243 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

You have no idea how many people are in the Gallows.  You have no idea how many of them are "innocent".  Blood mages have been running rampant in the tower for years and years.  You are making up facts to support your argument based purely on speculative interpretations. 

It's the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, please don't try to tell me it has a minimal population. The mages we encounter don't constitute the entire population of the Circle, so why murder men, women, and children because Hawke encountered a fraction of mages who abused their powers?

Vormaerin wrote...

I could count the actual mages who show up in the various Gallows scenes and claim that was the whole population with just as much validity.  And most of those were blood mages.

Some =/= most or even all. Considering Varric addresses that there were "many survivors" if Hawke sides with the mages, I don't see any reason to side with the templars and commit genocide on innocent people.

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

A circle of thousands would have a massive army of templars guarding them.

Meredith has an army of templars - that's why it's virtually impossible to remove the templars from Kirkwall.

ddv.rsa wrote...

The arishok and his few hundred qunari would have posed no threat whatsoever. In which case why would anyone fear them? Why would the grand cleric be so interested in appeasing them?

Are we factoring that the Qunari made a surprise attack and held the most important people in Kirkwall hostage in the Viscount's Keep?

[Vormaerin]

Neither of us knows. That's my point. I can make up numbers and you can make up numbers and neither of us would have any idea who is right or wrong. So if you want to base your argument on your imagination, fine. But don't expect anyone to take it seriously.

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to maintain a standing garrison of thousands of men? 

The kind of garrison that could be funded by an organization that has a monopoly on the lyrium trade, for instance?

Vormaerin wrote...

Nobody did that until the age of modern nation states, infrastructure, and taxation.   And Meredith doesn't even have the revenues of the Viscounty in her clutches for 2/3 of the game.

Only the Chantry and the Circle of Magi.

Vormaerin wrote...

Further, if Meredith has these thousands of Templars, how is it that the Qunari are even remotely a threat?  They were one shipload.   Even if we imagine some insanely ginormous super dreadnought ship and everyone surviving the wreck, it wouldn't be a threat to a standing army of thousands of Templars.

You mean the fact that the Viscount already addressed that the loss of life wouldn't be worth the effort if he had the city guard remove them by force?

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

Neither of us knows. That's my point. I can make up numbers and you can make up numbers and neither of us would have any idea who is right or wrong. So if you want to base your argument on your imagination, fine. But don't expect anyone to take it seriously.

You'd have a point if I provided a specific number, but you seem more inclined to argue that the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches has a miminal population, which doesn't make much sense when we know that the Starkhaven mages are being re-directed to the Gallows.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Are we factoring that the Qunari made a surprise attack and held the most important people in Kirkwall hostage in the Viscount's Keep?

So Meredith and the Arishok were both utterly incompetent?   If Meredith had that kind of force, there was never any chance of the Arishok doing more than killing off a few folks who happened to be around the palace at the time and then getting massacred by the Templars.

And that assumes Meredith is too stupid to pay any attention to the Arishok with her swarms of troops, some of whom were doubtless at the Chantry around the corner from the palace.  How the Qunari got from the docks to high town without any of these thousands of templars being visible ANYWHERE is quite....interesting.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Neither of us knows. That's my point. I can make up numbers and you can make up numbers and neither of us would have any idea who is right or wrong. So if you want to base your argument on your imagination, fine. But don't expect anyone to take it seriously.

You'd have a point if I provided a specific number, but you seem more inclined to argue that the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches has a miminal population, which doesn't make much sense when we know that the Starkhaven mages are being re-directed to the Gallows.

Because we have some kind of numbers for the Starkhaven circle too, right?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 05 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Are we factoring that the Qunari made a surprise attack and held the most important people in Kirkwall hostage in the Viscount's Keep?

So Meredith and the Arishok were both utterly incompetent?   If Meredith had that kind of force, there was never any chance of the Arishok doing more than killing off a few folks who happened to be around the palace at the time and then getting massacred by the Templars.

It's almost as if the Arishok has taken everyone by surprise and also taken the most influential people in Kirkwall as hostages.

Vormaerin wrote...

And that assumes Meredith is too stupid to pay any attention to the Arishok with her swarms of troops, some of whom were doubtless at the Chantry around the corner from the palace.  How the Qunari got from the docks to high town without any of these thousands of templars being visible ANYWHERE is quite....interesting.

Probably the same reason that got the Qunari into Kirkwall despite the combined forces of the templars, the Circle mages, and the city guard; there's supposed to be an armistice with the Qunari. Why would Meredith kill the Arishok and his Qunari when it would start a war?

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You'd have a point if I provided a specific number, but you seem more inclined to argue that the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches has a miminal population, which doesn't make much sense when we know that the Starkhaven mages are being re-directed to the Gallows.

You have no idea how many people are born as mages.  What if its 1: 100,000?    What if its 1 in 10?  Who knows?  Not you, not me.

The Fereldan Tower certainly couldn't hold hundreds, much less thousands.

My argument is that if there were thousands of wizards being born in the Free Marches, they'd have more than two Circles.   Because its idiotic to have concentrations of mages  like that on top of being absurdly expensive.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Because we have some kind of numbers for the Starkhaven circle too, right? 

I've never provided specific numbers, but I also don't see why people seem so inclined to think that the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches has a small population.

[ddv.rsa]

So for the sake of argument, Lob, would you say it's fair to work on the Free Marches being roughly the size of Ferelden? There certainly weren't thousands of mages in the Ferelden Circle.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 05:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

You have no idea how many people are born as mages.  What if its 1: 100,000?    What if its 1 in 10?  Who knows?  Not you, not me.

I've never provided a specific number, and I've addressed the possibility of hundreds because it's mentioned that hundreds of mages used the mage underground to escape the Gallows.

Vormaerin wrote...

The Fereldan Tower certainly couldn't hold hundreds, much less thousands.

According to who, exactly?

Vormaerin wrote...

My argument is that if there were thousands of wizards being born in the Free Marches, they'd have more than two Circles.   Because its idiotic to have concentrations of mages  like that on top of being absurdly expensive.

As stupid as having a Circle of Magi in a place where the Veil is weak, you mean? See Band of Three.

[Vormaerin]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's almost as if the Arishok has taken everyone by surprise and also taken the most influential people in Kirkwall as hostages.

[quote]Vormaerin wrote...

Riiiiighhht.   Because everyone is tense and worried and the Captain of the Guard is about to make an armed demand of the Arishok and no one bothered to be on alert.

The plan works if the city has the smallish forces one typically associates with standing medieval era armies, where most troops are reservists who would have to be mobilized.   Thousands of Templars in a tense situation and no one is paying any attention to the Qunari.

Talk about massive incompetence on both sides.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Because we have some kind of numbers for the Starkhaven circle too, right? 

I've never provided specific numbers, but I also don't see why people seem so inclined to think that the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches has a small population.

You've constantly thrown around the terms "hundreds" and "thousands", but there's never been any indication whatsoever what the numbers are.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've never provided a specific number, and I've addressed the possibility of hundreds because it's mentioned that hundreds of mages used the mage underground to escape the Gallows.

But not over how long a period. The gallows are well over a thousand years old. One mage could escape every two years and you'd still be able to say that.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to who, exactly?

As stupid as having a Circle of Magi in a place where the Veil is weak, you mean? See Band of Three.

According to the fact that you could explore the whole thing in DAO and also that when Irving talked about numbers, he obviously wasn't talking about huge ones.  If hundreds or thousands of mages had died because of Uldred, I think that scene would have played out quite a lot different.

And the point of the Band of Three is that people don't realize the history of the veil issues in Kirkwall.   Which is a lot different than the daily requisition for food for 5000 people....  hard to miss that.

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

Riiiiighhht.   Because everyone is tense and worried and the Captain of the Guard is about to make an armed demand of the Arishok and no one bothered to be on alert.

Yes, it's almost as though there's an armistice with the Qunari that was established with the Llomerryn Accord and the Chantry has to maintain peace to avoid another war.

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

According to the fact that you could explore the whole thing in DAO and also that when Irving talked about numbers, he obviously wasn't talking about huge ones.  If hundreds or thousands of mages had died because of Uldred, I think that scene would have played out quite a lot different.

Game mechanics =/= Lore. If it did, Lothering and Redcliffe would have very small populations.

Vormaerin wrote...

And the point of the Band of Three is that people don't realize the history of the veil issues in Kirkwall.   Which is a lot different than the daily requisition for food for 5000 people....  hard to miss that.

It doesn't take much to guess that housing mages in the same prison where the Tevinter used blood magic, had slaves, and killed them wouldn't be a good idea.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You've constantly thrown around the terms "hundreds" and "thousands", but there's never been any indication whatsoever what the numbers are.

We're told hundreds of mages have escaped from the Gallows through the mage underground, which is why I addressed hundreds of mages likely residing in the Gallows, and said it could possibly be thousands, but I never provided a specific number. 

Regardless of the lack of consensus on this debate, the Rite of Annulment is still an act of genocide committed on innocent people of the Gallows for the actions of one man who isn't a Circle mage.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Game mechanics =/= Lore. If it did, Lothering and Redcliffe would have very small populations.

Which is entirely in keeping with the medieval flavor of Fereldan.   Not sure how familiar you are with medieval demographics, but a city in 13th century England would only have 2-3 thousand residents.   The small villages around castles would often be a few hundred or less.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It doesn't take much to guess that housing mages in the same prison where the Tevinter used blood magic, had slaves, and killed them wouldn't be a good idea.

*rolls eyes*  That's the whole world pretty much.   Did you read the story?   The blood magic in Kirkwall was unusual because it was concealed. 

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You've constantly thrown around the terms "hundreds" and "thousands", but there's never been any indication whatsoever what the numbers are.

We're told hundreds of mages have escaped from the Gallows through the mage underground, which is why I addressed hundreds of mages likely residing in the Gallows, and said it could possibly be thousands, but I never provided a specific number. 

Regardless of the lack of consensus on this debate, the Rite of Annulment is still an act of genocide committed on innocent people of the Gallows for the actions of one man who isn't a Circle mage.

We're not told time frames either. Kirkwall's been a free city since 25 Ancient. The events of Dragon Age 2 are around 9:30 to 9:37 or so. This means that approximately 955 years have passed since Kirkwall freed itself from the Imperium. If three mages escaped each decade via mage underground, that would still be hundreds, and still no indication of the relative size of the circle(s).

[Vormaerin]

hoorayforicecream wrote.


We're not told time frames either. Kirkwall's been a free city since 25 Ancient. The events of Dragon Age 2 are around 9:30 to 9:37 or so. This means that approximately 955 years have passed since Kirkwall freed itself from the Imperium. If three mages escaped each decade via mage underground, that would still be hundreds, and still no indication of the relative size of the circle(s).

Certainly, if hundreds of mages had escaped in the past couple years or even in the time of Meredith's tenure, then that place is like a sieve. The gallows would be more like a half way house than a prison.


Meredith:  What news, Captain?
Cullen:  Quite good, Commander!   Only 20 wizards escaped this week, down 25% from last week!

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[Torax]

Judged by the Tunnels and so many other underground temples and things bellow Kirkwall. I have no doubts it's quite easy to get loose. It's only the Phylacteries that may be used to track you. If you destroy those you could probably bolt through the tunnels in off hours.

Modifié par Torax, 05 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[ddv.rsa]

@Vormaerin: Thank you. That is exactly the point I've been trying to make.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Rite of Annulment is not called on the Gallows because of what Anders did. It was authorized by the de facto only one able to, because of Anders. Meredith had already asked Elthina for the Rite to be called, but Elthina refused. After Anders murdered her, Meredith got herself a battlefield promotion, and called the Rite, which she probably already felt was long overdue.