good buddy has been doing the same for a Mage PC and of course had been doing the same for Bethany.

Given those events it is clearly evident that there are going-ons behind the scenes by the PC's friends and acquaintances to keep them safe... or at least incredibly lower on the threat radar.

As the first Act of the game progresses the PC becomes more and more of a folkhero to the lower classes of Kirkwall. As you walk thru the lower parts of the city NPCs will sometimes recognize you in awe. In this same first Act of the game the PC becomes favored by the Viscount after the PC rescues his son from being kidnapped. Undoubtedly this quest's ramifications alone would severely hamper any Templars idea of taking down our Mage PC or Bethany.

As Act 2 progresses our PC has surpassed folkhero status with the lower classes of Kirkwall and now is a living legend within the City. Our PC has friends and contacts in all parts of the city. Then by Act 2's end we literally become the city's savior, it's Champion, by defeating the Qunari.

As Act 3 starts Varric explains our PC's status is so strong in the city that even Meredith knows the folly it would be try to take us down.

In short: NO SPOILERS

BioWare did craft a storyline that gave reasonable doubt as to why a Mage PC or Bethany can exist within Kirkwall without being touched. You just have to pay attention to the game.

Modifié par zambingo, 04 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[Yakko77]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

See I felt Hawke was an observer with bad timing. The affairs of the ungrateful peoples of Kirkwall no longer concerned me partway through I often wondered why I should stay.>_<

By the end I sort of wanted to channel my inner Eric Cartman and say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  but it made us chose from two sides.  Ah well, my mage Hawke will stand up for the mages I  guess as the mages annoy me slightly less than the Templars.

[Yakko77]

Rockpopple wrote...

Personally I like that Hawke's not the uber-hero like Shepard or the Savior of All Mankind like the Warden. I like that s/he's sometimes a selfish pickle who just wants to get by and who gets swept up in big events, rather than cause them.

But I can see the criticism of those that didn't like that.

Yeah, I  find myself liking the everyman type of hero vs. the destined from the start hero too.

[Zanallen]

Maverick827 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw thinks we're all idiots, yet he probably has never even touched a book in his entire life.Want proof? See sig.

Mike is actually quite correct here.

Textual dialog is often very bad at conveying certain emotions. Within prose, there is (more often than not, in this genre) an omniscient narrator offering a much greater insight into a scene and its players, and thus it is much easier to convey whether a piece of dialog is sarcastic or sincere.

It is much more appropriate to compare the writing in these types of games with that of a screenplay in which, if you were not aware, writers often include parentheticals. Parentheticals are one-to-three word descriptions about the way in which the following line should be read. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they were the inspiration for the icon system we have now.

Hush now. You can't argue with them. Just let them assume Mike has never read a book and was in no way referring to written dialogue within the game; the dialogue that comes with no qualifying information that would allow the reader to infer tone or intent.

[The_FenixV]

Yakko77 wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

See I felt Hawke was an observer with bad timing. The affairs of the ungrateful peoples of Kirkwall no longer concerned me partway through I often wondered why I should stay.>_<

By the end I sort of wanted to channel my inner Eric Cartman and say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  but it made us chose from two sides.  Ah well, my mage Hawke will stand up for the mages I  guess as the mages annoy me slightly less than the Templars.

Haha I wish my character could just go "F you both, Kirkwall is mine, if you don't like it, I kill you with my magic foo" But sadly we weren't giving that option, but I don't mind, working on a mage who will side with the templars xD 

[zambingo]

Yakko77 wrote...
By the end I sort of wanted to channel my inner Eric Cartman and say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  but it made us chose from two sides.

Yes! Exactly my feelings too. I like DA2 even with it's flaws... and that is one of them.

We should have been given a third option. Which is: Leave. With Aveline and her Guard's help our PC could escape to the Wounded Coast with as many nobles and various classes of citizens as we can lead there. Let the other two sides kill each other, BioWare still gets the event they want canonized, and our PC would have made a decision that both still makes the PC 1. notorious 2. beloved. It's just in this option the people of Kirkwall love us... as we acted as their true Champion.

[MrTijger]

Yakko77 wrote...

Yeah, I  find myself liking the everyman type of hero vs. the destined from the start hero too.

My wife and I both said that same thing to each other, DA 2 was more human, more grey (except for the last choice, yeah yeah), nobody was clean except perhaps Sebastian but even he turned to be capable of murder.

[The_FenixV]

Yakko77 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Personally I like that Hawke's not the uber-hero like Shepard or the Savior of All Mankind like the Warden. I like that s/he's sometimes a selfish pickle who just wants to get by and who gets swept up in big events, rather than cause them.

But I can see the criticism of those that didn't like that.

Yeah, I  find myself liking the everyman type of hero vs. the destined from the start hero too.

I actually liked that too, it was refreshing compared to all the other stories where you have to beat the big bad. I think the reason people don't like playing as a human, is because in real life we are a flawed race, so are they in games and movies. Look at Isildur for example from LOTR. It's perhaps because they know they are selfish and in a way Hawke's story could be considered selfish since he is trying to have a name for himself and not necessarily save the world. 

[AkiKishi]

The theory is nice but since they could only do it by making you sit out 3 years while the situations got to the point where you could do nothing but fail. Not really going to give them points for that.

Want to see a real everyday character ? Play Atelier Rorona.

[Deified Data]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it.

Hah, so true. The only thing left to do it whine.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

See I felt Hawke was an observer with bad timing. The affairs of the ungrateful peoples of Kirkwall no longer concerned me partway through I often wondered why I should stay.>_<

There should have been neutral option in the game where Hawke just says "F this and F that and F all of you I'm getting the F outta here ... hey Varric I bet we can make some serious coin in OrlIais ..."

Then when the seeker is talking to Varric he just explains that Hawke didn't want to have anything to do with anything and up and left and was used as a scapegoat for the incidences that occurred. This would have been quite a short playthrough but I would dig the option.

One of the main problems with these games is that they try to have choices for the plot but still show the entirety of the game to every player regardless of their choices. So the choices have to be simple variations of the same pathway. Not that it isn't fun but I would like to see an RPG with real divergent pathways.

"Kirkwall? I wasn't even there man."

[Kimberly Shaw]

Given those events it is clearly evident that there are going-ons behind the scenes by the PC's friends and acquaintances to keep them safe... or at least incredibly lower on the threat radar.

Given the entire main plot of the game is Mage v Templars and free mages escaping from Meredith, you don't find it a odd for the designers to make this all done "behind the scenes" and force the player to conjecture that it is happening rather than make a point of telling us?

I don't think your reasoning is poor, it's quite good actually. But none of it should be "behind the scenes". Varric should be telling Mage Hawke that he will keep the Templars off with bribes/extortion what have you (or off Bethany in Act 1).

[takfar]

This

CitizenThom wrote...

In Shadows of Amn (BG2), they implemented culturally forbidden magic pretty well.

And this

With some creativity they could have given a valid reason why Meredith
allows Mage Hawke to not be taken to the circle with a Mage Only quest
in Chapter 1. Similar to how you deal with the Cowled Wizards in
Athlatka in BG2. It just takes a little time and creativity on the part
of the developers, but...I guess that is asking too much.

They were just effin' lazy with DA2. A lot of classic RPGs had very clear behavior limitations (and consequences forinfringing them). Anyone remember trying to steal stuff on Ultima VIII?

Laws and consequences are a big part of world-building, and if they've created a world with a culture as full of repression and prejudice as they did in the DA franchise, it's silly, lazy, and inexcusable, as well as a huge waste of potential, not to have it affect gameplay. Otherwise, it's just negligible "fluff" to a game of statistics.

Soon enough, for the sake of streamlining, they might as well ditch the story (much like they did with "junk" loot found in the game), and go for a "here's the monsters. kill them" theme. Which is fine in and on itself, I loved the old Gauntlet and Golden Axe games... it's just not an RPG.

And now I want to play BG2 again.

Modifié par takfar, 05 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[hakwea]

The problem is that a story is ignoring parts of the story just to tell that story. DA:O got around it because you were drafted as a grey warden. DA2 just flat out ignores it. And the time that you do meet the most powerful templar it is brushed off.

Why create a story that requires such things, when you will just ignore it? Gameplay isn't a valid excuse when the story is purposefully written and ignored/contradicted in such vast ways. Bioware dropped the ball by making the Templar vs Circle conflict so large in DA2 yet not addressing a player mage better

[Alamar2078]

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Imagine, if months ago BioWare had come out with a presser saying, "Guess what, guys, we're taking our writing SO seriously with DA II that the only available classes will be the Warrior and the Rogue. ENJOY!"

They'd still be cleaning the blood off the streets.

Why not just find a way to recycle the same reason why you weren't touched in DA:O .... the Gray Wardens could draft you then you're untouchable while you're on Warden business.   IMHO this would have been the easy way out.

Otherwise you would have to spend A1 hiding and/or doing enough favors for the powers that be to keep you [and your kin] out of the Gallows or similar.

EDIT:  Crap I didn't notice the post in front of mine saying the exact same thing ...

Modifié par Alamar2078, 05 avril 2011 - 01:36 .

[The_FenixV]

takfar wrote...

This

CitizenThom wrote...

In Shadows of Amn (BG2), they implemented culturally forbidden magic pretty well.

And this

With some creativity they could have given a valid reason why Meredith
allows Mage Hawke to not be taken to the circle with a Mage Only quest
in Chapter 1. Similar to how you deal with the Cowled Wizards in
Athlatka in BG2. It just takes a little time and creativity on the part
of the developers, but...I guess that is asking too much.

They were just effin' lazy with DA2. A lot of classic RPGs had very clear behavior limitations (and consequences forinfringing them). Anyone remember trying to steal stuff on Ultima VIII?

Laws and consequences are a big part of world-building, and if they've created a world with a culture as full of repression and prejudice as they did in the DA franchise, it's silly, lazy, and inexcusable, as well as a huge waste of potential, not to have it affect gameplay. Otherwise, it's just negligible "fluff" to a game of statistics.

Soon enough, for the sake of streamlining, they might as well ditch the story (much like they did with "junk" loot found in the game), and go for a "here's the monsters. kill them" theme. Which is fine in and on itself, I loved the old Gauntlet and Golden Axe games... it's just not an RPG.

And now I want to play BG2 again.

Same could be said for a certain event in Origins that they deleted, that if you are blood mage, Wynne would tell it to Irwing, and then you'd have to fight Wynne, Irwing and all the templars, which results in you spending time in the tower for no reason at all. Even though they deleted it, I think they should of implemented that just for sense of realism. 

[Pyrate_d]

they could have easily put in a quest for mages where you bribe or otherwise convince templars to leave you alone

it's just laziness/lack of time

as for the warden, I think it's pretty much accepted that some warden mages use blood magic and there's nothing the templars can really do about it

[The_FenixV]

Pyrate_d wrote...

they could have easily put in a quest for mages where you bribe or otherwise convince templars to leave you alone

it's just laziness/lack of time

as for the warden, I think it's pretty much accepted that some warden mages use blood magic and there's nothing the templars can really do about it

Wynne would disagree so would the templars even if you are a mage. Of course they did the thing where Wynne would denounce you as a blood mage and every templar and irwing and wynne would attack you. It made sense though it also made the tower useless but I would of accepted that. Every game has flaws it's only natural. 

[Pyrate_d]

The_FenixV wrote...

Wynne would disagree so would the templars even if you are a mage. Of course they did the thing where Wynne would denounce you as a blood mage and every templar and irwing and wynne would attack you. It made sense though it also made the tower useless but I would of accepted that. Every game has flaws it's only natural. 

idk, I remember a conversation where Duncan basically says that blood magic is tolerated by the wardens, and I just can't see the templars challenging the wardens, at least not legally. The mage origin basically showed that duncan can recruit you even if you've helped a blood mage escape

citing a scene that was removed doesn't really help your case

Modifié par Pyrate_d, 05 avril 2011 - 03:17 .

[The_FenixV]

Pyrate_d wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

Wynne would disagree so would the templars even if you are a mage. Of course they did the thing where Wynne would denounce you as a blood mage and every templar and irwing and wynne would attack you. It made sense though it also made the tower useless but I would of accepted that. Every game has flaws it's only natural. 

idk, I remember a conversation where Duncan basically says that blood magic is tolerated by the wardens, and I just can't see the templars challenging the wardens, at least not legally. The mage origin basically showed that duncan can recruit you even if you've helped a blood mage escape

citing a scene that was removed doesn't really help your case

I do think the templars would of still attacked, I would of preferred that actually. Every act should have a consequence I felt there wasn't enough consequence with blood magic, you could even make Wynne into a blood mage which goes against her beliefs. Plus the blood mage spec wasn't exciting as Jowan showed it in the cinematic. Both games fail in the blood mage area. 

[Pyrate_d]

they could have done it better in DAO (a conversation with Wynne/Alistair would have been nice) but I don't really feel like they failed

blood magic is a small part of the DAO, but a massive part of DA2

[The_FenixV]

Pyrate_d wrote...

they could have done it better in DAO (a conversation with Wynne/Alistair would have been nice) but I don't really feel like they failed

blood magic is a small part of the DAO, but a massive part of DA2

Small but important part in DAO don't forget that. but what I meant by they both failed, I meant when the character uses the blood magic, the spells and all that plus the fact that we are the only ones who can't summon demons. 

[elimccl]

Didn't read this massive thread, but just responding to the OP:

The problem isn't "Templars don't react to me being a mage!" The problem is "the writers chose this particular story even though they fully knew it would cause major leaps in basic logic that people would complain about!" See, there's a lot of things you could have done to the game and story to get around this. DA2 attempts nothing to resolve it.

[Scottish90000]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Except in the world of Kirkwall, there is absolutely no way a Mage of Hawke's abilities would not be either killed, Tranquilled or forced into the Circle for life. No way. There's no explanation that would have made any sense.

And to not have a Mage class in the game? I'll tell you who wouldn't have it: EVERYONE. Not ONE person here would be cool with the Mage class being deleted from the game.

Talk's cheap. Takes money to buy whiskey.

Are you from the Ozarks by chance? My grandpa used to say this a lot.

[cljqnsnyc]

zambingo wrote...

My two cents: SPOILERS

At the arrival to Kirkwall the PC sides with either the Smugglers or Mercenaries. In conversations with them you are told they can keep you (if you're a mage or Bethany if you aren't) safe for at least your year of servitude, no promises afterwards. That right there is all we should need to know, at least for a bit, as to why our Mage PC or Bethany are "safe".

Shortly into Act 1 the PC makes acquaintance with a couple of Sympathetic Templars (Emeric and Thrask). The PC has also met Varric at this point as well. Later in the game, at the beginning of Act 2, a point is made to show Varric greasing wheels to keep Anders safe. It can be safely assumed that our good buddy has been doing the same for a Mage PC and of course had been doing the same for Bethany.

Given those events it is clearly evident that there are going-ons behind the scenes by the PC's friends and acquaintances to keep them safe... or at least incredibly lower on the threat radar.

As the first Act of the game progresses the PC becomes more and more of a folkhero to the lower classes of Kirkwall. As you walk thru the lower parts of the city NPCs will sometimes recognize you in awe. In this same first Act of the game the PC becomes favored by the Viscount after the PC rescues his son from being kidnapped. Undoubtedly this quest's ramifications alone would severely hamper any Templars idea of taking down our Mage PC or Bethany.

As Act 2 progresses our PC has surpassed folkhero status with the lower classes of Kirkwall and now is a living legend within the City. Our PC has friends and contacts in all parts of the city. Then by Act 2's end we literally become the city's savior, it's Champion, by defeating the Qunari.

As Act 3 starts Varric explains our PC's status is so strong in the city that even Meredith knows the folly it would be try to take us down.

In short: NO SPOILERS

BioWare did craft a storyline that gave reasonable doubt as to why a Mage PC or Bethany can exist within Kirkwall without being touched. You just have to pay attention to the game.

No. Two names. Wesley and Cullen. If you play a mage...interact with them and you'll undersatnd why your theory, good as it sounds, doesn't explain the major plot inaccuraces that exist where mages are concened.