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[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Somehow, I think Cullen knows more about the inner workings of the Rite of Annulment than Polaris does....

And as such, he probably wasn't "defying orders" or "mutinying" at all....

We are told by multiple people including Cullen in both games and in the various bits of game lore that the Rite of Annulment requires the execution of all circle mages.  That's established game lore.  Cullen mutinies because he doesn't think the Rite is justified and says so.

-Polaris

Yeah... the statement still stands that Cullen likely knows a tad more about how the Rite of Annulment works than you or I do.  Unless you live in Thedas?  And happen to be a Templar?

Right and Cullen is my primary source.  He states flat out that that Rite of Annulment requires the execution of all circle mages no exceptions and then on his own nickle (invoking the Champion) countermands it for the mages that surrendered.  Merdith is fit to be tied.  She wanted to murder Cullen on the spot but knew the templars would not side with her.

-Polaris

Yeah... No he doesn't.  Not in DA2 anyway.  So forgive me when I say that you'll need to prove that he does.  And if he says it in Origins, he is not only 7+ years younger, but he wasn't advocating the invocation of the Rite, just the death of all the mages.

It should also be noted he doesn't countermand the order.  Just asks for leniency (based on his knowledge of the Rite that you don't have), and carries out the order to kill them if leniency is not given....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yeah, its totally an ass-pull when an author defines something never once discussed anywhere. This isn't a conversation anymore. You can rant about your all knowingness by yourself.

No the author clearly wanted to win an internet argument with an unknown so bad, so bad that he'd lose sleep over it, that he changed the lore.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Yeah, its totally an ass-pull when an author defines something never once discussed anywhere. This isn't a conversation anymore. You can rant about your all knowingness by yourself.

No the author clearly wanted to win an internet argument with an unknown so bad, so bad that he'd lose sleep over it, that he changed the lore.

Laugh all you want, but that is apparently what happened because until DG changed it by fiat the existing lore at least strongly suggested that Meridith's order was not only unjustified but illegal.  I personally believe that DG want's Meridithto seem as 'justified' as possible given that most (per DAO playdata anyway) seem to side with the mages (by overwhelming numbers in fact)

And it was discussed and talked about before and I even gave the codex cites backing what I said at the time.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sure, good for you.

[Mnemnosyne]

Vormaerin wrote...

There's not thousands.  Its unlikely there are even hundreds.   But whatever.  Meredith being gleeful is entirely unrelated to the necessity of something.

It's got to be hundreds, at least, given what we see in the game.  And if Anders isn't exaggerating when he says that the tunnel leading out of the Gallows has saved the lives of 'hundreds' of mages, then it's got to be at least a couple thousand total mages in the Gallows.

Madame Rose Crimsynn wrote...

How do I support the templars as a mage, eh?

For
me, it's because I see the practicality of having the Templar Order and
the Circles. I would not be comfortable sitting next to someone who
could make things explode with their mind or get possessed by demons and
turn into a monster unless they had proper training to control their
power as well understanding and are willing to resist the temptations of
a demon. I do not see magic or mages as evil-- I see what mages can do
with the magic if they have bad or uneducated intentions as evil.

Make sense?

Keep in mind that supporting the templars in this case doesn't simply mean supporting the existence of the templar order and the Circles, but supporting the annullment of the Circle of Kirkwall, because that's what it comes down to.  A person can fully support the templar order and Circles, but be opposed to annulling the Circle of Kirkwall and therefore have to support the mages in this instance.

[Sarielle]

Uh, can we stay on topic please? There have been some more interesting ideas out there but this...other conversation is kind of clogging it up.

I am still reading, by the way. I'm just also at work so it's sporadic.

[TJPags]

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

[ddv.rsa]

Koyasha wrote...

It's got to be hundreds, at least, given what we see in the game.  And if Anders isn't exaggerating when he says that the tunnel leading out of the Gallows has saved the lives of 'hundreds' of mages, then it's got to be at least a couple thousand total mages in the Gallows.

I think I'll take his word for it, because Anders is famous for his honesty.

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Cullen mutinied because he defied his superior's orders.  But I find it unlikely that if he was legally obliged to kill everyone that he would be supported by the rest against that order.   But who knows?  We certainly don't have the information to know for sure.

Ian knows!  

Sarcasm aside, yes I do.  I can listen to the game and read the lore.  The game is very clear.  The Rite of Annulment requires the mass murder of all circle mages.  No exceptions.

-Polaris

Well if the Wiki is correct Templars are selected for religious fevor and absolute loyalty - I'm sure Meredith would have done something about Cullen later

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

That's not very nice, you know 

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

That's not very nice, you know 

Yes, well . . . I lost my "niceness" with the fifth batch of insane blood mages attacking me in the street. 

[Sarielle]

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...


It's got to be hundreds, at least, given what we see in the game.  And if Anders isn't exaggerating when he says that the tunnel leading out of the Gallows has saved the lives of 'hundreds' of mages, then it's got to be at least a couple thousand total mages in the Gallows.

Yeah, I suppose.  I just take all the inflated numbers the same way I do in pre modern history books.  It sounded more cool for Hawke to kill 145 Invisible Sisters in open spell battle when it was really probably half a dozen badly armed thugs attacking him on the way home from a party 

I don't know everything about Thedas' technological and economic development, but the amount of resources that would be involved in sustaining even a community of hundreds would be pretty insane with pre modern transportation.   A building to house thousands with resources to actually be functioning mages (labs, books, supplies, etc) would be freaking astronomically expensive even without factoring in the Templars that have to go with it.

Not to mention, how does the Qunari even come close ot threatening the city if there is the kind of templar presence necessary to utterly squeeze 1000s of mages into the dust like that?

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[hovrankid]

Think of the First Enchanter from Orgins, or Wynne, Wynne was good.

[Iosev]

How about role-playing your mage in a more dynamic fashion. For example, let's say that your mage initially starts out very liberal (perhaps because of the teachings of your father). But as the story progresses, and your involvement with the corrupt magi that you encounter throughout your time in Kirkwall, makes you more and more aware of the horrors that magi can commit with their powers. When Leandra dies, it finally drives it home in your mind, Kirkwall is lost. So in Act 3, you become very supportive of Meredith.

[TJPags]

Sarielle wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

Well, I'm not suggesting you commit suicide, or add yourself to the list.

I'm simply suggesting that the Kirkwall Circle seems rotten with blood mages, abominations, and just plain old lunatics.  Even another mage has to see that, given the number of times your attacked in this game by blood mages.

But that's only plucking the stem off the weed.  It needs to be rippd up from the root.

That's how I'd see it.  Even if I'm a member of a group, I can still see when several other group member have gone too far, and need to be stopped.

[ddv.rsa]

If he wasn't lying, Anders could also have meant over the centuries. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 01:20 .

[Icy Magebane]

Sarielle wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

That's the point though.  You are working with the Templars to restore order to the Circle, rather than attempting to abolish the Circle and free all mages, the good along with the bad.  Honestly, on my first run, I was a mage and I wanted to support the Templars at the end, having witnessed firsthand an abnormal amount of blood magic and demonic corruption.  Hawke feared for his saftey though, having helped mages in the past, and just ended up staying as far away from Meredith as possible... cowardly, yes, but at least he survived... that's really the only reason I sided with the mages.  I would never do it again because I believe that freeing all mages is irresponsible.

[Lithuasil]

Sarielle wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

Given Hawke kills more people then the blight, and dangerous is pretty hard to argue. Deranged depends on your playstyle. I reject the accusation of being weak willed though   

I feel with you though, being pro templar is pretty hard. I got the templar ending on the first playthrough though, given I was all, come on, it's so obvious, I'l ltake my sister to the deep roads, and be extra careful. And then bam, taint by cutscene <_<

[Sarielle]

arcelonious wrote...

How about role-playing your mage in a more dynamic fashion. For example, let's say that your mage initially starts out very liberal (perhaps because of the teachings of your father). But as the story progresses, and your involvement with the corrupt magi that you encounter throughout your time in Kirkwall, makes you more and more aware of the horrors that magi can commit with their powers. When Leandra dies, it finally drives it home in your mind, Kirkwall is lost. So in Act 3, you become very supportive of Meredith.

Heh, yeah, there's that. I sort of did that with Jubilee (though ultimately she was like "Eff your Annulment.") She helped the Templars with the blood mages, but she still thought the Circle system sucked.

The problem there is, she lost tons of people at the end. I'd sort of like to see what happens if my character actually, you know, maxes friendship/rivalry with people, instead of playing a middle ground and ending up all alone, lol.

...which is metagaming, to an extent. I know, I know.

[Mnemnosyne]

Sarielle wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

It is not uncommon for people to consider themselves exceptional.  Especially considering that before coming to Kirkwall, Hawke and family probably didn't exactly have any contact with any other mages outside the family.  So it's entirely reasonable that, given this is Hawke's first experience with any significant amount of other mages, she might think 'holy ****, all other mages that didn't have dad to teach them are insane!'  And if you condemn blood magic, Merrill doesn't help change that perception.  And Anders being Mr. Abomination also doesn't really help counter that perception.

Another reasonable thing is if you read the codexes throughout the game that basically say the Gallows is a hellmouth, you can come to the conclusion that because they've spent their entire lives sitting on a hellmouth, the mages of Kirkwall are pretty much irredeemable and need to be anulled.

[Vormaerin]

hovrankid wrote...

Think of the First Enchanter from Orgins, or Wynne, Wynne was good.

She was a walking corpse animated by a Fade Spirit

[Sarielle]

Koyasha wrote...

Another reasonable thing is if you read the codexes throughout the game that basically say the Gallows is a hellmouth, you can come to the conclusion that because they've spent their entire lives sitting on a hellmouth, the mages of Kirkwall are pretty much irredeemable and need to be anulled.

Hah, yeah, I was very disappointed the Enigma of Kirkwall stuff didn't trigger a quest. (That, or I missed one somewhere.) Those were very intriguing.

[TJPags]

Koyasha wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How about, you look at the insanity happening in Kirkwall, realize these mages are everything the Chantry says mages are - dangerous, deranged, weak-willed - and decide they need to be wiped out?

But if I'm a mage I'm obviously not any of those things. That keeps being my stumbling block.

I really want to see the Templar ending, and I'd really like to see what Anders is like as a rival and Fenris as a friend, but it's harder than I expected, lol.

It is not uncommon for people to consider themselves exceptional.  Especially considering that before coming to Kirkwall, Hawke and family probably didn't exactly have any contact with any other mages outside the family.  So it's entirely reasonable that, given this is Hawke's first experience with any significant amount of other mages, she might think 'holy ****, all other mages that didn't have dad to teach them are insane!'  And if you condemn blood magic, Merrill doesn't help change that perception.  And Anders being Mr. Abomination also doesn't really help counter that perception.

Another reasonable thing is if you read the codexes throughout the game that basically say the Gallows is a hellmouth, you can come to the conclusion that because they've spent their entire lives sitting on a hellmouth, the mages of Kirkwall are pretty much irredeemable and need to be anulled.

That's a good point as well.  You can even look at it as, its not their fault, but they are hopelessly tainted at this point.

[Iosev]

Sarielle wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

How about role-playing your mage in a more dynamic fashion. For example, let's say that your mage initially starts out very liberal (perhaps because of the teachings of your father). But as the story progresses, and your involvement with the corrupt magi that you encounter throughout your time in Kirkwall, makes you more and more aware of the horrors that magi can commit with their powers. When Leandra dies, it finally drives it home in your mind, Kirkwall is lost. So in Act 3, you become very supportive of Meredith.

Heh, yeah, there's that. I sort of did that with Jubilee (though ultimately she was like "Eff your Annulment.") She helped the Templars with the blood mages, but she still thought the Circle system sucked.

The problem there is, she lost tons of people at the end. I'd sort of like to see what happens if my character actually, you know, maxes friendship/rivalry with people, instead of playing a middle ground and ending up all alone, lol.

...which is metagaming, to an extent. I know, I know.

Ah OK.  I think your best option might be playing as a pro-Circle mage (a mage who understands the danger of his or her powers and believes that magi should surrender some of their freedoms for the greater good).  This way, you, Carver, and Fenris will get a long better (since they're both pro-Circle/Templar), and you'll get max rivalry with Anders since he's anti-Circle.