117 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

However, what I'm saying is that Mages should have the ability to make decisions for themselves in the same way as the general populace do. If they decide to have children, they should be allowed to do so, and to keep those children.

This is the biggest thing IMO.  I mean mages aren't allowed the most basic and best parts of life.  They can't have a family, they can't have children (at least, keep them), they can't even love one another.  If these things aren't worth fighting for... what the hell is?

Afaik, they can love each other, as long as no offspring comes from it.

No, they're pretty consistant about that point through both games.  They're very vague on the consequences but even in DAO when they portray the Circle treated very well... well, here's a sniplet.

Alistair: Mages aren't forbidden to marry or anything, are they? It's not such an outlandish question.
Wynne: Isn't it? What sort of man would marry a mage, do you think?
Alistair: How about another mage? There are just as many men as there are women within the Circle, as I recall.
Wynne: That sort of union is... not encouraged. Although that does not stop us from seeking out each other's... company from time to time.

[Lithuasil]

Rifneno wrote...

No, they're pretty consistant about that point through both games.  They're very vague on the consequences but even in DAO when they portray the Circle treated very well... well, here's a sniplet.

Alistair: Mages aren't forbidden to marry or anything, are they? It's not such an outlandish question.
Wynne: Isn't it? What sort of man would marry a mage, do you think?
Alistair: How about another mage? There are just as many men as there are women within the Circle, as I recall.
Wynne: That sort of union is... not encouraged. Although that does not stop us from seeking out each other's... company from time to time.

That's exactly my point - they can't officially marry, but other then that, it's free love, as long as you don't do it on the tables in the templar cafeteria.

[KSuri]

Anarcala wrote...

There been a lot of talk in the 'was Anders justified' thread (social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6901812). I'm curious - if you were a mage in one of the Thedas Circles, what would your reaction have been on hearing what happened?

I'd think the idiot doomed us all. Blowing up the chantry just poured a whole lot of fuel on the mage fearing public. I wouldn't doubt for a moment that the whole the Tedas would be calling for the destruction of all mages in retaliation for the Chantry bombing. Worse still would be those Circles with Knight-Commanders itching to cull their Circles would now have a reason to do so. You would now be put in a position to have to fight whether you wanted to or not. Now your life is at stake both inside and outside of the Circle. No one is going to help an apostate escaped mage now that one of them blew a stinking Chantry up.

[Vormaerin]

Anarcala wrote...

Are you kidding?  Every Mage has a whole wealth of abilities that could easily wipe out regiments with just minimal training.

.

Fallacy.   High level PC mages, who by definition are exceptional combat monsters, can do that.  What makes you think the average mage has that much power or the training to use it in that way?

That's like you playing Michael Jordan in all your NBA2K games, then asserting that every dude down at the local YMCA can make those kinds of shots when needed.   Its not true.

We even know its not true, because there are discussions in the DAO Tower quest about guys asking for more combat training for mages and being denied by the First Enchanter.

[errant_knight]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My reaction would be "glad that idiot didn't do that here."

'Great Escape' Anders (from Awakening) was an inspiration to us all. 'Justers' was a flaming fool.

This. Anders lost something important when he joined with Justice, and it wasn't just his sense of humor or the ability to forgo eating human flesh when irked.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 avril 2011 - 08:03 .

[Rifneno]

errant_knight wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My reaction would be "glad that idiot didn't do that here."

'Great Escape' Anders (from Awakening) was an inspiration to us all. 'Justers' was a flaming fool.

This. Anders lost something important when he joined with Justice, and it wasn't just his sense of humor or the ability to forgo eating human flesh when irked.

Cowardice isn't really "something important"...

[errant_knight]

Rifneno wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My reaction would be "glad that idiot didn't do that here."

'Great Escape' Anders (from Awakening) was an inspiration to us all. 'Justers' was a flaming fool.

This. Anders lost something important when he joined with Justice, and it wasn't just his sense of humor or the ability to forgo eating human flesh when irked.

Cowardice isn't really "something important"...

Uh...right. Mass murder is awesome. I forgot.

[AshenEndymion]

Rifneno wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My reaction would be "glad that idiot didn't do that here."

'Great Escape' Anders (from Awakening) was an inspiration to us all. 'Justers' was a flaming fool.

This. Anders lost something important when he joined with Justice, and it wasn't just his sense of humor or the ability to forgo eating human flesh when irked.

Cowardice isn't really "something important"...

Since being too scared to attack his actual target and instead target a civilian is cowardice, Anders proved that he never lost that trait.  So it not being important doesn't really matter.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 05 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Rifneno]

errant_knight wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My reaction would be "glad that idiot didn't do that here."

'Great Escape' Anders (from Awakening) was an inspiration to us all. 'Justers' was a flaming fool.

This. Anders lost something important when he joined with Justice, and it wasn't just his sense of humor or the ability to forgo eating human flesh when irked.

Cowardice isn't really "something important"...

Uh...right. Mass murder is awesome. I forgot.

The system needs to come down.  That's all there is to it.  People keep saying about how you never see any good NPC mages (which is flatly not true, but...), what nobody seems to point out is that something else you never see is the Chantry's system work.  Not one time do we see a templar punished by the system for abuse of power.  They tranquil, murder, and rape constantly but we don't see one single templar even fired for it.  In a laughable twist, we do see some punished for turning on Meredith, but that's it.  Why shouldn't he attack the system?  The system needs to be attacked!  Elthina knows about the abuses going on and turns a blind eye to it, like she does to everything.

It's a battle that needs to be fought.  And really, anyone so cowardly as to not want to fight it... well, no sympathy here.

[AshenEndymion]

Rifneno wrote...

The system needs to come down.  That's all there is to it.  People keep saying about how you never see any good NPC mages (which is flatly not true, but...), what nobody seems to point out is that something else you never see is the Chantry's system work.  Not one time do we see a templar punished by the system for abuse of power.  They tranquil, murder, and rape constantly but we don't see one single templar even fired for it.  In a laughable twist, we do see some punished for turning on Meredith, but that's it.  Why shouldn't he attack the system?  The system needs to be attacked!  Elthina knows about the abuses going on and turns a blind eye to it, like she does to everything.

It's a battle that needs to be fought.  And really, anyone so cowardly as to not want to fight it... well, no sympathy here.

Alric can't exactly be "punished" unless he is raised from the dead....  There are no other claims of abuses articulated about a specific Templar from mage to any person who could do something about it.

Anders claims he knows these abuses happen... but I'll believe Anders on his claim of wonton mage abuse by Templars when my malbari starts speaking the Qun.

[Super_Fr33k]

The topic question is hard to answer without knowing exactly how the circles have fractured, and how the templars have lost control, but I'll try anyway.

I think a key point is that the Chantry, the Templars and the Circles each contain many different views on Anders' actions, and the abuses, on all sides, that drove them. Elthina was kind, but too passive in the face of crisis. Meredith thought she could oppress mages enough to break them. Orsino tolerated blood magic and various evils to protect the Circle's reputation.

With internal dissent likely disrupting every organization, it becomes hard to trust the Chantry or the Templars, which will be dividing into hostile and sympathetic factions. Such divisions would drive unpredictable, inconsistent and unfair behavior. It would, therefore, be crucial to me as a mage to try and ally with whatever reasonable people I could find, to forge a reform coalition, as Thrask was trying to do. It would represent a great opportunity to argue that the Circle cannot protect mages' humanity by dehumanizing them; what person wouldn't revert to dangerous, selfish behavior if they were cut off from family and friends, and berated daily as an unholy time bomb?

With reasonable partners perhaps hard to find, I'd be all about preparing for war, with the goal of forcing a stalemate that could open negotiations.

As to what I'd think about Anders? He chose an imperfect solution in an imperfect world. If Elthina had not died, Meredith would have continued her oppression, driving every mage into desperate madness. She was already conducting a Rite of Annulment, just a slow, trickling one of many years. The question isn't whether it was wrong to kill her. It was, and most games I feel consistent in killing Anders and siding with the mages. The question is whether greater evils will be prevented through her death. It's a question still unanswerable, but "yes" seems a likely answer. How many abominations and blood mages won't occur as a result of defying the Chantry and the Templars?

[Ealos]

I think first my mage Warden would be amazed that either Anders or Justice could have done what they did. Then, since he trusts the hierarchy of Ferelden's Circle he'd probably head there to see opinions of Irving (if still FI), Gregoir and the King. Would probably argue for a reorganisation of the Circles, try to head of direct conflict and find a compromise that will stop extremists on both sides gaining recruits.

[jmadsen]

about time

[Dagon]

If i were a mage i would be like. holy **** now the templars are going to screw us even more,
time to pack my things and head to Tevinter.

[Dimitriov]

ofc

[Rifneno]

Super_Fr33k wrote...

As to what I'd think about Anders? He chose an imperfect solution in an imperfect world. If Elthina had not died, Meredith would have continued her oppression, driving every mage into desperate madness.

David Gaider recently clarified for us that when the grand cleric dies, the knight command does have sole legal authority to call for the Right of Annulment.  I think this isn't getting enough attention.  Elthina is an old woman.  While I don't know exactly how old, it would be no surprise for someone that looks like her to keel over today, in an age where we have medical technology that DA's world would think to be literally and unquestionably divine invention.  Meredith calling for the Right was only hurried by Anders.  It was inevitable.  It was GOING TO HAPPEN.

To clarify, I don't mean this as a reflection on Anders.  I mean this as a reflection on the Chantry, the templars, and their horrifically broken excuse of a system.

The question isn't whether it was wrong to kill her.

I disagree.  Vehemently.  At first I was also in the camp of "Elthina innocent, Anders evil, Anders dies then I go save as many innocents as I can."  After I thought long and hard about things though, I honestly believe that Elthina deserved death more than anyone else in this game.  Everyone else has at least some mitigating factor for their wrongdoing.  I can even see Meredith being portrayed as not inherently bad.  She was on the side of mages' freedom until her apostate sister went batty and killed 70 people.  She played a part in all their deaths by helping her sister stay free (or so she feels, understandably so).  How can anyone come out of that with all their dogs barking?  Toss in the red insanity concentrate she got from Bartrand and she didn't have a chance to be sane in the end.

But I'm rambling, I meant to talk about Elthina...  Elthina knew of the templar's abuses.  She turned a blind eye.  She even basically tells the mages to quit complaining.  These people are seperated from their families and imprisoned, then threatened with tranquility or death by paranoid drug addicts who need little or no evidence to do either, all while hearing daily about how the Maker hates them and enduring other random abuse.  There's even a scene where a templar tells Alain that if he tells anyone that he raped him, he'll be made tranquil.  What the HELL!  And Elthina has the unmitigated gall to say these people shouldn't be complaining?  All while, as previously mentioned, the old bat knew that as soon as the inevitable happened Meredith would kill every mage in Kirkwall.  Elthina?  Innocent?  I think the only crime is that she died fast and painlessly.  She should've been mentally, physically, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many of the people that she refused to protect.

[Zan Mura]

 I can't say as I haven't lived as a mage in Thedas. Perhaps like some mages, the pressure and brainwashing since early childhood took effect, and I'd firmly believe in that I deserved to be more or less imprisoned. Perhaps I was in a Circle where mages were treated fairly, and where their dangers were taught openly and in a friendly manner, helping me respect the need for the order. Or perhaps I'd grown up in an abusive prison with a deep contempt and hatred for it. Perhaps my fellow mages and tempars had bullied me since I was a child, leaving me with a hatred for pretty much all the people, and extremely susceptible to accepting deals with demons and blood magic. Perhaps I'd been unlucky enough to have many of the people I considered my friends and family be rendered tranquil, or killed by templars, to grow hateful of them.

Etc. The answer to the OP's question depends on what kind of life I'd have had. The thing is, a human being is like a formula. Past events form the variables and values that effectively form the result, your modern day you. None of us have any clue what these variables were like for a mage, so a little redundant trying to speculate what we'd do in their shoes. Ask some Finn for instance what they'd done had they been born in the rural areas of Southern Africa? "Oh gee I'd have gotten into school and then become a Java programmer, then I'd maybe travel the globe doing projects-" no, not really. You'd likely just be there, fighting in petty wars, farming and caring for your family, possibly never even learning to read let alone know what the heck Java even is. And eventually go to an early grave mostly unaware of all the things you know and do in your current life.

I know, I'm boring.

[agentofatlas7]

Love or hate the the chantry, a blind nug can see that Anders went too far. - (Sarcastic Hawke)