236 réponses à ce sujet

[cljqnsnyc]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

OP.....

It's a good opinion but a poor excuse. Take for instance these:

1. Wesley

Wesley is a Templar. At the very beginning of the game he sets the stage for all that is to come. By this I mean how people will blatantly overlook the fact that you are a mage. In a game where the conflict between mages and templars is a central theme, this is unacceptable. Either Hawke matters or he doesn't. The situation cannot be had both ways. Wesley and Aveline come across the Hawke family. Wesley looks past you..mage Hawke...directly at your sister, mage Bethany, and says "Apostate!" Singular.  Not apostateS, plural. Now, Hawke being a mage is irrelevant in some areas then very relavant in others? Poor excuse. This for me is the hallmark of an uneven story. Sloppiness.

2. Cullen

Cullen. To all who have played DA:O, we are very familiar with Cullen and his feelings about mages. He even went as far to accuse the First Enchanter himself, Irving, of being a blood mage in disguise! Paranoid! You get the idea. Anyway, on a few occasions he has conversations with mage Hawke, one of which takes place directly after a confrontation with demons. He is able to witness first hand the fact that you are indeed a mage, templar or not. Once the battle is over he begins to generalize all mages as being dangerous, therefore cannot be trusted and should be confined. To this mage Hawke himself responds "I have friends who are mages, should they be locked up as well?' What? Is this how a mage responds to a question about mages? No. Another example of a glaring inconsistency which breaks immersion...at least it did for me.

On another occasion Cullen says this to mage Hawke..."Mages can't be trusted..THEY are not like YOU or me!" What? As I said before, in a story where this is a central theme, it is inexcusable to have such plot holes and inconsistencies. If we are to accept mage Hawke as being irrelevant in some cases and central in others, it more or less throws immersion out the window.

So, your point is good for argument sake but it is a very poor excuse in a story. If you were reading a novel or watching a movie, being asked to accept your theory would effectively destroy the narrative in both.

For me, it just doesn't work. No excuse.

Read this statement I posted earlier to undertsand my point.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 05 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[RVNX]

actually, I'm more peeved that being a Blood Mage has pretty much 0 impact on the story ( or being a Templar as a Warrior ), considering how important both BMs and Templars are to the story.

that, more than anything, really killed my overall desire to play the game, considering that's a huge blow to RP purposes.

[aduellist]

Putting on my best game show contestant voice:

"I can close that hole in one encounter!"

So your first year is up. You go to Gamlen's house and are confronted by a Chantry priest and a Templar. You are not sure if they are operating with official sanction (like that one quest at that one place where you need to get the guy out of town). You're told "we know you're a mage" (because either you or Bethany are one). "We would normally force you into the Circle, Tranquil you or kill you, but we have a unique opportunity. We want you to work for us and infiltrate the Apostate community. Failure to take up this offer will result in dire consequences for you and your family."

So now you're "Special Agent Hawke". You don't even need to add anything else to the various quests, as any "progress" can presume to be done during the downtime. Short, simple, and would have addressed the issue.

Modifié par aduellist, 05 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[ValentineMSmith]

aduellist wrote...

Putting on my best game show contestant voice:

"I can close that hole in one encounter!"

So your first year is up. You go to Gamlen's house and are confronted by a Chantry priest and a Templar. You are not sure if they are operating with official sanction (like that one quest at that one place where you need to get the guy out of town). You're told "we know you're a mage" (because either you or Bethany are one). "We would normally force you into the Circle, Tranquil you or kill you, but we have a unique opportunity. We want you to work for us and infiltrate the Apostate community. Failure to take up this offer will result in dire consequences for you and your family."

So now you're "Special Agent Hawke". You don't even need to add anything else to the various quests, as any "progress" can presume to be done during the downtime. Short, simple, and would have addressed the issue.

Do I get M:I music?

Okay, seriously this is about the best idea I've seen for how to cover this from that point on...I just don't think it's enough.

  It's obvious that Protagonist Hawke has Plot Armor but ....the way that Templars ignore magic from the Hawke/NPC party is mind-bending.  When I showed up with my mage Hawke, and threw fireballs to save the guard from the EEDIOTS who wanted to attack the guard in the Gallows in the very beginning...why did that never get a comment?   I'd honestly rather have had a third option for getting into the city...Apostate Hawke (or Bethany) gets immediately thrown into the Circle.  How is that less consistent with the game story and lore?

Later, it's okay to attack anyone with magic, with blue-circled Templars helping, and the not-yet-Champion gets no demerit points?   I at least expected a "This will go down...on your permanent record!"

[Big I]

ValentineMSmith wrote...
  It's obvious that Protagonist Hawke has Plot Armor but ....the way that Templars ignore magic from the Hawke/NPC party is mind-bending.  When I showed up with my mage Hawke, and threw fireballs to save the guard from the EEDIOTS who wanted to attack the guard in the Gallows in the very beginning...why did that never get a comment?   I'd honestly rather have had a third option for getting into the city...Apostate Hawke (or Bethany) gets immediately thrown into the Circle.  How is that less consistent with the game story and lore?

Later, it's okay to attack anyone with magic, with blue-circled Templars helping, and the not-yet-Champion gets no demerit points?   I at least expected a "This will go down...on your permanent record!"

I find it disconcerting that a Blood Mage Hawke, everytime he comes across blood magic, is all "how dare you use blood magic?!" Very disconcerting.


I find it equally disconcerting that you can warn Cullen in Act 3, with Anders in the party commenting on this, that one of your mage companions is planning to attack the Chantry. Cullen promises to "pass the warning on"...and that's it. Cullen, he's standing right there. Arrest him.

[Sabriana]

LookingGlass93 wrote...


I find it disconcerting that a Blood Mage Hawke, everytime he comes across blood magic, is all "how dare you use blood magic?!" Very disconcerting.


I find it equally disconcerting that you can warn Cullen in Act 3, with Anders in the party commenting on this, that one of your mage companions is planning to attack the Chantry. Cullen promises to "pass the warning on"...and that's it. Cullen, he's standing right there. Arrest him.

That would work equally well as "Meredith! He's right here, right in front of you! Arrest him!

There are quite a few good ideas in this thread on how to at least give the major aspect of DA 2 some credibility. As a matter of fact, anything would be better than "let's just ignore it, maybe they won't notice".

Blood magic in DA:O could be expained by the Warden's motto "Anything goes." Although it was simply stupid to make it possible for the player to spec Wynne as one. However, blood magic was a side issue in DA:O

It was however, the main story in DA 2. It couldn't get any more major than that. It was the central theme, and mage Hawke not facing any kind of consequences/repercussions is just plain silly. They more or less ignored their own main plot-line in that aspect.

My first "Wait! What?" moment was when it was made clear that Hawke seeks fortune and status to avoid being thrown into the Gallows. How is that feasable? How come no one told Isolde that? Silly Isolde. She obviously didn't know that her money and status made Connor immune to templar persecution. Neither did the Arl, or Teagan, or Alistair. Silly, silly people.

[AngryFrozenWater]

If the "shape the world" marketing slogan was actually implemented then it could have their own separate quests that deal with the problem. Or you could be forced to use a disguise. Get some ring to allow you to use non-mage armor for an example.

But no... We get mage gear and a staff. Nobody cares that you are an apostate. It even goes further. Apostates are so common that there are merchants throughout Kirkwall that actually can make a living. They are even trustworthy and surprisingly enough aren't hired by the templars to catch mages. I found myself in several situations where I had to tell that I was a mage, before they actually recognized that. The robe and staff wasn't enough to give that obvious fact away.

But when there is a rumor of a mage in a remote dalish camp the templars show up to arrest him. Mages are hunted down and templars won't give up even if they flee the city. All those things give a false sense of the game reality I am in. It kills immersion. It matters to a player like me that this inconsistent game world exist. And it could have been interesting to see if BW has actually taken the time to tackle it.

For unknown reasons, they have decided to not create a believable world. It doesn't have to be all that realistic. Give me the illusion. And I don't really care that they didn't have the time to do that. And I don't care that it would have been expensive. I am a gamer and not a stockholder.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 avril 2011 - 12:17 .

[aftohsix]

Okay so far there seems to be two trains of thought.

The first consists of some pretty cool ideas for how they could have implemented a reactive world to a Mage Hawke.  Keep it up.  I'm really enjoying the discussion.

The second train of thought consists of this opinion:  "If Bioware made a different game all of the problems would go away." .....  Obvious much?

The game's been out for three weeks now.  The time has come and gone for "Bioware should have made a different game," as a form of criticism.  DA2 is the game we have.  If you straight up hate it, that's totally fine but what you should be focusing on is providing some constructive feedback.  "Make a different game" isn't going to cut it.

Thirdly:  Don't hijack my thread please.

Fourthly:  If you feel the need to bash Mr. Laidlaw or any other Bioware developer do it somewhere else.

and finally this treat...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

What is it you are going to report him for? What is with everyone reporting people anyway? Are you that fragile?

No I'm not "fragile."  I'm so far past done with trying to discuss the game with people who can't do it civily.  Re-read his entire post.  If he can't post a response to me without implying I somehow have an IQ of 10 he doesn't deserve to be an active member of this community.

My new rule is: be a douche.  I'll report you and let the mods sort it out.

[sphinxess]

The_FenixV wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

See I felt Hawke was an observer with bad timing. The affairs of the ungrateful peoples of Kirkwall no longer concerned me partway through I often wondered why I should stay.>_<

By the end I sort of wanted to channel my inner Eric Cartman and say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  but it made us chose from two sides.  Ah well, my mage Hawke will stand up for the mages I  guess as the mages annoy me slightly less than the Templars.

Haha I wish my character could just go "F you both, Kirkwall is mine, if you don't like it, I kill you with my magic foo" But sadly we weren't giving that option, but I don't mind, working on a mage who will side with the templars xD 

I would have sat down with Avaline and planned how we could take out the winner of the conflict - go city guard!

[Sabriana]

It doesn't even have to be "Well, that boat sailed" when it comes to implementing Hawke's magic somehow, somewhere. One NPC had the mage Hawke recognition and DA 2 treatment of magic written into his role. It wasn't fully fleshed out, but at least it was there, barely, but it wasn't ignored. So it's not as if no one in design and development was unaware of this contradiction in their own product.

Fenris is the only one who calls her on the carpet, because he's aware of her being a mage after seeing her use magic. He also comments on it frequently, whether it's with her directly, or in banter. The three-way shouting match in the Gallows was hilarious, for example.

When romanced, he will also explain to Hawke why he thinks she's an exception. He will elevate Hawke's superiority as a mage in banter, and thump Anders' nose in it. So it was there, unfortunately it seems to have been just for one NPC.

[Kimberly Shaw]

@Sabriana and @Angryfrozenwater, great posts!!

I would really love to see Bioware comment on this thread in some way to defend why they did what they did. And a little blip on Blood Magic would go a long way. For story reasons, the specializations to drop between DA:O and DA:2 would be blood magic, not shapeshifter or arcane warrior (although for game play reasons, good riddance to shapeshifter, the most useless spec ever!)

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

aftohsix wrote...

Okay so far there seems to be two trains of thought.

The first consists of some pretty cool ideas for how they could have implemented a reactive world to a Mage Hawke.  Keep it up.  I'm really enjoying the discussion.

The second train of thought consists of this opinion:  "If Bioware made a different game all of the problems would go away." .....  Obvious much?

The game's been out for three weeks now.  The time has come and gone for "Bioware should have made a different game," as a form of criticism.  DA2 is the game we have.  If you straight up hate it, that's totally fine but what you should be focusing on is providing some constructive feedback.  "Make a different game" isn't going to cut it.

why would ycome up with ideas for how to fix something you just said there is no point talking about. the complaints arent just for fun we say they should have made a diiferent story so that next time they do. maybe next time they wont paint themselves into a corner of needing to have a mage character and making it almost imposible for him to logically exist in the story they wrote. Even then having to  make a hard choice doesnt make it impossible just on this board several people mentioned how to cover up this plot hole. with an ace writing team and a large budget they could have implemented all your ideas they just didnt.

Also conserning how apperently mercenary groups and varric can bribe and protect us from templars this didnt really make sense to me. if being rich or well connected could do this why havent all the nobel families kept their children protected, why do we hunt down an apostate mage who is stated to have rich noble and powerfull parents. If we really stretch our imagination on this it might have worked in a game not focusing so much on how hardcore and ruthless the templars of kirkwall are.

Modifié par SIx_Foot_Imp, 05 avril 2011 - 02:13 .

[Rockpopple]

Now that I've had a night to think about it, I've come to the conclusion that you can reasonably make excuses for most of what an Apostate Hawke does in Kirkwall without being thrown into the Gallows or given the Brand. Spoilers in Blue - But they're minor

The problem is really in Act I. Once you get to Act II there are pretty set-in-stone reasons for Hawke being out of Meredith's gaze.

But for Act I.... You can say that whatever gang she rode with pre-Act 1 gave him protection, and that having Aveline in the guard and living in Lowtown where Templar presence isn't high would also protect her. Remember that in Act I Hawke is a relative unknown, so rumours would be flying around of an Apostate mage in Lowtown, but he'd be only one of about a dozen in Kirkwall.

As for the guards/templars that are actually present during the night in Kirkwall when Hawke is frying hundreds of gang-members in front of their eyes, you can reasonably assert that they're looking the other way because Hawke's doing their jobs for them.

So you can say that it's not that big a problem, just like you can make excuses for Wynne excusing Blood Magic or being a Blood Mage herself in DA:O.

What is absolutely inexcusable is Cullen not even noticing you're a Mage. Given his history, not only should he notice you're a Mage (there's no way he could be that distracted during battle to not notice Hawke flinging spells like no one's business), he should probably want to kill you on sight. He's probably the 2nd most Mage paranoid character in the game.

That's where the illusion falls apart. Everything else I can deal with.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 05 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[MrTijger]

Well, lets remove mage as a playable class then, problem solved.

[Huntress]

I wish the moment I helped the guards using magic at the entrance to kirkwall (where the hole game is about,) I would have been sent to the gallows.. I know for sure Carver would have tryed to help me scape, or did something good for Mother.

[Rockpopple]

I don't remember any Templars being in the Gallows at the start of the game. Plus you just saved a Guard's life, so I'm sure he would have at least done you the favor of not crying to the Templars.

[MrTijger]

Huntress wrote...

I wish the moment I helped the guards using magic at the entrance to kirkwall (where the hole game is about,) I would have been sent to the gallows.. I know for sure Carver would have tryed to help me scape, or did something good for Mother.

roll credits.

It'll be shorter but nobody can complain its not consistent

Modifié par MrTijger, 05 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[kaimanaMM]

Rockpopple wrote...

The problem is really in Act I. Once you get to Act II there are pretty set-in-stone reasons for Hawke being out of Meredith's gaze.

And :

What is absolutely inexcusable is Cullen not even noticing you're a Mage. Given his history, not only should he notice you're a Mage (there's no way he could be that distracted during battle to not notice Hawke flinging spells like no one's business), he should probably want to kill you on sight. He's probably the 2nd most Mage paranoid character in the game.

That's where the illusion falls apart. Everything else I can deal with.

I 100% agree with. The problems are really in Act 1.  And you can say the smugglers or mercenaries were protecting Hawke somehow and I could even stretch my belief that far, but it's a pretty big smack in the face when you come across Cullen out there with Wilmod playing out the way it does.  

[Speakeasy13]

aftohsix wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

We know why they did it, doesn't mean we have to enjoy it. Here I was a mage and supposedly sympathetic to my fellows plight when in reality it didn't matter because the game was designed to ignore my talents. My friends and family would comment on how they were worried because I was a mage. I wish Hawke could just turn around and say "Guys, it's ok. I'm the hero."

Okay but in all honesty what was their option then?  What would you have had them do differently to make it more enjoyable for you?

How 'bout don't go with a storyline since you can't justify it?

Just sayin'. Thing is many ppl don't even enjoy the derivative storyline from DA:O.

[Kimberly Shaw]

What about Act 2 makes you immune to the Templars? That you're a noble? That you've made friends with the Viscount by rescueing his son? If anything your notarity in Act 2 would draw attention to it. Remembering Isolde couldn't protect her very young child from the Circle, neither could your money or influence with the Viscount. Also not sure why the Viscount would want to be associated with an Apostate, given his temultuous grasp on power that would be like the an unpopular Governer giving props to the mafia because they helped him out of a jam.

Apparently, only the smugglers and mercenaries can protect you from Templars. Somehow...it's a bit inconsistant that some people CAN hide from the Templars and some people cannot get out of the Circle no matter what (and yes, there are mage / blood mage plot problem is in both games, but it is far more excusable in Origins).

And we really need a whole other thread about Blood Magic speciliazation being ignored in both games.

[Rockpopple]

Well since we're just pitching spoilers all ovah the place...

Not only is Hawke a noble in Act II, he's got the Viscount's ear. The game establishes how hard it is to even SEE the Viscount, even for the Hightown nobles. Plus we still see Varric throwing money around to keep Anders' clinic from the Templar's gaze, so we know money can buy anonymity or sanctuary from Templars in Kirkwall.

We have to remember that Kirkwall is not Ferelden. Any rules that applied there you could throw out the window. Also, Isolde COULD protect her son from the Circle. She did. That's why she hired Jowan. In the end, her son had to go because of all that demony-blood magicky stuff. (As Sarah Palin would say).

I agree that having a Blood Magic specialization can't really be rationalized, especially in DA II. In DA:O, Blood Magic is a hazy concept. It's bad, but... well, who cares? But in DA II, Merrill and Anders both say outright that to use Blood Magic YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DEAL WITH A DEMON. Where does that happen for Hawke?! She never made any deal with a demon. He put a point into "Blood Magic" and suddenly she's a Blood Mage.

The whole thing is gimped, story-wise. I can see a workaround for being a Mage in Kirkwall (aside from Cullen), but the whole Blood Magic spec thing don't make no sense.

Still fun to be one, though.

[Kimberly Shaw]

so we know money can buy anonymity or sanctuary from Templars in Kirkwall.

I guess this is my issue. It's true sometimes, but not other times, and it certainly flies in the face of the game. I kind of think the money can make people not turn you in to the Templars, but if the Templars (aside from maybe one or two really sympathetic ones) know, you're screwed. Is that fair to say?

By end of Act 2 and Act 3, I agree, Meredith knows and doesn't bring you in and all is well and good. I still think once a Templar sees you throwing magic around in Act 1 or 2 (pre-Qunari invasion) you can't really explain it by greasing the palms and influence of the Viscount. Because once a Templar knows you're in the gallows.

[Rockpopple]

I don't disagree with you, Kimberly Shaw. I just think that it's a stretch, but you can kinda sorta justify at least that part. Other stuff you can't, but such is life.

[ScotGaymer]

Its kinda poor that its never really explained but I always thought that most folks in Kirkwall already simply assumed you were a Circle Mage from Ferelden.
Being a non citizen the Templars and Circle of Kirkwall wouldnt have an jurisdiction over you without (potentially) causing an incident with Ferelden, and its King/Queen.

At least thats my thoughts on it. I dont know how else to explain it though...


EDIT:
This whole mage problem is typical of a wider ranging problem with the writing in this game; in that Hawke is absolutely totally irrelevant for pretty much all of it.
We are told "rise to power by any means necessary". Yeh we dont even rise to power at all. We get dragged there kicking and screaming no matter what we do or say.

Seriously, nothing Hawke does has any impact on the story at all, even superficial changes.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 05 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[aftohsix]

To truly experience how immersion breaking this issue is play a pro-templar blood mage. I'm doing it right now and it's pretty funny. "BLOOD MAGE TO THE CIRCLE WITH YE!!" "But I just saw you use blood magic." "I AM WEALTHY!"