133 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

The way I always interpreted it, someone (e.g. sovereign) altered one of their basic runtime routines (isn't that what legion says). That is not indoctrination as it works on an organic nervous system. Now it may be, that indoctrination adapts to the subject (i.e. it sends a signal that rewrites routines for geth and an electromagnetic stimulus for human brains, etc.). However, Legion seemed to be on the derelict reaper for some time without getting affected while the cerberus personal were still indoctrinated heavily. That is some circumstantioal evidence that geth are at least less vulnerable.

@Mr0TYuH : I can't remember Sovereign influencing AIs in Revelation. It influenced the head researcher of an AI research facility but not any AI that I am aware of. It has been some time since I read the book though, so I might have forgotten something.

EDIT:

kaotician wrote...

I thought the Geth were indoctrinated.
That whole business Legion talks about regarding the runtime error, and
the consequent incremental adjustments to Geth thinking that it
introduced? The stuff that's subsequently alluded to in Overlord
(Overload, surely?), where David picks up the same mathematical error,
at the end?

I don't know, the altering of the runtimes seems very specific, an active process of rewriting code. Indoctrination of organics rather seems like a passive process, also much more complex. Besides, the geth have identified and countered the problem with the runtimes (see Legion LM) so the reapers would at least have to come up with something new.
Overlord is not about the reapers or the heretics at al, as far as I understand. David merges with isolated geth. It's not getting entirely clear what caused the violence and chaos but I always thought the David was just afraid in the new situation (being merged and all) and lost control. The geth part of the merged intelligence could cope with Davids presence either and all slipped into chaos. But that's just my interpretation, as I said, it's not clear what happens. Nowhere however is it hinted (that I know of) that this has anything to do with the heretics or the reapers.

Modifié par MrFob, 05 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

kaotician wrote...

I thought the Geth were indoctrinated. That whole business Legion talks about regarding the runtime error, and the consequent incremental adjustments to Geth thinking that it introduced? The stuff that's subsequently alluded to in Overlord (Overload, surely?), where David picks up the same mathematical error, at the end?

I got the idea that, when the decision was first made, it seemed like a valid, non-indoctriation-based decision to the non-heretic Geth. Then later, when Legion examines their code and the virus, he is really disturbed when he finds out they were willing to resort to... math errors... to get what they want.

It's the difference between someone deciding that their job is more important than college, and someone deciding that chocolate is purple and poisonous to all humans. One is a priority system thing, which would seem like a normal choice, whereas the other thing is just incorrect.

Basically, first a reaper will try to make you think you're making a logical choice. If that doesn't work, he'll brute-force outright lies into your way of thinking. So while it might seem like Saren chose to go after Sovereign for reasonable reasons at first and only went crazy later, it could be that even those first thoughts of "hey, cool ship, imma take it" were indoctrination as well... they were just the subtle, starter-mode indoctrination that the Geth mistook for a choice on the part of the heretics.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Drake_Hound]

Honestly we don´t know how the reaper indoctrination works , like poor doctor kenson .
She was so indoctrined she wanted to meet her GODS (means religious factor).
Others see there loved ones calling to them from the grave . seems indoctrine works on basis of weakness or soft spot , even protheans were not immune .
Neither were the Asari , infact Shaila is the only one to tell how it worked .
But infact only one race currently rejected reaper indoctrination , (well atleast half of them) are the Geth .
So basically it must have something to do with logic aside from emotional brainwash .
If machines are affected by it .

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

I thought the Geth were indoctrinated. That whole business Legion talks about regarding the runtime error, and the consequent incremental adjustments to Geth thinking that it introduced? The stuff that's subsequently alluded to in Overlord (Overload, surely?), where David picks up the same mathematical error, at the end?

You mean the dialogue in which Legion specifically refutes that it is a math error if Shepard asks, and that the Heretic difference of opinion is natural and correct?

The only part where the runtime error came into effect was the Heretic Virus... created after Sovereign was dead.


Overlord didn't even focus on the runtime error, and never raised it. Instead, it focused on exploiting the Geth's religious inclinations.

[kaotician]

Well, clearly I don't mean that dialogue. Thanks for asking. The runtime error is introduced at the end of Overlord - head back and check it out.

Modifié par kaotician, 05 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[SalsaDMA]

Michoss wrote...

You do not simply 'realise' you are being indoctrinated. And if you somehow, finally do, you are aleady thinking it's a good thing.

Grayson was very much aware and quite capable of fighting them back.

It wasn't untill he got drugged with red sand that the reapers were allowed to ascertain control of him.


There does seem to be a 'point of no return' where they have gotten too much in control, but Grayson was able to resist them getting a foothold untill TIM got tired of waiting and installed a red sand dispenser in him to keep him perpetually drugged.

[Jzadek72]

Arcian wrote...

This principle.

XKCD for the win.

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

Well, clearly I don't mean that dialogue. Thanks for asking. The runtime error is introduced at the end of Overlord - head back and check it out.

Just playing through it again, and not seeing any mention of a runtime error hack.

Overlord takes advantage of the religious inclination, but that's a natural facet of (at least the Heretic) Geth, not an induced flaw.

[primero holodon]

well, these are the same people who though that turning on shepard after telling him how to destroy the relay and bringing him to the one place he could do it was a good idea

[SandTrout]

Another point: once they figured out about the degrading signal that they used to estimate when the reapers would arrive, why didn't they get rid of the artifact then? They were planning on sending it with the rock into the relay anyways, so why take the risk of exposure any more at that point?

[kaotician]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Well, clearly I don't mean that dialogue. Thanks for asking. The runtime error is introduced at the end of Overlord - head back and check it out.

Just playing through it again, and not seeing any mention of a runtime error hack.

Overlord takes advantage of the religious inclination, but that's a natural facet of (at least the Heretic) Geth, not an induced flaw.

If you listen to David's recitation of the pi sequence at the end,  the error creeps in.....

[Dean_the_Young]

He's not reciting pi, he's doing the square root of an increasing number.

[Kingthlayer]

She was alliance, the alliance don't believe the Reaper threat.

[MrFob]

He is calculating a square root but kaotician is right, he is wrong (by 0.1 IIRC). I am not sure this is supposed to hint at the heretics alteration though. It might be, but then, according to legions explanations, the heretics are not actually calculating anything wrong, just ... different.

[kaotician]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He's not reciting pi, he's doing the square root of an increasing number.

Fine, I misremembered that bit, don't miss the point though in the urge to prove me wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He's not reciting pi, he's doing the square root of an increasing number.

Fine, I misremembered that bit, don't miss the point though in the urge to prove me wrong.

Since your two case examples of Geth being indoctrinated (Heretics and Overlord) were nothing of the sort, I'm not sure you have a point anymore.

Nothing to date has suggested or implied in any respect that Geth are vulnerable to the Indoctrination field-effect. Sovereign didn't corrupt Heretics, they voluntarily joined it, and the means to directly affect Geth were an entirely different means developed after Sovereign was destroyed.

While Geth are vulnerable to highest-caliber AI warfare (the Heretic Virus, the Quarian hacking breakthrough, Overlord), none of these are Indoctrination.

[ReluctantMind]

I believe that in ME1 Rana Thanoptis stated that the indoctrination field affects organic minds. As the lead researcher (at that point) of Saren's indoctrination study she would be in a position to know more than most.

[kaotician]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He's not reciting pi, he's doing the square root of an increasing number.

Fine, I misremembered that bit, don't miss the point though in the urge to prove me wrong.

Since your two case examples of Geth being indoctrinated (Heretics and Overlord) were nothing of the sort, I'm not sure you have a point anymore.

Nothing to date has suggested or implied in any respect that Geth are vulnerable to the Indoctrination field-effect. Sovereign didn't corrupt Heretics, they voluntarily joined it, and the means to directly affect Geth were an entirely different means developed after Sovereign was destroyed.

While Geth are vulnerable to highest-caliber AI warfare (the Heretic Virus, the Quarian hacking breakthrough, Overlord), none of these are Indoctrination.

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes? Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes? In short, that humans may become Indoctrinated without ever coming into contact with Reaper technology, as I see it.

Legion may say that the Geth made free choices, but doesn't everyone who gets Indoctrinated feel/think the same to begin with?

Modifié par kaotician, 06 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[kaotician]

Saphra Deden wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes? Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes?

Huuuuuur. It is indoctrination in "concept" but it is not the actual means employed by Sovereign. When Sovereign indoctrinated Benezia I'm positive he did not infect her with a computer virus.

It's a virus that works on both computers and humans alike. It's not a 'computer virus' per se, just because it's worked on computers first.

[MrFob]

kaotician wrote...

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes?

It could be a form of geth indoctrination but it definitely uses other means than organic indoctrination (as elaborated in earlier post).

Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes?

Well, that's your interpretation and I guess it's fair enough. However, IMO it's quite a stretch in logic. The altering of the heretics runtimes caused no math errors (according to legion). The aggressive behavior of the geth in Overlord could be purely due to Davids state of mind. THere is just no real hint to a connection with the reapers that I can see.

[008Zulu]

kaotician wrote...

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes? Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes? In short, that humans may become Indoctrinated without ever coming into contact with Reaper technology, as I see it.

In Overlord, David "infected" the Geth network. The strain of all those Geth talking and thinking at once was too much for him to comprehend and manage.


The indoctrination signal has always seemed to me to be a form of subliminal hypnosis transmitted over white noise. Since it was designed to affect organic minds, synthetics such as the Geth could filter out the effect. The heretics so the opportunity the Reapers presented and asked them for the tech to become better. It was a conscious choice on their behalf.

As for the team that discovered Object Rho, yeah, by the time they realised it was a Reaper device it was too late.

[kaotician]

But doesn't Overlord show that the Heretic virus behaves like, well, a virus, and don't we see at the end that it's affected David too, thus crossing the species barrier? And if it's based on Reaper Indoctrination, doesn't that mean that the Geth are carrying a virus capable of Reaper Indoctrination of other species? Maybe I'm wrong, but there's the saying that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Modifié par kaotician, 06 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

It's a virus that works on both computers and humans alike. It's not a 'computer virus' per se, just because it's worked on computers first

This theory is bad, and you should feel bad.