243 réponses à ce sujet

[Atmosfear3]

I must admit it there was some very interesting dialogue if you have Bethany sent to the Circle and you side with the Templars. Before I saw this cutscene I was pretty pissed at Orsino the first time I realized he had dealings with Quentin. If Bethany is present, Orsino will actually say that he had no realized how corrupt Quentin had become and that it was too late to stop him when he had already taken Leandra.

I sided with the Templars on my mage simply because I wanted to bring Carver back into my group. While that may seem like the villainous path almost every mage you encounter from there after are blood mages anyways. I spared the ones who surrendered since Cullen made a good point about them not resorting to blood magic. Honestly though it is a very ambiguous choice and I'm glad for it. There shouldn't be a clear good vs bad when it came to taking sides.

[Sarielle]

Vormaerin wrote...
How much does magical power vary?  The PC obviously is capable of the upper limits of power.  But is everyone?   How many mages can be a Michael Jordan of mages and how many are just dudes shooting hoops in the rec hall?  Stuff like that.

I'm betting not many can be MJs, and that's why blood magic is so appealing. As powerful as the PC becomes, dealing with devils is kind of a "derrrrrrp" moment, because he/she doesn't need to.

[sphinxess]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

We know that the Mages make income through enchantments, runes, potions, healing, and other services and their profits do go straight back into the Circle. If my theory is correct then it's likely that supplies that are required for education would have to be purchased by the mages themselves, with the money they get from offering said services.

Yes, though the devs have said that any work by a mage is purely voluntary.   They are prisoners but not servants or slaves. Also, someone has to be producing the wealth that goes into buying their goods, which are quite clearly expensive luxuries.

The Imperium obviously used magic to do a lot of stuff.  Its ruled by mages and its mentioned they used blood sacrifices to do stuff. I think that modern Thedas is not at that level of magical integration.

Anyway, like I said, its not impossible.  It would just have huge implications that I'm not at all certain are supported by the rest of the world's design.

There's lots of other things we don't know, of course.  How much does magical power vary?  The PC obviously is capable of the upper limits of power.  But is everyone?   How many mages can be a Michael Jordan of mages and how many are just dudes shooting hoops in the rec hall?  Stuff like that.

Since they take everyone that shows any ability at all I would imagine its the rec hall level - which might explain the blood magic a bit

[Lithuasil]

Sarielle wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...
How much does magical power vary?  The PC obviously is capable of the upper limits of power.  But is everyone?   How many mages can be a Michael Jordan of mages and how many are just dudes shooting hoops in the rec hall?  Stuff like that.

I'm betting not many can be MJs, and that's why blood magic is so appealing. As powerful as the PC becomes, dealing with devils is kind of a "derrrrrrp" moment, because he/she doesn't need to.

Imho, your power is determined by how much energy you can will through the veil (hence why willpower determines your mana). Bloodmagic on the other hand, uses a lure to get some demon to do the job for you. And then there's lyrium, which is basically canned energy from beyond the veil. So theoretically, even Emile could be pretty dangerous, if he sits on a large enough pile of the stuff.

[Vormaerin]

Sarielle wrote...

I'm betting not many can be MJs, and that's why blood magic is so appealing. As powerful as the PC becomes, dealing with devils is kind of a "derrrrrrp" moment, because he/she doesn't need to.

I agree.  Its just a very common mistake by game players to apply the rules governing party members to the world at large.  Just because your cleric is a armored fighting machine wielding divine fire on the enemy does not mean the parish priest has that kind of ability....

I suspect that most mages in the Circle are not very strong, have one or two talents maybe, and aren't in a position to make super magic items or battle abominations or do any of the stuff that PCs do.

[Sarielle]

Vormaerin wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

I'm betting not many can be MJs, and that's why blood magic is so appealing. As powerful as the PC becomes, dealing with devils is kind of a "derrrrrrp" moment, because he/she doesn't need to.

I agree.  Its just a very common mistake by game players to apply the rules governing party members to the world at large.  Just because your cleric is a armored fighting machine wielding divine fire on the enemy does not mean the parish priest has that kind of ability....

I suspect that most mages in the Circle are not very strong, have one or two talents maybe, and aren't in a position to make super magic items or battle abominations or do any of the stuff that PCs do.

It's also kind of ironic...those with high willpower have a greater capacity to cast more/more costly spells. They're also the least likely to be influenced by demons, because they have a higher capacity to resist.

...man. I'm feeling more and more sorry for the average joe mage. They really do get kind of a bum deal, lol.

[Lithuasil]

Sarielle wrote...

...man. I'm feeling more and more sorry for the average joe mage. They really do get kind of a bum deal, lol.

Actually, as opposed to the average joe thedas citizen, who works his ass off, lives in ditch, starves, and is left completely at the mercy of nobles/soldiers on one side and carta/coterie/slavers/highwaymen on the other, being an average mage, getting free food, free shelter,a big bed in a fancy tower and armed and trained guards, who're at least supposed to be polite, all in return for saying no to the demons, sounds like a pretty good deal.

[ddv.rsa]

Lithuasil wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

...man. I'm feeling more and more sorry for the average joe mage. They really do get kind of a bum deal, lol.

Actually, as opposed to the average joe thedas citizen, who works his ass off, lives in ditch, starves, and is left completely at the mercy of nobles/soldiers on one side and carta/coterie/slavers/highwaymen on the other, being an average mage, getting free food, free shelter,a big bed in a fancy tower and armed and trained guards, who're at least supposed to be polite, all in return for saying no to the demons, sounds like a pretty good deal.

Not to mention an excellent education and the luxury of spending all day engaged in idle persuits. Mostly paid for by the Chantry - who they hate. Talk about ungrateful. 

You know.. I think I've discovered the real reason  mages are always consorting with demons and thinking up plots to rebel: they have nothing better to do!

[Sarielle]

Hah! Touche.

[Urazz]

There are several reasons to support the templars and the right of annulment but there are several to not support them as well.  The Templars in Kirkwall are just as corrupt as the Mages in Kirkwall.  Prime examples of that are Meredith, Alrik, Varnell, and their flunkies.

Sure both have their good people but overall, I think siding with either side is supposed to leave a bad taste in your mouth.  I myself tend to side with the Mages because at that point, Meredith is the one acting unreasonable and uses the Chantry's destruction as an opportunity to use the Right of Annulment even though she knows full well they aren't responsible.

Hell, Orsino was acting reasonable at the time you are making your decision to pick a side (Unless you are metagaming and know he's a blood mage.).  Hell, even when you get to the gallows he makes one more reasonable call for peace and offers to let her search the gallows like she orignally wanted.

Lithuasil wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

...man. I'm feeling more and more sorry for the average joe mage. They really do get kind of a bum deal, lol.

Actually, as opposed to the average joe thedas citizen, who works his ass off, lives in ditch, starves, and is left completely at the mercy of nobles/soldiers on one side and carta/coterie/slavers/highwaymen on the other, being an average mage, getting free food, free shelter,a big bed in a fancy tower and armed and trained guards, who're at least supposed to be polite, all in return for saying no to the demons, sounds like a pretty good deal.

That would be true except it seems the mages in Kirkwall are kept in a former prison for slaves.  Not to mention it seems like a good amount of the ' trained guards' there tend to be corrupt or religious zealots.

Modifié par Urazz, 05 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[Lithuasil]

Which leaves with the problem that it takes but one spoiled upper class kid to get possessed, blow up a church, and suddenly everybody else finds their life on the line, too :|

[Sarielle]

Anders is not what I'd call "upper class," though. I mean, even if he moves in with Hawke, that just means Hawke is slumming. xD

[Lithuasil]

He isn't during the game. But judging from what I know about his background, he came from a high enough social standing, to experience the circle as a loss, rather then an improvement,

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...
You know.. I think I've discovered the real reason  mages are always consorting with demons and thinking up plots to rebel: they have nothing better to do!

You may be joking, but I think that's a major flaw in the system. That mages are not integrated into the economy as much as they could be.

They can do more than just enchanting, which is a limited market anyways. They can work in hospitals, be firefighters, help increase land fertility (creation school), professors / scholars / academics...etc. This economic integration could, imo, lead to more social integration.

Of course they'd still be regulated, with only a select few deemed experienced and wise enough (possibly restricted to certain magic schools) allowed, with phylacteries present should anything happen.  

Essentially Voltaire sums up what I am saying in Candide:
"Le travail éloigne de nous trois grands maux: l'ennui, le vice et le besoin."

"Work keeps from us 3 great "evils": boredom, vice and need."

Hence my Lucrosian alignment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2011 - 03:20 .

[Lithuasil]

Urazz wrote...


That would be true except it seems the mages in Kirkwall are kept in a former prison for slaves.  Not to mention it seems like a good amount of the ' trained guards' there tend to be corrupt or religious zealots.

I'd still rather live a life of scholarship in a former prison, guarded by people, who have a few zealots among them, then starve, living in (currently in use) sewers (darktown), begging for coin or working my ass off, permanently praying, that none of the cutthroats around me will force themselves on me, or simply kill me, or that any of the slavers around sell my pretty face to the next tevinter.

[Arawn-Loki]

A mage would support the Templers for the same reason as any other version of Hawke. Because they believe unregulated magic poses too much of a danger to society and that sacrificing innocent mages is preferrable to challenging the Templers and risking the world order. 

The choice between the Templers or the Mages is written as security and the general welfare versus freedom and justice.

You could see a mage Hawke as a hypocrite for desiring freedom and power for his/herself and his/her companions while denying it to other mages, but its possible Hawke sees him/herself and his/her companions as a proven elite. Meredith might also see it that way. 

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 05 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[Mnemnosyne]

No mage would ever be in such a bad situation if not for the templars. If they could live freely and didn't have to hide their talents, there would be sufficient demand for their services - even the weak ones - that every mage would be able to live reasonably comfortably, at worst.

[Arawn-Loki]

Koyasha wrote...

No mage would ever be in such a bad situation if not for the templars. If they could live freely and didn't have to hide their talents, there would be sufficient demand for their services - even the weak ones - that every mage would be able to live reasonably comfortably, at worst.

The problem is that the history in Dragon Age (and, if you would, our own world) does not suggest this is true, showcased in the Tevinter Imperium. People in the power position consistently abuse it. Mages have the same corrupt nature as everyone else, but their ability to manipulate the fabric of reality endows them with far more destructive potential than the average despot. The average despot can upset civilization to some degree, but mages can disrupt the natural order itself (aka, the Black City and the Blight). 

That said, people, mages included, are innocent or guilty based on their actions. Limiting the freedom and threatening the life and well being of mages (with the Rite of Tranquility or the Harrowing, for exampel) are instances of injustice because they are imposed as a preventive measure for the well being of others rather than punishment for wrongdoing. 

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 05 avril 2011 - 03:43 .

[Sarielle]

Lithuasil wrote...

He isn't during the game. But judging from what I know about his background, he came from a high enough social standing, to experience the circle as a loss, rather then an improvement,

Hmm. I only played Awakenings once and am not up terribly on my Anders lore. I was only going by DAII Anders

[Lithuasil]

Sarielle wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

He isn't during the game. But judging from what I know about his background, he came from a high enough social standing, to experience the circle as a loss, rather then an improvement,

Hmm. I only played Awakenings once and am not up terribly on my Anders lore. I was only going by DAII Anders

So am I - but given he has a silken pillow, hand embroided by his mother, to give a way, his parents will have hardly been beggars or peasants.

[Urazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...
You know.. I think I've discovered the real reason  mages are always consorting with demons and thinking up plots to rebel: they have nothing better to do!

You may be joking, but I think that's a major flaw in the system. That mages are not integrated into the economy as much as they could be.

They can do more than just enchanting, which is a limited market anyways. They can work in hospitals, be firefighters, help increase land fertility (creation school), professors / scholars / academics...etc. This economic integration could, imo, lead to more social integration.

Of course they'd still be regulated, with only a select few deemed experienced and wise enough (possibly restricted to certain magic schools) allowed, with phylacteries present should anything happen.  

Essentially Voltaire sums up what I am saying in Candide:
"Le travail éloigne de nous trois grands maux: l'ennui, le vice et le besoin."

"Work keeps from us 3 great "evils": boredom, vice and need."

Hence my Lucrosian alignment.

Exactly what I think.  Essentially the Circle needs to be more like a school to train mages to the point where they would have less of a chance to be possessed by demons.  Once they graduate they would be able to help out society in various ways like you listed.  Templars would still look after them and they could still have phylacteries of mages that graduate the circle so they can keep track of them still.  This way they would be following Andraste's words that magic is to serve man and not rule over him.

[Sarielle]

Lithuasil wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

He isn't during the game. But judging from what I know about his background, he came from a high enough social standing, to experience the circle as a loss, rather then an improvement,

Hmm. I only played Awakenings once and am not up terribly on my Anders lore. I was only going by DAII Anders

So am I - but given he has a silken pillow, hand embroided by his mother, to give a way, his parents will have hardly been beggars or peasants.

Oh, I didn't get that convo, lol. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...

No mage would ever be in such a bad situation if not for the templars. If they could live freely and didn't have to hide their talents, there would be sufficient demand for their services - even the weak ones - that every mage would be able to live reasonably comfortably, at worst.

Think it through.  You are Lord Bob of Elsewhere.   Some guy has the ability to make magical fires.  Are you going to tolerate him living on your lands, selling his flames to anyone with coin?  Or are you going to say:  Get up here and do fiery stuff for my benefit alone!

Also, you are talking about changing a life of idle scholarship for a life of actual labor.  Your mages have to work to make enough money to pay for a house, a lab, books, lyrium, etc.   The Chantry mages don't.

You are also ignoring that if the mages are out there working, they are making mundane workers unemployed.  If I can replace all the baron's lights with magic glowy thingies, then that's a lot of lost revenue for the baron's charcoaler and the carters who haul it, the servants to keep the lights lit, etc.   You think they are all going to go home and talk about the nice mage who put them in the poorhouse?

[BlakIceanjel]

to the OP, since your main problem with playing as a warrior or rogue and siding with the Templars is your concern for Bethany, you can rest easy knowing that she will still join you in the end once finding out that Orsino knew about Quentin and did nothing.

As an above poster said, it would also make sense that you would not want to side against Carver (if you left him home and let him become a templar, what a douche move by the way).

I must say I am shocked at the amount of people that think the Right of Annullment was justified in this case. In Ferelden it would have been justified, sure, but even then the Warden stopped it... mine did anyway. You cannot discount the fact that Meredith has obviously been corrupted by the lyrium idol. She was seeing blood magic where there was none. At the end she even swears that Cullen is being controlled by magic when he speaks against her (and we know this is not the case). She was barking mad. And while we do see evidence of blood magic (a lot of it) around Kirkwall we are also presented with evidence that not all mages see it as a option (Alain in the Act of Mercy quest, even Anders was powerfully against blood magic, though he had other issues).

And, yes, Orsino was unfit to be the First Enchanter because he knew of blood mages and kept them secret. But do you remember the reason he kept them secret? He knew that if the problems within the Circle were revealed to Meredith she would see it as justification of her paranoia and crack down even harder (which would cause even more mages to take more desperate measures). Also, if you pay attention at the end, if siding with the templars, Orsino will say that he'd never considered blood magic before (Meredith doesn't know that much about mages since she says a mage cannot just pick up blood magic on a whim, Orsino is First Enchanter, I don't imagine it would be hard to cut himself and call a demon since we see others turn into abominations out of fear earlier in the game).

Was that everything? I've played through this game 3 times already, on my fourth playthrough now. I find it hard to side with the templars because while I understand the need for a Circle I think it is too oppressive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Urazz wrote...
Exactly what I think.  Essentially the Circle needs to be more like a school to train mages to the point where they would have less of a chance to be possessed by demons.  Once they graduate they would be able to help out society in various ways like you listed.  Templars would still look after them and they could still have phylacteries of mages that graduate the circle so they can keep track of them still.  This way they would be following Andraste's words that magic is to serve man and not rule over him.

I personally had more in mind that most would remain in the circles and only a select few can go work in specific areas in the outside world. At least as a first step.

As for that maybe making people unemployed, which Vomaerin points out. Well qualified labor and technology (this case magic) ends up doing that, in the short run at least. Can't please everyone.
But my idea personally is to restrict mage career options quite a bit, and develop certain niches for them that wouldn't cause that much unemployement. I personally do not advocate releasing mages into society completely and giving them equal opportunity with everyone else.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2011 - 04:03 .