243 réponses à ce sujet

[sphinxess]

Sister becomes Grey Warden
Merrill turns on you
and um really really like Meredith?

Modifié par sphinxess, 05 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[Sarielle]

HMMMMMM. Now there's a thought arcelonious. That's largely the sort of hook I was looking for (and I don't have to serve Bethany up to do it xD)

Don't get me wrong, my first and "canon" playthrough was just...amazing. Playing the middle road with no grand power schemes, her brother became a Templar, she had angry one-night stand with Fenris (who still comforted her after mother's death)...and ultimately killed both him and her good friend in the end, roaming into the sunset alone according to Varric.

The pathos, I it.

Still, I'm all for variety and all that.

Modifié par Sarielle, 05 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

It's at times like these that I truly appreciate the fact that we can insult each with more dignity than saying. "You suck!" or "I'm right, you're wrong."

Anyways, I just have to say that you should follow your morals. For both my warrior and rogue play-throughs, Bethany was alive and I truly felt for the mages. I supported them. Meredith made the Right of Annulment sound like the Holocaust in my mind.
BUT I do realize that most mages cannot be trusted to guard themselves. So for my mage, I will side with the Templars because he believes in the Circle, and what it stands for. Tevinter sucks.

On a side note, how were people's reactions to the chantry blowing up? I'm not a big fan of religion, but still, that was a bit much. Reminded me a bit of 9/11. And I was 7 when I saw that.

[Sarielle]

soccerchick wrote...

On a side note, how were people's reactions to the chantry blowing up? I'm not a big fan of religion, but still, that was a bit much. Reminded me a bit of 9/11. And I was 7 when I saw that.

Holy ****, I feel old. I was in high school, LOL.

Actually, it wasn't emotional for me because of that...but because my character HAD befriended Anders, they HAD stood for the same things...and in that moment she understood he was lost. He wasn't her friend anymore.

She could pity him...but she still felt like he had to pay for what he'd done. I appreciated it that he didn't even seem to resent that.

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...

Kill off your sister - have Merrill turn on you and um really really like Meredith?

I actually ended up feeling sorry for her. If you talk to her she's very conscious of the rumors about her. Yet up to the moment she turns on you, and perhaps the annulment, she doesn't seem that unreasonable. Given what you experience with mages her so called "paranoia" seems justified. Epsecially when Orinoco (eh Orsino) eventually turns out to be a blood mage. Her family story made me feel even worse for her. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Ziggeh]

I did a playthrough as a fairly egotistical Hawke, who believed in the essential idea of the circle, but that she herself was an exception. It's for there own safety.

I did have a couple of issues, as there's clearly a distinction between the standard circle system and the one under Meredith, but as people have said here, they don't have turn to blood magic a bit quick round these parts. Someone take your lunch money? Right, open a vein.

And some can just be taken for reasons that don't involve sides. Meredith is right, there will be an anti mage backlash, and you're a mage, and the best way to diminish that is to annul the hell out of something.

[The Baconer]

Vormaerin wrote...
A building to house thousands with resources to actually be functioning mages (labs, books, supplies, etc) would be freaking astronomically expensive even without factoring in the Templars that have to go with it.

Tilting your camera upward next time your in the Gallows reveals that it can indeed house thousands of occupants. I don't have enough information to say if there are enough mages to fill it, but there it is. We do know that it was operating with a larger population than normal, due to the mages from the Starkhaven Circle being relocated there.

As far as its facilites go, they can certainly cut a lot of corners in that regard, since the building is a prison afterall. This is purely my own theory, but I also don't think the mages were receiving sufficient education in the first place. I have a number of reasons to believe this.

-Along with the Veil being thin in Kirkwall, it could also help in explaining why we have so many mages turning to blood magic and demonic possession.

-The final stand cutscene, I believe, also lends itself to this theory. Most of them simply stared at the approaching templars before being effortlessy skewered. The others managed to cast very basic spells.

- Again, it's a prison. Even if they wanted to properly educate the mages, it's not likely that the building can accomodate that at all. Especially since it's a slave complex.

- On average, the Templar order in Kirkwall is known to be particularly... Malevolent. They probably weren't doing much to supply the mages' arcane studies anyway.

- Going by what one of the mages in the courtyard says, it's not uncommon for a mage to spend an entire day in their cell, whether or not they're on "lockdown", which must happen frequently looking at Kirkwall's situation.

So yes, it's just a theory, but I think there's a lot of credence to it. It could certainly give us a more defined view on what went wrong in the Kirkwall Circle.

[Sarielle]

ddv.rsa wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Kill off your sister - have Merrill turn on you and um really really like Meredith?

I actually ended up feeling sorry for her.

Me too. Like Anders...she really believed she was doing the right thing. That's what made that whole climax so great.

[AngryFrozenWater]

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,]

Understand from the start that a mage that supports the templars to the very end is a hypocrit especially given that Meredith is annulin the circle for a crime they didn't commit.  That said, there are reason why a mage-Hawke might go pro-templar:

1.  Powerhungry bastard.  This is the mage that doesn't care about other mages as long as he (or she) gets his.  The Templars are doing him a huge favor by removing the competition so why not lend a hand, and be hailed as a hero in the process...perhaps even make history by being the first non-Tevinter ruling noble (Viscount).  In this case, you go with the power, and Meredith, crazy fruitloop that she is, has the power so you smile and nod and act like a good mage while you chuckle behind your false smile.

At the end this is the sort of mage that Meridith believes any pro-Templar mage is, and she need not be wrong.

2.  You can be (as mentioned before) a self-hating mage.  The only problem I have with this, is that if so, you should have turned yourself into the Templars five minutes after landing in Kirkwell.  The same goes for the Andrastian Loyalist mage.

3.  Similiar to 1. but a lot more benevolent, you may decide to take the title to heart and BE the Champion of Kirkwell and that means riding the tiger....and Meredith has all the power.  In this case you play it just like one except you hope and pray you get an opportuniy to stick a knife in Meredith's back hopefully with the support of the Templars so you can rebuild and restructure with political power into something sane.  That's almost what seems to really happen but then we are told with no explaination whatsoever that it didn't work out.....-Polaris

To me this is an RPG and as such I don't need any moralistic points of view to play the game as I see fit. Addressing others as if you have to tell your enlightned points of view is disgusting to a blood mage like me. That blood mage even wonders why he should even care to reply to weak moralistic arguments like that. But let's try. Just for the fun of it.

It's not about what's the best for Thedas or whether being a selfish blood mage can be justified. It's about what is best for a blood mage like Hawke in the long run. To this date the survival rate of blood mages is low. Hawke changed all that when becoming viscount. It's true that this is not entirely the most powerful role, but it is a safer position in the food chain. It sets an example for other blood mages. Work your way up into the best position you can. Gain influence. Unite with other like minded mages to either keep the status quo (and take advantage of it) or to reach a Tevinter-like goal (not sure what is best yet). I am sure that we blood mages can make you bite in the dust.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 avril 2011 - 01:46 .

[Vormaerin]

Sarielle wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

On a side note, how were people's reactions to the chantry blowing up? I'm not a big fan of religion, but still, that was a bit much. Reminded me a bit of 9/11. And I was 7 when I saw that.

Holy ****, I feel old. I was in high school, LOL.

*snickers*  You feel old because you were in high school then?  I must have been getting out of high school or college about the time you were being born then

[DrFumb1ezX]

Sarielle wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

On a side note, how were people's reactions to the chantry blowing up? I'm not a big fan of religion, but still, that was a bit much. Reminded me a bit of 9/11. And I was 7 when I saw that.

Holy ****, I feel old. I was in high school, LOL.

Actually, it wasn't emotional for me because of that...but because my character HAD befriended Anders, they HAD stood for the same things...and in that moment she understood he was lost. He wasn't her friend anymore.

She could pity him...but she still felt like he had to pay for what he'd done. I appreciated it that he didn't even seem to resent that.

I spared him on both play-throughs, even through my warrior really wanted to shank him, He decided to spare him so he could fix the mess he made.
My rogue is such a goody-goody two-shoes though.Couldn't kill bee if it was stinging her hand.

And besides you're only as young as you feel. so technically... i'm 4 years old! YAY!
CAN I HAVE A PONY? AND MAYBE A REESE'S CUP?

Modifié par soccerchick, 05 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[Sarielle]

The Baconer wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...
A building to house thousands with resources to actually be functioning mages (labs, books, supplies, etc) would be freaking astronomically expensive even without factoring in the Templars that have to go with it.

Tilting your camera upward next time your in the Gallows reveals that it can indeed house thousands of occupants. I don't have enough information to say if there are enough mages to fill it, but there it is. We do know that it was operating with a larger population than normal, due to the mages from the Starkhaven Circle being relocated there.

As far as its facilites go, they can certainly cut a lot of corners in that regard, since the building is a prison afterall. This is purely my own theory, but I also don't think the mages were receiving sufficient education in the first place. I have a number of reasons to believe this.

-Along with the Veil being thin in Kirkwall, it could also help in explaining why we have so many mages turning to blood magic and demonic possession.

-The final stand cutscene, I believe, also lends itself to this theory. Most of them simply stared at the approaching templars before being effortlessy skewered. The others managed to cast very basic spells.

- Again, it's a prison. Even if they wanted to properly educate the mages, it's not likely that the building can accomodate that at all. Especially since it's a slave complex.

- On average, the Templar order in Kirkwall is known to be particularly... Malevolent. They probably weren't doing much to supply the mages' arcane studies anyway.

- Going by what one of the mages in the courtyard says, it's not uncommon for a mage to spend an entire day in their cell, whether or not they're on "lockdown", which must happen frequently looking at Kirkwall's situation.

So yes, it's just a theory, but I think there's a lot of credence to it. It could certainly give us a more defined view on what went wrong in the Kirkwall Circle.

This would be an excellent argument for a whole new thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "gtfo of my thread," but seriously. I've thought on this some, because Kirkwall's Circle is definitely atypical...but this is a great argument for why.


@Vormaerin and  soccerchick : I'm a firm believer you're never too old for make-believe. 

[The Baconer]

Sarielle wrote...

This would be an excellent argument for a whole new thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "gtfo of my thread," but seriously. I've thought on this some, because Kirkwall's Circle is definitely atypical...but this is a great argument for why.

Yeah, I was afraid of completely derailing the thread but since we were touching on the subject of the Gallows' facilities I figured it was as good a time as any other >_>

[Beerfish]

A good many mages realize and acknowledge the danger of being a mage and thus the danger of their fellow mages. It's a fallacy that every single mage hates the circle and wants to be free. Of course the Kirkwall circle is being aqueezed by a a bit of a nut but is also rampant with bad mages as well.

[Vormaerin]

The Baconer wrote...


So yes, it's just a theory, but I think there's a lot of credence to it. It could certainly give us a more defined view on what went wrong in the Kirkwall Circle.

Yeah, its possible.  Medieval feeling culture doesn't necessarily mean medieval economy and technology.  And if you decide that magic is actually doing stuff in the wider socio-economic sphere despite the lack of any such evidence, its more likely.

But consider that it took decades to build medieval castles and cathedrals which would be bursting with far less than thousands living there.  A huge medieval monastery (where monks actually do manual labor, unlike mages) such as Monte Cassino peaked around 200 inhabitants.

Maybe Kirkwall is a huge Venice like trade center with tons of resources flowing into it from all around the world.   There have been some truly huge pre modern cities, like Rome of the Roman Empire (though it was mostly empty in the Middle Ages).    But London in the Middle Ages was by far the largest English city at 20,000 people.  A few cities in very fertile, trade oriented areas like Italy got into the 100,000 range or so.

So even if Kirkwall is one of those cities, you'd be talking 2-3% of the population being mages.   Given that there is no evidence that mages contribute the the economic health of the city, that's a huge burden for a supernumerary class.   Given that the population also has to support the Chantry, the Templars, and their own nobles and guards...   ouch, the taxes must be insane.

[AngryFrozenWater]

You made some good points, The Baconer.

[Sarielle]

The Baconer wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

This would be an excellent argument for a whole new thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "gtfo of my thread," but seriously. I've thought on this some, because Kirkwall's Circle is definitely atypical...but this is a great argument for why.

Yeah, I was afraid of completely derailing the thread but since we were touching on the subject of the Gallows' facilities I figured it was as good a time as any other >_>

Lol, I don't mind the de-railing as long as it doesn't get personal, like that other conversation was getting.

@ Beerfish : True. I had an Origins mage who looked on the circle as home, was sad to leave it. (She was kind of mousy, lol). That said, Hawke has been raised by an Apostate father, had an Apostate sister...The siblings have always been free, and one would imagine Daddy Hawke would have impressed on them a value of personal freedom.

I'd thought about that one, too.

[Raiil]

I'm struggling through my pro-templar mage ATM. I'm playing it as less pro-templar and more pro-law and order. She's powerful enough to be left alone, and she knows that so long as she stays on their good side, she'll be left alone. The templars are powerful allies, and as far as this Hawke is concerned, she comes first. She doesn't know the mages in the tower, so she doesn't give a s--t about them.

[Iosev]

Sarielle wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

This would be an excellent argument for a whole new thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "gtfo of my thread," but seriously. I've thought on this some, because Kirkwall's Circle is definitely atypical...but this is a great argument for why.

Yeah, I was afraid of completely derailing the thread but since we were touching on the subject of the Gallows' facilities I figured it was as good a time as any other >_>

Lol, I don't mind the de-railing as long as it doesn't get personal, like that other conversation was getting.

@ Beerfish : True. I had an Origins mage who looked on the circle as home, was sad to leave it. (She was kind of mousy, lol). That said, Hawke has been raised by an Apostate father, had an Apostate sister...The siblings have always been free, and one would imagine Daddy Hawke would have impressed on them a value of personal freedom.

I'd thought about that one, too.

That's essentially how I played my mage on my first playthrough.  Basically a sort of sarcastic mage spoiled by his own freedom, and didn't really want to get involved in the whole circle-templar debate, but in the end, didn't feel right about purging the entire circle.

[ad1dash0lm3s]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Speaking of which, can a mage become viscount?

Yes indeed. My wife's mage went exactly that route.

Yeah, only if they side with the Templars right?

[The Baconer]

Vormaerin wrote...
Yeah, its possible.  Medieval feeling culture doesn't necessarily mean medieval economy and technology.  And if you decide that magic is actually doing stuff in the wider socio-economic sphere despite the lack of any such evidence, its more likely.

But consider that it took decades to build medieval castles and cathedrals which would be bursting with far less than thousands living there.  A huge medieval monastery (where monks actually do manual labor, unlike mages) such as Monte Cassino peaked around 200 inhabitants.

Given the massive scope of certain structures (Kinloch Hold, The Gallows, Tower of Ishal, the Imperial Highway, The Twins of Kirkwall and their massive net of chains) I don't find it hard to believe, especially since it was constructed by the Imperium.

Maybe Kirkwall is a huge Venice like trade center with tons of resources flowing into it from all around the world.   There have been some truly huge pre modern cities, like Rome of the Roman Empire (though it was mostly empty in the Middle Ages).    But London in the Middle Ages was by far the largest English city at 20,000 people.  A few cities in very fertile, trade oriented areas like Italy got into the 100,000 range or so.

We do know that Kirkwall is very wealthy, especially in raw resources. I am not aware of it's other sources of trade though, and I also don't have any info on it's total population.

So even if Kirkwall is one of those cities, you'd be talking 2-3% of the population being mages.   Given that there is no evidence that mages contribute the the economic health of the city,

We know that the Mages make income through enchantments, runes, potions, healing, and other services and their profits do go straight back into the Circle. If my theory is correct then it's likely that supplies that are required for education would have to be purchased by the mages themselves, with the money they get from offering said services.

that's a huge burden for a supernumerary class.   Given that the population also has to support the Chantry, the Templars, and their own nobles and guards...   ouch, the taxes must be insane.

Whelp, in Kirkwall it seems like you're either rich or miserably poor, so...

[Sarielle]

arcelonious wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

This would be an excellent argument for a whole new thread. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "gtfo of my thread," but seriously. I've thought on this some, because Kirkwall's Circle is definitely atypical...but this is a great argument for why.

Yeah, I was afraid of completely derailing the thread but since we were touching on the subject of the Gallows' facilities I figured it was as good a time as any other >_>

Lol, I don't mind the de-railing as long as it doesn't get personal, like that other conversation was getting.

@ Beerfish : True. I had an Origins mage who looked on the circle as home, was sad to leave it. (She was kind of mousy, lol). That said, Hawke has been raised by an Apostate father, had an Apostate sister...The siblings have always been free, and one would imagine Daddy Hawke would have impressed on them a value of personal freedom.

I'd thought about that one, too.

That's essentially how I played my mage on my first playthrough.  Basically a sort of sarcastic mage spoiled by his own freedom, and didn't really want to get involved in the whole circle-templar debate, but in the end, didn't feel right about purging the entire circle.

Hah, yeah, sarcastic apostate is fun. I found her defective "humor is appropriate now" meter kind of...endearing. Like she does it as a defense mechanism, or something.

/slightly off-topic

[Dr. Nexas]

I wanted to be the new First Enchanter.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

I wanted to be the new First Enchanter.

Enchantment?

[Vormaerin]

The Baconer wrote...

We know that the Mages make income through enchantments, runes, potions, healing, and other services and their profits do go straight back into the Circle. If my theory is correct then it's likely that supplies that are required for education would have to be purchased by the mages themselves, with the money they get from offering said services.

Yes, though the devs have said that any work by a mage is purely voluntary.   They are prisoners but not servants or slaves. Also, someone has to be producing the wealth that goes into buying their goods, which are quite clearly expensive luxuries.

The Imperium obviously used magic to do a lot of stuff.  Its ruled by mages and its mentioned they used blood sacrifices to do stuff. I think that modern Thedas is not at that level of magical integration.

Anyway, like I said, its not impossible.  It would just have huge implications that I'm not at all certain are supported by the rest of the world's design.

There's lots of other things we don't know, of course.  How much does magical power vary?  The PC obviously is capable of the upper limits of power.  But is everyone?   How many mages can be a Michael Jordan of mages and how many are just dudes shooting hoops in the rec hall?  Stuff like that.