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[LobselVith8]

Hawke becomes a hero to the respective faction that he supports. If he sides with the mages, there are survivors and his name becomes a rallying cry for the Circles as they set the world on fire and free themselves from the Chantry. If Hawke sided with the templars, he earns the respect of the templars and becomes Viscount, but the mages still rise up because of what happened to the Circle of Kirkwall. Varric makes a point about "hunting the mages," and he either intended this in reference for the Seekers or the Order of Templars (if the Seekers are united with them - but nothing is all that clear at this point). It's likely the rebellion of the Circles played a role in the templars no longer "taking orders" from the Chantry.

The issue of the lyrium trade is interesting, because the Circles of Magi and the Order of Templars need it. It will likely be an issue for the war. We know Kal'Hirol is reclaimed - perhaps the dwarves of this reclaimed thaig might be an alternate source of lyrium?

[Camenae]

Oh my goodness why do people always debate about how many mages there are in the Kirkwall Circle? Does that matter? China says 300,000 people died during the Rape of Nanking, Japan says 100,000. Is it all of a sudden NOT a massacre if *only* 100,000 people died instead of 300,000?

[tausra]

Mage Hawke hates Blood Mages, and refuses to work with them. The Circle has a boat load of Blood Mages, including the First Enchanter. Therefore, Mage Hawk must not side with Mages.

[Camenae]

Personally, I sided with the Templars in my Mage play through, one because I wanted to see how the game plays out this way, and two, I thought that since Meredith is calling the annulment ANYWAY, that I could do more good and protect more mages if I overtly sided with Meredith and then used my power and influence from WITHIN her forces.

Meredith would have no cause to listen to my pleas for mercy for the non-blood mages if I went and rebelled alongside the mages. Any influence I might have had as Champion would have been lost with her. And then any lives I want to save, it wouldn't be as simple as her glaring at me while I talked her and Cullen out of it, no, I would have to earn every single one with blood. Dunno if I'm making sense...

[sylvanaerie]

Camenae wrote...

Personally, I sided with the Templars in my Mage play through, one because I wanted to see how the game plays out this way, and two, I thought that since Meredith is calling the annulment ANYWAY, that I could do more good and protect more mages if I overtly sided with Meredith and then used my power and influence from WITHIN her forces.

Meredith would have no cause to listen to my pleas for mercy for the non-blood mages if I went and rebelled alongside the mages. Any influence I might have had as Champion would have been lost with her. And then any lives I want to save, it wouldn't be as simple as her glaring at me while I talked her and Cullen out of it, no, I would have to earn every single one with blood. Dunno if I'm making sense...

making perfect sense to me, this was my Hawke's viewpoint as well.

[Mnemnosyne]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally had more in mind that most would remain in the circles and only a select few can go work in specific areas in the outside world. At least as a first step.

This already seems to be the case.  At least in Ferelden we see mages that appear to be Circle mages working for various nobles and such, presumably with Circle approval.  In order to do so they apparently need to put in a request and have it approved, but it is clear mages can take jobs outside the Circle, if those jobs are approved.

ddv.rsa wrote...

That was very odd. Then again, you've
already proven yourself as her ally if she's leaving Anders in your
hands. I doubt she thinks you'll let him go. She's probably giving you
the "pleasure" of killing him.

That's not accurate - she always leaves Anders in your hands, even if you have been solidly pro-mage, supported Orsino in his argument, and side with the mages.  She doesn't care about Anders, she's off to annul the Circle as she had been planning all along.

Vormaerin wrote...

So Meredith and the Arishok were both
utterly incompetent?   If Meredith had that kind of force, there was
never any chance of the Arishok doing more than killing off a few folks
who happened to be around the palace at the time and then getting
massacred by the Templars.

And that assumes Meredith is too
stupid to pay any attention to the Arishok with her swarms of troops,
some of whom were doubtless at the Chantry around the corner from the
palace.  How the Qunari got from the docks to high town without any of
these thousands of templars being visible ANYWHERE is
quite....interesting.

The Qunari situation in Kirkwall has always not really made sense to me even from the start.  A ship containing ~200 people crashes and they become the Qunari in Kirkwall.  At some point a pretty significant number defect to become Tal-Vashoth (I'm pretty sure you kill at least 50 Tal-Vashoth during the course of the game) and even more have been killed by Hawke - the encounter with Arvaraad has you killing about a dozen Qunari, for instance - which means that at the time of the attack, the Arishok likely has no more than 100 men at his disposal.

Kirkwall being a pretty large city, and even given that one Qunari might be worth several city guards, it seems incredulous to imagine that the city guard alone cannot deal with the Qunari issue.  However, they will suffer enough losses that it's not worth it for the Viscount to press the issue unless the Qunari press it first.  As for how the Qunari made their surprise attack successfully, it's not as though they were under constant watch by a force strong enough to contain them.  That would have angered the Arishok in the first place, and it wasn't feasible to have hundreds of guardsmen on constant duty watching the Qunari for years.  The same applies to the templars, and add to that the fact that their job is guarding the mages, so at any given time, the majority of them are at the Gallows, not wandering the city streets in huge military units.

I never really got the idea that Meredith was concerned that they wouldn't be able to defeat the Qunari, only that there would be a significant amount of damage and losses in the battle, which is true - if we assume each Qunari warrior can take out 2-5 templars in battle, that meanst two to five hundred men die in the battle, plus civilian casualties plus collateral damage from Qunari explosives.  I similarly don't think Petrice would have incited a war with the Qunari if she had thought they were going to lose to the Qunari - she knew they would win, the difference between her and others was that the losses incurred during that fight were entirely acceptable to her.

The Arishok is the only one who makes no sense, because he had to know there was no way he could possibly win.  But then, perhaps he was just tired of the situation and preferred to justify a death while attempting to take action over sitting there uselessly while having more and more of his men whittled away over the years.

[Wulfram]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Just saying, no explanation is given why the templars revolt at the end. This made no sense to me supporting the mages if Hawke was the 'rallying force' behind what happened (as Varric claims in the tale). This made no sense to me as a mage supporting Hawke since where would be the templars motivation to revolt than to rally around the figurehead (as Varric does suggest).
Why would the templars revolt? They are addicted to Lyrium and most of them don't seem to be 'mage sympathetic' though I imagine a few are (as we were presented in the game). Even those who are sympathetic believed it was Meredith, not the Circle to blame for the problems in Kirkwall. Even as bad as things are, Thrask never asks you to free mages, he wants you to recover the ones in the cave and was apparently okay with you seeking another avenue for Feynriel's training. Whether or not he agreed with those decisions is beside the point, he went along with it, he didn't suggest it.
Templars would have to be under KC's as bad as Meredith to motivate them to revolt and it took 7 years and a complete descent into chaos for them to turn on Meredith herself.
Just saying FOR ME, for the story, templars revolting made more sense on a templar run than mage siding. Not saying it has to make sense for anyone else.

You're assuming that the Templars are revolting against the Knight Commanders in favour of the mages.  The impression I got was very much the opposite - they're revolting against the Chantry so that they can be harsher on the mages.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Wulfram wrote...

You're assuming that the Templars are revolting against the Knight Commanders in favour of the mages.  The impression I got was very much the opposite - they're revolting against the Chantry so that they can be harsher on the mages.

Templars don't normally march to war, and don't normally have the right to occupy villages or towns in their hunt for apostates.  With mages across Thedas in revolt, they probably decided to seize control much like Meredith did after the viscount's death.  Alistair and Teagan even mention that they'd been having trouble with templars in Fereldan, so perhaps this wasn't an isolated problem.

[BoneNinja]

I'm playing my templar siding mage play through now. My justification is the same as several others here. I realize that I (my character) was damn lucky and raised and taught the way most apostates aren't. I'm stronger, smarter, *insert several other arrogant adjectives* and therefore I don't need to be in the circle, however almost all mages do need to be in the circle to be protected from themselves and taught to manage their magic. It's harder to take this standpoint at first because your father and sister are clearly better as apostates as well. But the more "free" mages you encounter in the game the more and more it becomes easier to see the need for the circle.

My mage believes that if things were already radically different, mages were free and attended school during the day to learn how to handle their magic and keep demons at bay type of thing, then mages likely would be fine being free, raised without fear and desperation to have more power, but they also need to be kept in close check otherwise Fereldan and the Free Marches turn into Tevinter, which isn't the answer either. The mages need to be watched and kept in control. But ultimately, so do the Templars. They need someone stronger overseeing them as well. Just like the mages, for every good mage there is, there are 10 bad ones. For every good Templar there is, there are 10 bad ones. Siding with the Templars and gaining power politically would allow her to do more about it. That's just my mage though.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke becomes a hero to the respective faction that he supports. If he sides with the mages, there are survivors and his name becomes a rallying cry for the Circles as they set the world on fire and free themselves from the Chantry. If Hawke sided with the templars, he earns the respect of the templars and becomes Viscount, but the mages still rise up because of what happened to the Circle of Kirkwall. Varric makes a point about "hunting the mages," and he either intended this in reference for the Seekers or the Order of Templars (if the Seekers are united with them - but nothing is all that clear at this point). It's likely the rebellion of the Circles played a role in the templars no longer "taking orders" from the Chantry.

The issue of the lyrium trade is interesting, because the Circles of Magi and the Order of Templars need it. It will likely be an issue for the war. We know Kal'Hirol is reclaimed - perhaps the dwarves of this reclaimed thaig might be an alternate source of lyrium?

Unfortionatly (or fortunionatly, sort of unclear as of now) Kal'Hirol seems to be under Ferelden as well... i think? lol So the war might cause problems for good ol' ferelden =(... Hopefully they can get a stranglehold on it though and use it to help support the side they want (Most likely mages if Alistair is King due to him being potrayed as a mage sympathizer) and then recruit them into the Ferelden Millitary giving them their lyrium and freedom etc.. Of course they need to ensure Orzammar gets paid and all =D

[Augustei]

Wulfram wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Just saying, no explanation is given why the templars revolt at the end. This made no sense to me supporting the mages if Hawke was the 'rallying force' behind what happened (as Varric claims in the tale). This made no sense to me as a mage supporting Hawke since where would be the templars motivation to revolt than to rally around the figurehead (as Varric does suggest).
Why would the templars revolt? They are addicted to Lyrium and most of them don't seem to be 'mage sympathetic' though I imagine a few are (as we were presented in the game). Even those who are sympathetic believed it was Meredith, not the Circle to blame for the problems in Kirkwall. Even as bad as things are, Thrask never asks you to free mages, he wants you to recover the ones in the cave and was apparently okay with you seeking another avenue for Feynriel's training. Whether or not he agreed with those decisions is beside the point, he went along with it, he didn't suggest it.
Templars would have to be under KC's as bad as Meredith to motivate them to revolt and it took 7 years and a complete descent into chaos for them to turn on Meredith herself.
Just saying FOR ME, for the story, templars revolting made more sense on a templar run than mage siding. Not saying it has to make sense for anyone else.

You're assuming that the Templars are revolting against the Knight Commanders in favour of the mages.  The impression I got was very much the opposite - they're revolting against the Chantry so that they can be harsher on the mages.

a fair few of the Templars in Kirkwall did rebell and its expected that maybe a few more across thedas will as well, I mean loyalist templars are in the majority but not all of the Templars are completely loyal to the order in such a way.. We see many templars praying with mages and fighting alongside mages in DA2 anyway and defying their knight commander and calling her mad and such. Some will rebell against their Knight-Commanders but not on a very large scale I wouldn't imagine.

[BoneNinja]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You're assuming that the Templars are revolting against the Knight Commanders in favour of the mages.  The impression I got was very much the opposite - they're revolting against the Chantry so that they can be harsher on the mages.

Templars don't normally march to war, and don't normally have the right to occupy villages or towns in their hunt for apostates.  With mages across Thedas in revolt, they probably decided to seize control much like Meredith did after the viscount's death.  Alistair and Teagan even mention that they'd been having trouble with templars in Fereldan, so perhaps this wasn't an isolated problem.

My take was similiar to this but not quite the same. I definitely go the impression the Templars were revolting and definitely NOT on the same side as the mages. This is especially clear if you have played both sides of the argument through the game. The Seeker doesn't say the Champion is the only one that could still reason with the Mages AND Templars at the end of the game. It's one or the other. But I'm not entirely sure yet what they are doing. It may be that they are seeking more power and to truely oppress and tranquil all mages. But there seem to be an awful lot of Templars that are true to the Order and that doesn't mean oppressing and tranquilling all mages. It just means watching over them. Maybe they have their own agenda to be free from the Chantry to rule over the mages as a sepeate entity (althought not necessarily bad one if done right) maybe it's entirely a different objective that we haven't gotten the full picture of yet.  Maybe they are revolting within their own Order, the loyalists against teh more open minded Templars. Regardless, I don't think it was made clear enough exactly what Cause the Templars were revolting for.

Modifié par BoneNinja, 05 avril 2011 - 02:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Koyasha wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally had more in mind that most would remain in the circles and only a select few can go work in specific areas in the outside world. At least as a first step.

This already seems to be the case.  At least in Ferelden we see mages that appear to be Circle mages working for various nobles and such, presumably with Circle approval.  In order to do so they apparently need to put in a request and have it approved, but it is clear mages can take jobs outside the Circle, if those jobs are approved.

I was under the impression that these were apostates that nobles secretly hired. I very much doubt that the Chantry doesn't mind nobles hiring private mage bodyguards.

The Tranquils seem to be the most visible members of the Circle, which leads me to believe that it's very rare for the others to be in the outside world.  In any case, even if very few of them can go to the outside, I think that can be expanded and joib opportunities can be created specifically for those mages. 

[Augustei]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You're assuming that the Templars are revolting against the Knight Commanders in favour of the mages.  The impression I got was very much the opposite - they're revolting against the Chantry so that they can be harsher on the mages.

Templars don't normally march to war, and don't normally have the right to occupy villages or towns in their hunt for apostates.  With mages across Thedas in revolt, they probably decided to seize control much like Meredith did after the viscount's death.  Alistair and Teagan even mention that they'd been having trouble with templars in Fereldan, so perhaps this wasn't an isolated problem.

Aren't Templars normally the ones heading the Exalted Marches? So i'd imagine Marching to war isn't an extremely rare occurrence for them.. As for seizing control of villages, During an Exalted March they would enforce some form of Marshal law if the village can be of use to them or in need of defending and would assume control of the village.. I would guess its happened before.. But yeah only during Exalted Marches, but the right to do this would probably exist.. This time they wont have the Divines Support or Allowance however... They might be able to BS a bit though lol, i mean most of Thedas respects and listens to the Templars from what I read in the DAO codex. So I would imagine it wouldn't be to difficult

[DrFumb1ezX]

 Mr. Priestly, we could use a lockdown.....Too much hate flowing.....Stick to the topic....Smile and nod....

[Vormaerin]

soccerchick wrote...

 Mr. Priestly, we could use a lockdown.....Too much hate flowing.....Stick to the topic....Smile and nod....

Huh?  What hate are you talking about?  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any ad hominems, vulgarity, or other signs that disagreement was more than just that.  People are allowed to disagree, you know.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Vormaerin wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

 Mr. Priestly, we could use a lockdown.....Too much hate flowing.....Stick to the topic....Smile and nod....

Huh?  What hate are you talking about?  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any ad hominems, vulgarity, or other signs that disagreement was more than just that.  People are allowed to disagree, you know.

I meant hate as in, people couldn't stop arguing. That's not what this thread is for. And I've seen threads devolve into hate. Kinda wanna stick to the topic so it doesn't happen. 
We are supposed to be justifying whether or not we can support templars or mages, not snidely telling each other about how many mages live in some place.
And no, people are not allowed to disagree. At least, not without paying for pie first.

Modifié par soccerchick, 05 avril 2011 - 08:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can't make a thread with the words templar, mage, and support in the title without expecting hate getting passed around like candy.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Camenae]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't make a thread with the words templar, mage, and support in the title without expecting hate getting passed around like candy.

Lol, this is very true.