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[frustratemyself]

My mages in DAO were Libertarians.
While things in the Fereldan circle didn't seem quite as savage as in Kirkwall obviously it was not sunshine and bunnies or the rebellian with Uldred would not have happened. You would not have ended up trying to help your best friend escape to avoid being made tranquil as your first quest in the mage origin.
In DAO you didn't see to much of the circle/Chantry opression of mages as that was not the story being told. That is the story being told in DA2.

The Chantry does have a rather hypocritical view point on these topics - you're free to live your life unless it's decided that you are an undesirable that needs to be controlled or wiped out.
Andraste helped free slaves from the Tevinter Imperium but inspired a new kind of slavery in the circle with children being ripped away from their family to spend their lives locked in a cage for the supposed good of all.
Look at the Chantry's reaction to the Qunari and the Dalish. Exalted Marches were led against both because they don't worship the Maker as their god.

My reaction seeing the Chantry go the first time was "OMG Anders what the f*** have you done?" just at the loss of life involved.

I think as a Fereldan mage I would have been horrified at the loss of life but also seen it as a necessary catalyst. As something that had been building for around 1000 years (according to conversations with Anders) something has to snap eventually.
To me it would be something that would inspire hope and action to finally put up a fight for your basic right to live your live instead of being caged (as a circle mage) or running and hiding like a whipped dog (as an apostate) for being what you are.

All that said as real life me I couldn't help but think of 9/11 a little bit.....

[Dark Specie]

Well, whatever reaction the mages had to what happened may not have mattered, because as we know, every single circle rebelled after what Anders did, so it's possible that even the circles where mages were treated reasonably well were overjoyed at what Anders did... That, or they feared the retribution of the Templars and decided to strike first. Or maybe the templars did...

[Amagoi]

Brockololly wrote...

Anarcala wrote...
if you were a mage in one of the Thedas Circles, what would your reaction have been on hearing what happened?

"What a f******* moron."

Seconded!

[Oneiropolos]

Well, we also have to consider that Varric reports that they've lost control of the templars too. Which is an intriguing element. Are the circles really rebelling or are templars refusing to hold them as under deep control and so the circles are instead going "Uhmm....okay. We rebelled. Hey, the Templars said they'd buy us dinner and drinks. Anyone have any contacts on lyrium? They're gonna need it."

Varric says the world is at the brink of war. But we do know David Gaider hinted something had happened in Fereldan's circle, which is why Leliana reacts the way she does when she appears in Sebastian's quest. We're just not told WHAT yet. We still don't know. Kirkwall itself, I suggest anyone who didn't collect the pieces in game, look up the Band of Three on the Dragon Age wiki. GREAT insight into "Why Kirkwall is so freaking screwed up!"

But honestly, I'd think Anders was a murderer. But I'd still completely use it to slip away. Where I'd promptly get regular clothes that aren't robes and I'd go blend in as a refugee to some country or another and take up a normal job and never let anyone see me using magic again. Because if I was IN the circle, I had learned the control necessary to be safe out of the circle...and I wouldn't let any spirits or demons make deals with me. I think alot of what we hear in Kirkwall about how mages are dangerous even if they fall asleep has to do with A) an extreme rare case in Feynriel being a 'dreamer' and Kirkwall's separation from the veil was PURPOSELY THINNED. Which would make things more dangerous for any mage. Draw blood to perform a spell? In another area, that might be okay, but in Kirkwall, the veil is so thin it's like "Hi demon!" My perspective would be just to get the heck away from the other mages and templars and live a normal as possible life.

[Punahedan]

frustratemyself wrote...

My mages in DAO were Libertarians.
While things in the Fereldan circle didn't seem quite as savage as in Kirkwall obviously it was not sunshine and bunnies or the rebellian with Uldred would not have happened. You would not have ended up trying to help your best friend escape to avoid being made tranquil as your first quest in the mage origin.
In DAO you didn't see to much of the circle/Chantry opression of mages as that was not the story being told. That is the story being told in DA2.

The Chantry does have a rather hypocritical view point on these topics - you're free to live your life unless it's decided that you are an undesirable that needs to be controlled or wiped out.
Andraste helped free slaves from the Tevinter Imperium but inspired a new kind of slavery in the circle with children being ripped away from their family to spend their lives locked in a cage for the supposed good of all.
Look at the Chantry's reaction to the Qunari and the Dalish. Exalted Marches were led against both because they don't worship the Maker as their god.

My reaction seeing the Chantry go the first time was "OMG Anders what the f*** have you done?" just at the loss of life involved.

I think as a Fereldan mage I would have been horrified at the loss of life but also seen it as a necessary catalyst. As something that had been building for around 1000 years (according to conversations with Anders) something has to snap eventually.
To me it would be something that would inspire hope and action to finally put up a fight for your basic right to live your live instead of being caged (as a circle mage) or running and hiding like a whipped dog (as an apostate) for being what you are.

All that said as real life me I couldn't help but think of 9/11 a little bit.....

Jowan WAS a Blood Mage. He was dangerous and they could tell. All mages are at risk for that, even if they're careful. That doesn't mean nothing good can come of a mage, but the threat they pose is far more than a mere soldier.

Besides, the answer isn't to remove the voice of reason and the innocent lives. He says no change has ever occurred without drastic measures, but he hasn't even tried. No one that says that has. And besides, now you've got a bunch of blood mages running around Thedas - great work. How do you propose one stops blood magic? How do you keep innocent people from being turned into abominations because they don't know any better? 

The Chantry can take things too far, yes. But the Circle is a place of education, too, and can become so much more if people let it.

The answer to extreme positions isn't more extremism. That just rocks the boat too much and sinks everyone.

[Lithuasil]

Oneiropolos wrote...
But honestly, I'd think Anders was a murderer. But I'd still completely use it to slip away. Where I'd promptly get regular clothes that aren't robes and I'd go blend in as a refugee to some country or another and take up a normal job and never let anyone see me using magic again.

Personally, I doubt that's possible. Not staying clear of demons, that's pretty easy if you're trained. But think about it spending your whole life outside the templars control, doing tasks that could be so much easier if you'd just use the powers at your disposal - that's a massive temptation right there. And I doubt anyone could resist that forever. The threshold might different, for some at lifting a heavy cupboard, for some at driving of the slavers that want to take your village, but eventually, anyone will give in, imho.

[sphinxess]

The more I read in this thread the more the idea of all the circles rising makes no sense....only thing I can see is the Divine went batty and sent the order to use the Rite of Annulment against all the circles...templars would be fighting for and against mages

[NedPepper]

I wouldn't condone what Anders did, but once the ball is rolling...it's time to rise up. I'm not going to sit there and let the Templars gain more power over me or wait for someone to send for the Right of Annulment...I'm getting out and finding a group of responsible mages to hang with.

I have a feeling the mages are going to begin fighting amongst themselves after being freed. The Templars too.

[Vormaerin]

[quote]Lithuasil wrote...

[quote]Oneiropolos wrote...
, doing tasks that could be so much easier if you'd just use the powers at your disposal -
[/quote]

That's part of the problem.  We don't know what real wizards actually do.   We only know what jacked up magical battle machines can do.   There's pretty much nothing on any of Merril's skill trees that I'd find much use for in day to day living.

I'm sure she can actually do a lot of other stuff, but.... who knows what it is.   Maybe magic in Thedas literally is just a choice of weapons and not anything practical.

[Lithuasil]

sphinxess wrote...

The more I read in this thread the more the idea of all the circles rising makes no sense....only thing I can see is the Divine went batty and sent the order to use the Rite of Annulment against all the circles...templars would be fighting for and against mages

Anders broke a dam. It took half a dozen bloodmages, to bring down the ferelden circle. Essentially, once the first mage starts open rebellion, everybody else can choose between rising up with them, or death by templar sword.

[frustratemyself]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

Jowan WAS a Blood Mage. He was dangerous and they could tell. All mages are at risk for that, even if they're careful. That doesn't mean nothing good can come of a mage, but the threat they pose is far more than a mere soldier.

True and half the time I did turn him in to First Enchanter Irving. The other half of the time I helped him without question just looking at the wild eyed desperation of the situation.

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

Besides, the answer isn't to remove the voice of reason and the innocent lives. He says no change has ever occurred without drastic measures, but he hasn't even tried. No one that says that has. And besides, now you've got a bunch of blood mages running around Thedas - great work. How do you propose one stops blood magic? How do you keep innocent people from being turned into abominations because they don't know any better? 

The Chantry can take things too far, yes. But the Circle is a place of education, too, and can become so much more if people let it.

The Circle & Chantry have had a long time to get it right but haven't. Things degenerated to the point we saw in Kirkwall with people thowing away their lives and souls for a chance at freedom.

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

The answer to extreme positions isn't more extremism. That just rocks the boat too much and sinks everyone.

I agree in principle but being reasonable obviously wasn't working. The argument at the end between Meredith & Orsino had him bowing and apologising again.
Kirkwall was a tinderbox waiting for a spark to set it off. If not Anders it would have been someone else. While 2 wrongs don't make a right Anders was doing it for the right reasons. Someone else may not have had such noble intentions.

[Dan-mac RI]

I would go apostate in the chaos. Let the others fight their war, glory isn't my way. I want to live free and big causes are just a way to die. Not to say I won't help other mages, should the opportunity cross my path, just that I won't seek the fight out.

As for the incident itself, slack-jawed amazement seems appropriate for the first few seconds.

[sphinxess]

Lithuasil wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

The more I read in this thread the more the idea of all the circles rising makes no sense....only thing I can see is the Divine went batty and sent the order to use the Rite of Annulment against all the circles...templars would be fighting for and against mages

Anders broke a dam. It took half a dozen bloodmages, to bring down the ferelden circle. Essentially, once the first mage starts open rebellion, everybody else can choose between rising up with them, or death by templar sword.

Yes but look at peoples responses if they were a mage in another circle - they are all over the place - just as many would blast the hotheads as join the fight - and you have more moderate circles where they would say "those crazy Kirkwalls - at it again"

[Lithuasil]

sphinxess wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

The more I read in this thread the more the idea of all the circles rising makes no sense....only thing I can see is the Divine went batty and sent the order to use the Rite of Annulment against all the circles...templars would be fighting for and against mages

Anders broke a dam. It took half a dozen bloodmages, to bring down the ferelden circle. Essentially, once the first mage starts open rebellion, everybody else can choose between rising up with them, or death by templar sword.

Yes but look at peoples responses if they were a mage in another circle - they are all over the place - just as many would blast the hotheads as join the fight - and you have more moderate circles where they would say "those crazy Kirkwalls - at it again"

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro circle system - but with the templars on the edge, even in the most moderate of circles, it takes just one foul egg and a bit of bad luck, to force everybodies hands.

[Vormaerin]

We'll have to see what is going on in the rest of the world. There are hints from the devs that more is going on than we can see. But, Kirkwall excepted, mages reasonably differ on whether the Circles are a good deal. However, if the story that spreads is anything like what Cassandra thought at the beginning: a group of Fereldans infiltrated Kirkwall with the express purpose of destroying the chantry and murdering the Templar commander, then its quite likely that the reaction against the mages is going to be pretty knee jerk in a lot of places. The mages will have no choice but to fight or risk death.

[ransompendragon]

what Anders did was so unnecessary to actually spark what happened in Kirkwall. There had to be a dozen better ways to do that. But at least it was a nice pretty explosion. Everything from then on makes siding with anybody a choice just to get through to the end of the game.

Now for those not actually present, rebellion probably looked like a good option.

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Pretty much all of it, really.

If the Circle was as reasonable as we see it portrayed in DAO, they wouldn't have rebelled.  People tend not to engage in battles with little hope of survival if they're being treated reasonably.

Anders is new the Free Marches when you meet him, all his time in the Circle was in Ferelden's Circle.  So we can assume that's who he's refering to as such when he says things like, "They tell us every day that magic is a sin, a curse from the Maker to show his hate."  (Paraphrased)  What?  They never said anything REMOTELY like that in DAO.  "For all the talk of demons, the most common death I saw for a mage was suicide."  Ok I know we don't see an average day in the life, but I don't recall seeing any suicides.  Nor do I remember any conversations from the mage Warden about how horrific life in the Circle is.  "You hear lots of stories of beatings and rapes.  It hasn't happened to me, but I've been fortunate."  So... he's LUCKY if he's not raped as a MALE?  Good God.  No wonder so many of them off themselves.

Now I know lots of "omgz the terrorist is lying" posts are being typed up as we speak, but I ask this: if he's lying, then why does no one ever call him on it?  How come Aveline never says, "my husband was a templar and you're full of crap"?  The only time in the entire game he definitely lies to Hawke is asking to make the Justice potion.  Which, after getting the stuff, he flatly admits he was lying about.  And instead of lying about why he needs to do something in the Chantry, he just refuses to tell Hawke what it is he needs to do.  I don't believe for a second he was lying about the atrocities committed at the Circle.

And even if someone does believe he was lying... once again... it makes no sense that the Ferelden Circle, like every other Circle, rebelled against the templars as soon as they realized they had ANY chance.  The risk is just way, way too big if they weren't being brutally oppressed.

This is your Anders on spirits. Demons, not even once   

I don't think he's outright lying, he's just blowing things way out of proportion. The whole "your magic is a sin, the maker hates you" thing is in Origins (remember that mage girl next to wrynne, who wanted the circle to be annulled as just atonement). And I'm pretty sure, some incidents do happen. It's just that Anders is completely oversensitive on the matter. And suddenly a dozen death' of old age, and half a dozen suicides, become "the most common source of death was suicide", and suddenly, one or two incidents of a templar abusing his power become "everybody gets raped". Look at every american comedy cop movie ever made, where the black sidekick always complains about racism. That's anders. The problem is there, he's just blowing it up (literally)

And as we've seen twice now, it takes but a handful of mages going bad (uldred) or a single mage blowing up a church, and suddenly everyone in the circle is caught between "death by templars" and fighting for their life, i.e rising up.

I don't believe it.  The rest of the story doesn't make sense unless he was at least pretty close to the truth.  Why would the Circles rebel if they were treated reasonably well?  Why would Anders be so crazed over it in the first place?  It was his hate for the templars that twisted Justice in the first place, so it's not just Justice.  Occam's razor.  The simplest answer is "they didn't have DA2's mage vs templar plot planned when they wrote DAO, thus why it doesn't include any foreshadowing toward it."

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, I'm sure that they did change the status of the Circles somewhat.  They obviously decided that they didn't like the status quo.  That's clear from many dev statements.  They've also said things like "Do you know what's happened in Ferelden's Circle" and whatnot, implying there's a lot we don't know.

I think Anders is fooling himself when he said that he corrupted Justice.   I also think something must have happened after Awakening to turn is "I just want to be a rambling man" into "I hate the Circle" that was willing to merge with Justice, but I think Justice did more damage to Anders than the other way around.   Justice hated the Circle concept a lot more than Anders did in Awakenings, as I recall.

I don't think the Templars need to be corrupt for a significant number of mages to want to break away.  There are plenty of people who just wouldn't like living in a cage, no matter how gilded.  There's also obviously some radicalized factions that have arisen in recent years.   I would not be surprised if the Circles revolted even with a lot of mages like Wynne being pro peace.   Its quite likely that there was a lot of anger over Kirkwall on both sides, with tons of misinformation.  Cassandra clearly has the story all wrong initially.   The Maker only knows what the other 12 Circles and their Templars think happened in Kirkwall.

But I don't believe Anders' propaganda entirely either.  Its just too out there.  Suddenly turning the order of Templars into one with widespread rape, murder,  etc is just....   well, they could do it, but it would not feel real.   They'd just be creating cartoon bad guys.   "oh look, its the total hypocrit church stormtroopers again.  yawn*

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[Anarcala]

Never take a character at their word - certainly not Anders! However there was some truth to his words or there wouldn't have been so much support for the Mages.

Justice and Anders did huge amount of damage to one another. They melded for entirely selfish reasons. Justice wanted to 'live on' and Anders wanted power to do something about the Templars. Anders could have just stood up for himself without becoming an abomination, but he was too scared to go it alone.

I do wonder what Cassandra thought the story was. Obviously it was to do with Hawke being a radical before he/she even got to Kirkwall, but beyond that we know relatively little.

As for me, I'd probably be leading or at least participating in the local rebellion. Never done well in strict environments so I suspect I'd have been near the top of the Templar murder/tranquilise-list.

[lordtru]

I have a question for you....why dig so deep in a game that's so shallow? How can i care about the rest of thedas if i never get to see it?

[gamestress]

Horrified. I don't think his actions are justified by any means to anyone but himself. I think Justice has turned him more than bit peculiar in his obsession to save every mage in Theadas. I love Anders, but Justice made him a terrorist.

[T764]

Depends on the reactions of my circle's first enchanter and knight commander, if they seemed capable of managing the situation without violence stick with them, if not run as opposed to fight,

[LadyVaJedi]

My mage is happy at what happened. Me personally if I was a mage in Fereldan I would be happy.

[sphinxess]

I wouldn't be happy until the chantry stops telling the common people that mages are cursed by the maker - its not like you can settle down anywhere even if there are no Templars

[Rifneno]

Anarcala wrote...

Never take a character at their word - certainly not Anders! However there was some truth to his words or there wouldn't have been so much support for the Mages.

Exactly.  I wouldn't take his word as gospel, especially in regards to the templars treatment of the Circle... but too many things only make sense if he's at least close to truthful.  It's human nature to exaggerate a bit, but I don't think he's lying.

Justice and Anders did huge amount of damage to one another. They melded for entirely selfish reasons. Justice wanted to 'live on' and Anders wanted power to do something about the Templars. Anders could have just stood up for himself without becoming an abomination, but he was too scared to go it alone.

I disagree with all the talk of abominations.  An abomination is someone outright possessed by a demon.  The process seems irreversable, the mage's conscious mind is completely gone and replaced with the demon's, and they're warped into some twisted form.  Anders doesn't fit the criteria even if you did consider Justice a demon now (I think he's now more a neutral force than either good or evil).  But then, pretty much everything about the Anders/Justice situation defies everything we've been told or shown about possession and fade creatures.  I hope they give us a good explanation for him later, because right now it just doesn't make sense.

On a slightly related note... am I the only gullible sap who actually thought the Justice quest would end with Justice being peacefully seperated from Anders?  

I do wonder what Cassandra thought the story was. Obviously it was to do with Hawke being a radical before he/she even got to Kirkwall, but beyond that we know relatively little.

I'm more interested in what she thought Hawke knew before going to the Deep Roads, but that's another thread.  

As for me, I'd probably be leading or at least participating in the local rebellion. Never done well in strict environments so I suspect I'd have been near the top of the Templar murder/tranquilise-list.

Good on you.  Too many people saying they'd happily endure the mental and often physical or sexual abuse of the Chantry and be horrified at Anders.

Modifié par Rifneno, 05 avril 2011 - 01:52 .