133 réponses à ce sujet

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

It's a virus that works on both computers and humans alike. It's not a 'computer virus' per se, just because it's worked on computers first

This theory is bad, and you should feel bad.

It's no theory, we actually see/hear this happening at the end of Overlord.

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

It's no theory, we actually see/hear this happening at the end of Overlord.

EDIT: Wait, are you referring to Shepard's weird cyber-thingamajig?

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[kaotician]

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

[kaotician]

Saphra Deden wrote...

kaotician, I think you are confusing what is in the game with your own personal fan fiction.

Well, I'm certainly confusing you:blink:

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

...Then you're just as deluded as I thought. Oh, well.

EDIT: This is what really happened--David's mathematical bullcrap allowed him to communicate with the geth at  basic level. This is not because a computer virus is capable of working on an organic mind, this is because David had the entirely unique ability to communicate with the geth. It does not imply that a program (which is what a virus is, FYI) would be capable of infecting an organic brain. Even if it did, programs do not transmit though the air.

David was interfaced with the geth through machinery. He didn't "indoctrinate" anyone, not in the sense you're referring to, and his ability only worked on machines that were connected to his network.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 07:33 .

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

...Then you're just as deluded as I thought. Oh, well.

Pot, meet kettle. That's not an argument, that's an assertion. Assuming you're capable of rational debate, could you elaborate your reasoning, if there are any examples?

Modifié par kaotician, 06 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

...Then you're just as deluded as I thought. Oh, well.

EDIT: This is what really happened--David's mathematical bullcrap allowed him to communicate with the geth at  basic level. This is not because a computer virus is capable of working on an organic mind, this is because David had the entirely unique ability to communicate with the geth. It does not imply that a program (which is what a virus is, FYI) would be capable of infecting an organic brain. Even if it did, programs do not transmit though the air.

We see it happen. Explain what we actually see ie the evidence, some other way, please, rather than strawmanning an argument. As for viruses (computer) not travelling through the air, I betcha by golly I can pick up a virus on a wireless connection to my hub no problem. Over the air transmission, see? Get it? No?

Modifié par kaotician, 06 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

We see it happen. Explain what we actually see ie the evidence, some other way, please, rather than strawmanning an argument.

Yes. We see it happen. It's totally invisible and not at all implied, but it must be there.

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

We see it happen. Explain what we actually see ie the evidence, some other way, please, rather than strawmanning an argument.

Yes. We see it happen. It's totally invisible and not at all implied, but it must be there.

Be honest. You just didn't pay attention. Replay the end and you'll hear the error creep in to David's analysis. Where's it come from?

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

Be honest. You just didn't pay attention. Replay the end and you'll hear the error creep in to David's analysis. Where's it come from?

David is not a Reaper.

You're taking one thing and applying it to another with no reasonable connection to support it. Did David influence the geth in a similar fashion to the Heretic virus? Possibly so. Did Sovereign influence the geth in a similar manner to the Heretic virus? Possibly so. Was the Heretic virus a Reaper method? Not necessarily, and it's never implied--hell, surely Legion would have said something if it were. Is the Heretic virus the same indoctrination method used on organics? Most likely not, because brains and computers work differently. Even if it were, you're taking a real leap to say that we saw proof in the vague, vague, vague ending of Overlord, which makes no attempt to even apply itself to the Reaper plot.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Be honest. You just didn't pay attention. Replay the end and you'll hear the error creep in to David's analysis. Where's it come from?

David is not a Reaper.

You're taking one thing and applying it to another with no reasonable connection to support it. Did David influence the geth in a similar fashion to the Heretic virus? Possibly so. Did Sovereign influence the geth in a similar manner to the Heretic virus? Possibly so. Was the Heretic virus a Reaper method? Not necessarily, and it's never implied--hell, surely Legion would have said something if it were. Is the Heretic virus the same indoctrination method used on organics? Most likely not, because brains and computers work differently. Even if it were, you're taking a real leap to say that we saw proof in the vague, vague, vague ending of Overlord, which makes no attempt to even apply itself to the Reaper plot.

Strawmanning and evasiveness. Not good enough. I'm off to work now, so I'll check back later - but really, replay the end, consider the context, and go from there.

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

consider the context,

You first. More importantly, try explaining how the hell any of this relates you what you're claiming before accusing me of "strawmanning," because your only argument so far has been "OMG WE SAW IT HAPPEN YOU JUST WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTIONS!1!!11!"

[Akizora]

David paniced when he was connected to the Geth network, he couldn't handle all the programs/voices he heard and he wanted to make it all quiet. He tried to escape it by uploading his program elsewhere, he just wanted to get out and he didn't know how else to do it.

Edit: The only other explenation is that he was somehow 'overwhelmed' by the Geth and they took over the program and used his interface to upload themselves.

Modifié par Akizora, 06 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[008Zulu]

Shep was able to be affected (not controlled) because he/she has a multitude of cybernetic implants.

David was effectively a prisoner inside the Geth network.

[Anacronian Stryx]

008Zulu wrote...

Shep was able to be affected (not controlled) because he/she has a multitude of cybernetic implants.

David was effectively a prisoner inside the Geth network.

Was that what happened?

I just thought David took control of all those holographic projectors they have everywhere in the ME universe, After all his point was to show shep what happened - Though the holographic images of David and his brother.

[Tleining]

@ kaotician
could you quote the error you are referring to? Either I'm missing something obvious or i never did what was required to hear that.

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes?

No.

Indoctrination (big I) refers to a specific field-effect produced by the Reapers and various Reaper artifacts. If it comes from another means except the Indoctrination Field, it isn't Indoctrination (bit I).

Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes?

No.

Overlord was not a cross-affecting virus: the Overlord was a VI that could neither overrule/change Humans (organic Indoctrination, bit I), nor did it even forcibly change the views of the Geth. The Overlord VI played to the Geth's religious impulses: it didn't change what they thought, but took advantage of what they felt.

In short, that humans may become Indoctrinated without ever coming into contact with Reaper technology, as I see it.

There are all manner of coercive measures that can force people or things to change their minds. These are not Indoctrination (big I).

Legion may say that the Geth made free choices, but doesn't everyone who gets Indoctrinated feel/think the same to begin with?

You've established a negative standard: by this measure, everyone is Indoctrinated (big I) unless proven otherwise, except you have dismissed any and all signs that disagree with you.

This is an unsustainable standard, and places the entire basis of proof on the accused, not the accuser. And the basis for disproving it are impossible, since now even outsider testimony is invalid.

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

It's a virus that works on both computers and humans alike. It's not a 'computer virus' per se, just because it's worked on computers first

This theory is bad, and you should feel bad.

It's no theory, we actually see/hear this happening at the end of Overlord.

No, we don't.

There is no computer virus that affects Humans. David, an autistic, goes mad from sensory overload, not compulsion, and not a single other organic is ever suggested or implied to have been 'infected.' Not even David is 'infected', he's simply out of control

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

There is no math error.

It's absolutely correct: the square root of 912.04 is 30.2. You can check it with a calculator.

[Rekkampum]

AquamanOS wrote...

Here's a question. Did the team even know about indoctrination at all? Not everyone seems to. The Derelict Reaper guys seem to have no idea what's going on when their memories get messed up, and the one guy can only manage a "Dead God's dream" towards the end. Rarely does anyone mention indoctrination by name. It could just be that people don't know of the danger.

Yeah. The Derelict Reaper could even force people to share memories, so that's on an even worse level. Glad it was destroyed.

With Arrival, I think more context should've been added to the events leading up to Kenson's arrest, since, if we assume she's indoctrinated and fooling Shepard into believing she still wants to destroy the Alpha relay (the only way her betrayal makes any real sense), we would've gotten to see more about the process of indoctrination and Object Rho would've had a more significant role in the story. 

[kaotician]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Look, the Geth Heretic virus is intended to turn other Geth into Reaper followers, so it's Indoctrination, since that's exactly what Reaper Indoctrination does, yes?

No.

Indoctrination (big I) refers to a specific field-effect produced by the Reapers and various Reaper artifacts. If it comes from another means except the Indoctrination Field, it isn't Indoctrination (bit I).

Overload shows the same virus crossing the species barrier into humans, and thus the beginnings of human Indoctrination via the Heretic virus, yes?

No.

Overlord was not a cross-affecting virus: the Overlord was a VI that could neither overrule/change Humans (organic Indoctrination, bit I), nor did it even forcibly change the views of the Geth. The Overlord VI played to the Geth's religious impulses: it didn't change what they thought, but took advantage of what they felt.

In short, that humans may become Indoctrinated without ever coming into contact with Reaper technology, as I see it.

There are all manner of coercive measures that can force people or things to change their minds. These are not Indoctrination (big I).

Legion may say that the Geth made free choices, but doesn't everyone who gets Indoctrinated feel/think the same to begin with?

You've established a negative standard: by this measure, everyone is Indoctrinated (big I) unless proven otherwise, except you have dismissed any and all signs that disagree with you.

This is an unsustainable standard, and places the entire basis of proof on the accused, not the accuser. And the basis for disproving it are impossible, since now even outsider testimony is invalid.

Honestly, Dean what a grab-bag of nonsense and pseudo-reasoning:lol:

[kaotician]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No, to David's mathematical error just at the end of the dlc.

There is no math error.

It's absolutely correct: the square root of 912.04 is 30.2. You can check it with a calculator.

CHECK. THE. ENDING. WE. HEAR. IT. HAPPEN.

'Nuff said, you're infatuated with your own sophistry. See ya!!

[aimlessgun]

Lol Kaotician is trolling so hard. He's not even being subtle about it.