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[Mnemnosyne]

Axekix wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I have a harder time not supporting the Templars rather than the reverse, quite honestly.

Lots of Reasons...your mother was murdered by a mage doing evil experiments outside Chantry oversight. That's a big one right There. Research that Orsinio helped with (You can find his initial on a note right in the evil lair)

This one is a pretty big reason in and of itself.  I mean considering that, IDK how you can trust him enough to side with him.

How would you ever know that that's him?  The note is signed O.  How many people have a name starting with O in Thedas?  Hell, in Kirkwall, even?  Yeah, we have the advantage of metagaming since there's a limited number of named characters in the game it is theoretically possible to deduce that it is Orsino (although I seriously doubt most people did so even given this advantage - I certainly did not deduce that myself, not until after I heard him mention Quentin at the end) but there is no way for Hawke to deduce that.

[Sarielle]

Hmm, Leandra would be a biggie. I hadn't thought about that, because last time, I played a mage too and played her as basically a decent person. (Had no sense of when a joke was appropriate or not, but still, a decent person, lol).

Thanks everyone. You've given me a lot to go on. I want to be semi-consistent throughout, as I'd like to see rivalries/friendships I didn't see the first time around, too.

I still have issues with the Right of Annulment, if we're going the "bloodmages are bad, there are limits" route (which, actually, Jubilee did. She and Cullen got along pretty well.) If you side with Meredith, though, you're sentencing all those mages who WEREN'T abominations-in-training (and you do see...well...one, that you helped escape and that seems to retain her decency) to death.

Meh. I guess "greater good" might cover it. -ponder-

Modifié par Sarielle, 04 avril 2011 - 11:45 .

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...

I certainly did not deduce that myself, not until after I heard him mention Quentin at the end) but there is no way for Hawke to deduce that.

Yeah, but that's a flaw in the game's story.  If my mother was found murdered by a mage and I had a note from someone in the Circle saying "here's some materials to study, good luck", you can bet that I would not have dropped it.  I'd've shoved that note down Orsino and Meredith's throat and then, most likely, it would by my rage that triggered the showdown between the two instead of the twit Anders.

Which is probably why we can't do that, because then the chaos might have been contained to Kirkwall.

[Cutlass Jack]

Koyasha wrote...

How would you ever know that that's him?  The note is signed O.  How many people have a name starting with O in Thedas?  Hell, in Kirkwall, even?  Yeah, we have the advantage of metagaming since there's a limited number of named characters in the game it is theoretically possible to deduce that it is Orsino (although I seriously doubt most people did so even given this advantage - I certainly did not deduce that myself, not until after I heard him mention Quentin at the end) but there is no way for Hawke to deduce that.

I deduced it was him the moment I saw the note. What other circle mage with a name starting with 'O' would have access to esoteric magical texts Quentin needed? Proving it was another matter. I couldn't prove it till the end, or do anything about it. But I figured it out immediately.

I was less astute in figuring out that the Relic was making Meridith insane. Which is sad because I had noticed the funky evil looking sword...and I noticed her 'crazy' looks being very similar to Bertrand's. But I never put Two and Two together before the reveal.

[AngryFrozenWater]

In my latest playthrough Hawke is a blood mage. It seems he can only become a viscount if he sides with the templars. So, that's the plan. A viscount may not have enough power, but it is better to sit in that position than to roam around with no power at all. If it was up to that mage Hawke wouldn't stop there.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Lithuasil]

Koyasha wrote...
How would you ever know that that's him?  The note is signed O.  How many people have a name starting with O in Thedas?  Hell, in Kirkwall, even?  Yeah, we have the advantage of metagaming since there's a limited number of named characters in the game it is theoretically possible to deduce that it is Orsino (although I seriously doubt most people did so even given this advantage - I certainly did not deduce that myself, not until after I heard him mention Quentin at the end) but there is no way for Hawke to deduce that.

I blame the Orlesians.

[Mnemnosyne]

The purpose of the Rite of Annulment is primarily because of a Circle that had blood mages hiding in it and nobody was willing to turn them in. The same thing applies to the Circle in Kirkwall - nobody is turning in the real troublemakers, so they are all just as responsible. There's no way it becomes that widespread without the majority of the mages in the Circle knowing the identity of at least one person who's breaking the rules.

So if your character strongly believes that blood magic itself is evil, then there's a very strong argument to be made that annulling the circle is a completely reasonable thing to do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vormaerin wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

I certainly did not deduce that myself, not until after I heard him mention Quentin at the end) but there is no way for Hawke to deduce that.

Yeah, but that's a flaw in the game's story.  If my mother was found murdered by a mage and I had a note from someone in the Circle saying "here's some materials to study, good luck", you can bet that I would not have dropped it.  I'd've shoved that note down Orsino and Meredith's throat and then, most likely, it would by my rage that triggered the showdown between the two instead of the twit Anders.

Yep. That would have been an opportunity to have actual character development for Orsino, who virtually had none.

They could have done it in a way that wouldn't have started an all out war. Like have you just talk to Orsino, who can mislead and convince Hawke not to tell Meredith, by blaming someone else.

[AlienZombies]

My mage who supports the templars is terrified of the thought of being made an abomination. His aversion to demons is off the charts. I wish there was a "run screaming" option every time you hear blood magic even mentioned. In fact, if he had the choice, my Hawke would have turned himself over to the Gallows first thing. He'd rather be imprisoned than be made a puppet for some Fade spirit. If demons were bacteria, he would bathe in Lysol.

So that's my reasoning, anyway.

[_Aine_]

Sarielle wrote...

Doing a second playthrough, and Bethany is such a sweetie...so I don't really ever see myself being able to distance myself enough from that (plus my family is very important to me irl, also hard to distance from) to go pro-Templar as a non-mage. That said, I DO want to pursue this avenue at some point....which really only leaves me as a mage...supporting the Templars.

Thing is, I'm having trouble making it make sense. I need to have a pretty solid idea of a character before I start, and I just can't come up with one for this.

If anyone else has gone down this path, what was your character's justification?

Mine was against blood magic, at any cost. Then, the further into the story I went, the more my Hawke believed that the only way to have justice for the mages, was to "infiltrate" the ranks of the templars by getting friendly with them.  She truly believed that with her "title" she would be able to sway them not to perform the rite, IF she had them trust her enough by the end.  

It was the ONLY way I could comprehend it, it was tough at first but ended VERY satisfactory, honestly.  A better ending than my bloody mage-supporting one.  *grumbles*  

[Sarielle]

Hmm, that's an interesting playthough too, Shanti.

EDIT: I -had- thought about a self-loathing mage, lol.

Modifié par Sarielle, 05 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sarielle wrote...

Doing a second playthrough, and Bethany is such a sweetie...so I don't really ever see myself being able to distance myself enough from that (plus my family is very important to me irl, also hard to distance from) to go pro-Templar as a non-mage. That said, I DO want to pursue this avenue at some point....which really only leaves me as a mage...supporting the Templars.

Thing is, I'm having trouble making it make sense. I need to have a pretty solid idea of a character before I start, and I just can't come up with one for this.

If anyone else has gone down this path, what was your character's justification?

Reducing the overall loss of life.

Siding with the mages does not spare them, they either flee and are hunted down, or they defend themselves and the Divine sends an army against Kirkwall.

[TheBlackBaron]

arcelonious wrote...

But doesn't siding with Meredith mean that you're siding with her decision for the Rite of Annulment, which is ultimately mass murder?

Hawke may not necessarily understand that, though, and for that matter at least some Templars don't view wiping out all of the mages to be necessary. Witness Cullen remarking that executing the mages that have surrendered is excessive. 

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,]

Understand from the start that a mage that supports the templars to the very end is a hypocrit especially given that Meredith is annulin the circle for a crime they didn't commit.  That said, there are reason why a mage-Hawke might go pro-templar:

1.  Powerhungry bastard.  This is the mage that doesn't care about other mages as long as he (or she) gets his.  The Templars are doing him a huge favor by removing the competition so why not lend a hand, and be hailed as a hero in the process...perhaps even make history by being the first non-Tevinter ruling noble (Viscount).  In this case, you go with the power, and Meredith, crazy fruitloop that she is, has the power so you smile and nod and act like a good mage while you chuckle behind your false smile.

At the end this is the sort of mage that Meridith believes any pro-Templar mage is, and she need not be wrong.

2.  You can be (as mentioned before) a self-hating mage.  The only problem I have with this, is that if so, you should have turned yourself into the Templars five minutes after landing in Kirkwell.  The same goes for the Andrastian Loyalist mage.

3.  Similiar to 1. but a lot more benevolent, you may decide to take the title to heart and BE the Champion of Kirkwell and that means riding the tiger....and Meredith has all the power.  In this case you play it just like one except you hope and pray you get an opportuniy to stick a knife in Meredith's back hopefully with the support of the Templars so you can rebuild and restructure with political power into something sane.  That's almost what seems to really happen but then we are told with no explaination whatsoever that it didn't work out.....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

But doesn't siding with Meredith mean that you're siding with her decision for the Rite of Annulment, which is ultimately mass murder?

Hawke may not necessarily understand that, though, and for that matter at least some Templars don't view wiping out all of the mages to be necessary. Witness Cullen remarking that executing the mages that have surrendered is excessive. 

The Rite of Annulment is very clear.  No surrender.  All circle mages must die no matter what, from the youngest child to the oldest enchanter.  It is legal mass murder.  No getting around it.

Knight Captain Cullen of all people doesn't have the stomache for mass murder when it isn't clearly justified, but make no mistake.  Cullen engages in an open act of mutiny on this point.

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

Well, Meredith isn't wrong about the need to Annul the circle. But her pretext is obviously just that. Also, Hawke at least is well aware that Anders is in close contact with mages within the Circle, so its not unreasonable to believe he did not act entirely alone.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Rite of Annulment is very clear.  No surrender.  All circle mages must die no matter what, from the youngest child to the oldest enchanter.  It is legal mass murder.  No getting around it.

-Polaris

*sigh*  Authority for summary execution is not the same as "no discretion".   The Rite of Annulment means that every mage in the Circle is declared apostate and can be executed.  It does not /require/ everyone to be executed, though its not expected to be used when such extreme measures aren't needed.

[ddv.rsa]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, Meredith isn't wrong about the need to Annul the circle. But her pretext is obviously just that. Also, Hawke at least is well aware that Anders is in close contact with mages within the Circle, so its not unreasonable to believe he did not act entirely alone.

Why do you think she is justified?

[ddv.rsa]

Koyasha wrote...

The purpose of the Rite of Annulment is primarily because of a Circle that had blood mages hiding in it and nobody was willing to turn them in. The same thing applies to the Circle in Kirkwall - nobody is turning in the real troublemakers, so they are all just as responsible. There's no way it becomes that widespread without the majority of the mages in the Circle knowing the identity of at least one person who's breaking the rules.

So if your character strongly believes that blood magic itself is evil, then there's a very strong argument to be made that annulling the circle is a completely reasonable thing to do.

You make an excellent point.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, Meredith isn't wrong about the need to Annul the circle. But her pretext is obviously just that. Also, Hawke at least is well aware that Anders is in close contact with mages within the Circle, so its not unreasonable to believe he did not act entirely alone.

Actually she is and Knight Captain Cullen of all people points out why.  The Rite of Annulment is an action of last resort when nothing of the circle can be salvaged.  The Knight Captian points out that the situation was far more dire in Fereldan but ultimately the circle was able to be salvaged.   He openly questions that no one in the circle can be salvaged especially when Orisino in the end backs down and offers full cooperation in turning the tower upside down for bloodmagic.

Also read up on the Rite of Annulment.  Once declared all circle mages must be killed.  There is no discretion.  What Cullen did was open mutiny and every Templar knew it.

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

ddv.rsa wrote...

\\Why do you think she is justified?

The Rite of Annulment is called when a Circle is so corrupt that is not longer considered possible to sort the wheat from the chaff.  We know that there are many blood mages in the Circle.  We know that someone in the Circle was helping Quentin.   We know that Anders the terrorist was working with members of the Circle.   We know that the Seekers and the Divine have evidence that the Circle of Kirkwall is working with Resolutionists and we see first hand that these Resolutionists are willing to murder Church officials.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Rite of Annulment is very clear.  No surrender.  All circle mages must die no matter what, from the youngest child to the oldest enchanter.  It is legal mass murder.  No getting around it.

-Polaris

*sigh*  Authority for summary execution is not the same as "no discretion".   The Rite of Annulment means that every mage in the Circle is declared apostate and can be executed.  It does not /require/ everyone to be executed, though its not expected to be used when such extreme measures aren't needed.

Read up on the Rite of Annulement.  It's not just the authority to kill all circle mages no matter what, but the positive directive to leave no circle mage alive.  That's why it's an order of last resort.  It's basically amputating (or mass murder as I perfer to call it) of an entire magical community.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Why do you think she is justified?

The Rite of Annulment is called when a Circle is so corrupt that is not longer considered possible to sort the wheat from the chaff.  We know that there are many blood mages in the Circle.  We know that someone in the Circle was helping Quentin.   We know that Anders the terrorist was working with members of the Circle.   We know that the Seekers and the Divine have evidence that the Circle of Kirkwall is working with Resolutionists and we see first hand that these Resolutionists are willing to murder Church officials.

None of that means the circle is beyond redemption enough to justify the mass murder of at least hundreds if not thousands of people most of whom are inoocent.  There is NO EVIDENCE (and plenty of contary evidence) that Anders had any help from the cirfcle in bombing the cathedral.  Meridith even aknowledge this when Orsino point that out and doesn't care.  She virtually dances with glee at the thought of mass mage slaughter.  Watch the scenes.  tt's borderline sick.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, Meredith isn't wrong about the need to Annul the circle. But her pretext is obviously just that. Also, Hawke at least is well aware that Anders is in close contact with mages within the Circle, so its not unreasonable to believe he did not act entirely alone.

Why do you think she is justified?

The Circle is lost.  There is no recovery for it.  It is headed by a maleficar.  Maleficarum freely practice their craft within the Circle.  And the mages of the Circle do not even attempt to turn in the Maleficarum amongst them.  Rather they protect each other from punishment, and therefore all are complicit.  Kirkwall is the triumphant example as to why the Rite of Annulment should be an option for the Templars.

But the pretext for call is just that, it does not change the fact that the Kirkwall Circle needed to be Annuled.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Also read up on the Rite of Annulment.  Once declared all circle mages must be killed.  There is no discretion.  What Cullen did was open mutiny and every Templar knew it.

-Polaris

Cullen doesn't know everything you do.  He thinks he's right, but he's not.

And I'm not getting into another argument with you about how you alone understand the meaning of subjective, limited sample texts of fantasy world lore. 

Cullen mutinied because he defied his superior's orders.  But I find it unlikely that if he was legally obliged to kill everyone that he would be supported by the rest against that order.   But who knows?  We certainly don't have the information to know for sure.