133 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

With object Rho, I don't figure how the team could have allowed themselves to be indoctrinated so easily. It's a active Reaper artifact, and you didn't expect to get indoctrinated? Serriously?

Even if they were sceptical of the Reapers as an invasion threat, they must have known about indoctrination by Sovreign from the Vermire reports. Once they figured out what it was and what it meant, they must have had a major lack of anything resembling judgement to not isolate it. The signal can be detected, so it must be able to be blocked at least partially. At the very least, a simple solution would be to move it to the opposite side of the asteroid and have people pull shifts studying it to minimize the impact rather than seting it in the center of your complex.

I am not one of the people that casually tries to poke holes in the plot, but this is just one of those examples of baffling idiocy that irritates me. A little common sense regarding ancient alien technology would be appreciated.

/rant

[Michoss]

You do not simply 'realise' you are being indoctrinated. And if you somehow, finally do, you are aleady thinking it's a good thing.

Modifié par Michoss, 04 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[Elite Midget]

Well, Scientist in ME Universe are mentally challenged when it comes to common sense.

It seems when they see Reaper stuff they immediatly say "For Science!" and forgo all saftey procedures.

[belwin]

someone in the project was with cerberus.

anything to do with cerberus automatically leads to indoctrination.

[TheDFO]

Just about everyone IN ME2 is mentally challenged. Why should scientists be any different.

[samurai crusade]

If you read the novel Retribution... with Paul Greyson.. you would see similar effects of indoctrination between Greyson and the good Doctor. She was doing the Reapers will by bringing Shepard to the base. It wasn't until Shepard was ready to destroy the relay... that the indoctrination snapped and she became a full-on pawn. As she said herself, they were only a push of the button away but the reapers did not want that.... they were clearly waiting for Shepard. They may have even realized her connection to Hacket and believed he would contact Shepard. Indoctrination is subtle... and it works best when the host believes that they are in control.

[Tleining]

You can also find Data-Pads/Recordings that show that the Team had set up shields and was monitoring the device. They were sure that whatever caused the indoctrination wouldn't work with the precautions they had taken. When they realized that they might be wrong, they started praying

[Kasces]

Michoss wrote...

You do not simply 'realise' you are being indoctrinated. And if you somehow, finally do, you are aleady thinking it's a good thing.

This. They were probably screwed the minute they encountered the artifact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, let's consider whether we came out better or worse for the fact that they stuck their head in.

On the down side, we lost a few good men and women.

On the bright side, we actually learned of an imminent Reaper invasion plan, and enough in advance to actually prepare to counter it.


So, if we took the uber-safe route (blow up all Reaper technology: the basis for destroying the Base), or even a semi-safe route (keep it half a mile away at all times, poke and prod it), would we be better off?

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, let's consider whether we came out better or worse for the fact that they stuck their head in.

On the down side, we lost a few good men and women.

On the bright side, we actually learned of an imminent Reaper invasion plan, and enough in advance to actually prepare to counter it.


So, if we took the uber-safe route (blow up all Reaper technology: the basis for destroying the Base), or even a semi-safe route (keep it half a mile away at all times, poke and prod it), would we be better off?

This is a very good point.  However, had The Spectacular and Almighty Shepard not been called in to save the day, the project would have failed and we'd still be  f*cked.

Play it safe, take your time, avoid indoctrination = timer runs out, Reapers win.
Throw caution to the wind and proceed with the Project despite the risk = get indoctrinated, Reapers win.

I suppose they could have rotated teams so that nobody was on the asteroid for more than a couple days at a time, but you know, that would make sense.

[PARAGON87]

Really they just probably found the artifact, realized it was Reaper tech, then before they could realize that they have been indoctrinated, it was too late.

The whole complex was built around it, they must have underestimated the power of indoctrination before they were able to seal it off.

/rational explanation

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, let's consider whether we came out better or worse for the fact that they stuck their head in.

On the down side, we lost a few good men and women.

On the bright side, we actually learned of an imminent Reaper invasion plan, and enough in advance to actually prepare to counter it.


So, if we took the uber-safe route (blow up all Reaper technology: the basis for destroying the Base), or even a semi-safe route (keep it half a mile away at all times, poke and prod it), would we be better off?

This is a very good point.  However, had The Spectacular and Almighty Shepard not been called in to save the day, the project would have failed and we'd still be  f*cked.

Play it safe, take your time, avoid indoctrination = timer runs out, Reapers win.
Throw caution to the wind and proceed with the Project despite the risk = get indoctrinated, Reapers win.

I suppose they could have rotated teams so that nobody was on the asteroid for more than a couple days at a time, but you know, that would make sense.

I'm not even sure that level of carefulness would work. We don't know the timeline for indoctrination, or whether there's anything consistent about it. the closest comparison I can make is the One Ring... the instant you pick it up, you may already be pretty screwed. It depends on your strength of will, the emotions you're feeling at the time, and your general succeptibility - Gollum was willing to murder after a few minutes, while Bilbo carried it for years without being too badly warped. From what I gather, indoctrination works similarly - and there's no way you can tell what's up beforehand.

I'll admit that the "take your time and be careful, Reapers win" aspect of all of this escaped me up until now. That's important - from a purely rutheless point of view, it may be better to play with Reaper tech, counting on at least one Frodo among you to resist indoctrination, than to leave it alone.

Hmm.

[StowyMcStowstow]

I do agree with the OP, but indoctrination is a slow process. Although if they realized their procedures weren't working, shouldn't they have... blown it up? Hell, why didn't they attempt to reverse engineer it the second they came upon it? Hello, working Reaper technology, I'd like you to meet Mr. Screwdriver.

$5 says there's a small speaker set in every bit of Reaper tech that is connected to the Reaper fleet, and they all take turns speaking really softly into the mic.

[ydaraishy]

$5 says there's a small speaker set in every bit of Reaper tech that is connected to the Reaper fleet, and they all take turns speaking really softly into the mic.

And then they have to turn off the mic sometimes because they're trying really hard not to giggle into it while it's on?

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'll admit that the "take your time and be careful, Reapers win" aspect of all of this escaped me up until now. That's important - from a purely rutheless point of view, it may be better to play with Reaper tech, counting on at least one Frodo among you to resist indoctrination, than to leave it alone.

Hmm.

It's actually one of my standing counterarguments for keeping the Collector Base on the basis of Reaper technology has a history of being dangerous: even if we do agree that something in particular is dangerous, not taking the costs can and often has been even higher. To not make use of the Mass Effect and relays is to be overwhelmed by those who do: to not make use of the remains of Sovereign is the not have the fallback of EDI : to not find and use the Reaper IFF is to not pass the Omega Relay. We need Reaper technology. We rely on Reaper technology. Because while it may kill us as individuals, it has allowed us to survive as a whole.

Decision making, especially of a higher level, is a matter of costs AND benefits, and the presence of one does not instantly negate the other.

[Nathan Redgrave]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I suppose they could have rotated teams so that nobody was on the asteroid for more than a couple days at a time, but you know, that would make sense.

How do you propose they should do this without attracting batarian attention?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'll admit that the "take your time and be careful, Reapers win" aspect of all of this escaped me up until now. That's important - from a purely rutheless point of view, it may be better to play with Reaper tech, counting on at least one Frodo among you to resist indoctrination, than to leave it alone.

Hmm.

It's actually one of my standing counterarguments for keeping the Collector Base on the basis of Reaper technology has a history of being dangerous: even if we do agree that something in particular is dangerous, not taking the costs can and often has been even higher. To not make use of the Mass Effect and relays is to be overwhelmed by those who do: to not make use of the remains of Sovereign is the not have the fallback of EDI : to not find and use the Reaper IFF is to not pass the Omega Relay. We need Reaper technology. We rely on Reaper technology. Because while it may kill us as individuals, it has allowed us to survive as a whole.

Decision making, especially of a higher level, is a matter of costs AND benefits, and the presence of one does not instantly negate the other.

True, though EDI was made from shards of destroyed Reaper tech, not an intact, fully functional structure. It's a bit of a horse of a different color, though I don't want to start the whole collector base argument again.

Back to the main thread: one of the reasons indoctrination is so insidious is that it's exceedingly difficult to study. I'd say it's impossible to study if you abide by a strict moral code, and risky even if you're completely renegade about it.

Right now, we know this: intact Reaper devices can cause indoctrination, though ones designed to seem harmless generally do not, as far as we can tell (eg the Citadel itself, the relays). Blown up pieces don't seem to have this same effect, but seemingly deactivated ones can. And we only know this much because of unfortunate accidents in the past - if we wanted to do a study, how could it possibly be conducted? One of my theories is that the derelict reaper study project was also an effort on Cerberus's part to study the effects of indoctrination.

So how do we know how big a chunk of Reaper tech has to be for it to be capable of indoctrination? What if the big chunk of Soverign that landed in the wards is still indoctrinating? The only way to answer these questions is to perform tests, on human subjects. The protocols of any of those tests would be highly immoral and highly suspect... but is it worth it?

A sample study set-up:

Quarantine everyone who works on the collector base. Send them there for different amounts of time: group A, no more than a few hours at a time. Group B, a few days, Group C, a week or longer. Collect all their diary entries, video journals, and voicelogs. Build case studies. Sort them by exposure time and severity of mental degradation. Perform statistical analysis. Retest, with different variables. What if they aren't ON the base, but are on a station a mile away?  Ten miles away?

Test subjects for other forms of conditioning - skinner boxes, Stockholm syndrome. Are those most susceptible to indoctrination also susceptible to other kinds of conditioning? Sort by age, race, religious affiliation. Look for patterns. More statistical analysis. Myers Briggs is probably still being used, run it through that filter too. See if we can find someone else as resistant as Shepard.

The big problem here is what to do with the test subjects who fail? As far as we're aware, indoctrination is incurable... the subjects can rebel for a short period of time, but what makes us think they could ever entirely "recover?" Even those who show no symptoms may still be indoctrinated... that's what the Protheans have told us. The only safe way to perform the study is to permanently quarantine or kill all subjects when the study is complete.

This... is why I'm always hesitant to be a Renegade. This kind of thinking... comes too easily. Without paragon constraints, there is a high likelihood I might become a mad social scientist.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This... is why I'm always hesitant to be a Renegade. This kind of thinking... comes too easily. Without paragon constraints, there is a high likelihood I might become a mad social scientist.

My idea would be to only use volunteers from prisons - sell the "you can redeem yourself by helping us with this research" idea - being honest with them about focus of the study.  There's trillions of citizens, that means there's a LOT of people in prison.

[AquamanOS]

Here's a question. Did the team even know about indoctrination at all? Not everyone seems to. The Derelict Reaper guys seem to have no idea what's going on when their memories get messed up, and the one guy can only manage a "Dead God's dream" towards the end. Rarely does anyone mention indoctrination by name. It could just be that people don't know of the danger.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Almostfaceman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This... is why I'm always hesitant to be a Renegade. This kind of thinking... comes too easily. Without paragon constraints, there is a high likelihood I might become a mad social scientist.

My idea would be to only use volunteers from prisons - sell the "you can redeem yourself by helping us with this research" idea - being honest with them about focus of the study.  There's trillions of citizens, that means there's a LOT of people in prison.

This is still morally questionable at best, though sure it's the obvious chioce. I'm not going to go into the specifics of why... a little relevant googling should give you some of the relevant human history.

Even given that, there is some scientific importance to testing the reactions of people who don't know they're being tested... which is another huge factor in psychological test design. If someone knows about and believes in indoctrination, will they behave differently than someone who doesn't?

All in all, I'm going to have to go with my friend Mordin Solus. "No tests on species with members capable of calculus. Simple rule, never broke it."

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


The big problem here is what to do with the test subjects who fail? As far as we're aware, indoctrination is incurable... the subjects can rebel for a short period of time, but what makes us think they could ever entirely "recover?" Even those who show no symptoms may still be indoctrinated... that's what the Protheans have told us. The only safe way to perform the study is to permanently quarantine or kill all subjects when the study is complete.

Well, we do know from Vigil that indoctrination can be detected in a subject, so really just quarantiine until then, giving them productive but non-essential tasks.

This... is why I'm always hesitant to be a Renegade. This kind of thinking... comes too easily. Without paragon constraints, there is a high likelihood I might become a mad social scientist.

You can become a mad social scientist with Paragon constraints: it just tneds to have nicer justifications and appeals to sentimentality.

The other means to handle it is a cost-benefit analysis: how many lives is your sanity worth?

[OH-UP-THIS!]

....and the clinically insane, sociopaths of the universe will be immune.
What a lovely conclusion.