243 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Hey, if Anakin Skywalker became jedi killing machine, so can your mage become mage killing machine! He will be like Dexter! Serial killer who is killing serial killers.

THINK ABOUT IT, SPIDERMAAAAN!

Modifié par Arppis, 05 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Zan Mura]

So the topic asks how to support templars as a mage, and in your text you say as a non-mage. Which is it?

Well, since the "as a mage" part would undoubtedly be more difficult, I suppose adressing that will also adress the other. I think the easiest way to answer that would be to think of patriotism for instance, or religion. Not all people defend their country or their religion to the last at the expense of everything else. Especially since a mageHawke is an apostate and basically enjoys special freedoms compared to the Circle mages, it can be argued that he has the necessary distance from the situation to actually side with the templars instead.

There was also that religious nut in the Fereldan Circle in DAO, who believed that her magic was a curse and that the templars were absolutely doing the right thing. I suppose that's one way to look at things too. Or instead of absolutes, you can just have a character who simply sees the Circle system as the better of two very bad options, the other being that the mages were free to roam and cause evil through blood magic.

The thing I like about DAO and DA2 is that I've always had great difficulty irl to see things from just one perspective. This is not something I take pride in, it's really a problem. People cannot relate to someone who almost never has an opinion since he believes all views are ultimately right or wrong. And it makes one wonder whether one is just openminded, or just a sheep who doesn't have the strength to decide and so decides to want to please everyone instead.

Regardless, I find it rather easy to justify siding with either mages or templars. Although my most common character concept is mostly pacifist, but definitely pro-mage. But that's just because I happen to love mysticism and the concept of magic and the supernatural as a person. If it makes you feel any better, BW themselves have made it abundantly clear that there is *no* right option. It was the whole point, the thing they were going for. As Gaider I believe said, anyone who believes the game offers absolutes of right or wrong, is deluding themselves.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rite of Annulment is not called on the Gallows because of what Anders did. It was authorized by the de facto only one able to, because of Anders. Meredith had already asked Elthina for the Rite to be called, but Elthina refused. After Anders murdered her, Meredith got herself a battlefield promotion, and called the Rite, which she probably already felt was long overdue.

If that is the case, then Anders probably only beat Meridith to the punch.  If the only thing between a Knight Commader and complete power is the pesky little detail of murdering the Grand Cleric, then all Grand Clerics should hire bodyguards...pronto and NOT Templar ones.  We already know that Meridith is more than ruthless enough to order the murder of those that get in her way.  If what you say is true (and what DG implies is true) then the oversight system is completely broken and Anders beat Meridith to the punch.

Indeed, I might wonder if Meridith might have given Anders covert assistance in his plan (without even Anders realizing it).

-Polaris

[Augustei]

Sarielle wrote...

Doing a second playthrough, and Bethany is such a sweetie...so I don't really ever see myself being able to distance myself enough from that (plus my family is very important to me irl, also hard to distance from) to go pro-Templar as a non-mage. That said, I DO want to pursue this avenue at some point....which really only leaves me as a mage...supporting the Templars.

Thing is, I'm having trouble making it make sense. I need to have a pretty solid idea of a character before I start, and I just can't come up with one for this.

If anyone else has gone down this path, what was your character's justification?

initially remain neutral until the final choice, your position as champion gives you influence over the situation and you can spare bethany. Your hawke had been in Kirkwall for like 7 years building up a life and doesn't want it to be all for nothing. Your Title is something to protect you, plus before she goes completely insane Meredith allows you to live outside of the circle and maintain your title since if she imprisoned you the people would not accept it and maybe riot. And  Because you have proven to be strong and powerful she allows you to be outside the circle but uses it as a means to essentially have you on a leash and do her dirty work. Otherwise if you defy her / the templars your life is essentially fallen apart since you have to go in hiding from the order put your assosiates through that as well and well yeah lol

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed, I might wonder if Meridith might have given Anders covert assistance in his plan (without even Anders realizing it).

-Polaris

And I might wonder if mages in the circle might have given Anders covert assistance in his plan.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed, I might wonder if Meridith might have given Anders covert assistance in his plan (without even Anders realizing it).

-Polaris

Maybe Elthina set it up herself so she wouldn't have to condone invoking the rite of annullment and still getting it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rite of Annulment is not called on the Gallows because of what Anders did. It was authorized by the de facto only one able to, because of Anders. Meredith had already asked Elthina for the Rite to be called, but Elthina refused. After Anders murdered her, Meredith got herself a battlefield promotion, and called the Rite, which she probably already felt was long overdue.

If that is the case, then Anders probably only beat Meridith to the punch.  If the only thing between a Knight Commader and complete power is the pesky little detail of murdering the Grand Cleric, then all Grand Clerics should hire bodyguards...pronto and NOT Templar ones.  We already know that Meridith is more than ruthless enough to order the murder of those that get in her way.  If what you say is true (and what DG implies is true) then the oversight system is completely broken and Anders beat Meridith to the punch.

Indeed, I might wonder if Meridith might have given Anders covert assistance in his plan (without even Anders realizing it).

-Polaris

She may seem Ruthless, but she would never disobey the direct orders of a Grand Cleric. She isn't half as ruthless as many on this forum are trying to make her sound like. In case you didn't notice, all of her accusations against the mages, are true. There is a bunch of Maleficar within the Circle planning to overthrow it. And what's this? You actually try and speculate that Meredith would ever kill the Grand Cleric? While I give you, she may have after she went bat**** insane, she never would do so before. Meredith would never assist an apostate in destroying everything she ever worked for either.
The only one who ever assisted Anders was Hawke, falling for that whole "uhm, you are gonna have to get me these ingredients, to help me cure myself of the incurable.... Yeah..."

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

If the only thing between a Knight Commader and complete power is the pesky little detail of murdering the Grand Cleric, then all Grand Clerics should hire bodyguards...pronto and NOT Templar ones. 

-Polaris

I don't think Meredith is the right sort of crazy for that scheme.  I also think you are being a bit ridiculous.  A Knight Commander doesn't get "complete power" by killing the Grand Cleric.   He or she gets perhap a few weeks of autonomy before a new Grand Cleric arrives.   Perhaps less than that if the Reverend Mother, or whatever the #2 on the clerical side is called, gets promoted directly.

The death of the Grand Cleric and her subordinates in the middle of a crisis gave Meredith some maneuvering room to execute her scheme.   Is it conceivable that a KC might murder for that brief bit of autonomy?   Sure, crazier things have happened. But its sure a stretch to imagine a situation where its likely.

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Game mechanics =/= Lore. If it did, Lothering and Redcliffe would have very small populations.

Which is entirely in keeping with the medieval flavor of Fereldan.   Not sure how familiar you are with medieval demographics, but a city in 13th century England would only have 2-3 thousand residents.   The small villages around castles would often be a few hundred or less.

And there were towns that had a population exceeding 1,000. I don't see your point.

Vormaerin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't take much to guess that housing mages in the same prison where the Tevinter used blood magic, had slaves, and killed them wouldn't be a good idea.

*rolls eyes*  That's the whole world pretty much.   Did you read the story?   The blood magic in Kirkwall was unusual because it was concealed. 

I don't understand why you're rolling your eyes. The Tevinter Imperium's history of slavery and death is part of the reason the Veil in the Circle Tower at Ferelden was likely so weak. Even Wynne makes a comment about it in "A Broken Circle." Even the ruler of Ferelden comments to Knight-Commander Greagoir about the weak Veil at the Circle Tower in the U.S. for the Magi Warden.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And there were towns that had a population exceeding 1,000. I don't see your point.

My point was that the small size of Lothering and Redcliffe is not a problem.  Sure, they could be small cities.  But they don't look anything like a small city or large town.  They look like villages.


I don't know what the weak veil at the Fereldan Tower has to do with anything.  You specifically commented about the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries indicating that secret Tevinter magic seems to have gone on at Kirkwall, making it even more crazy than usual.  That isn't common knowledge, so using it as an example for why having a Circle as Kirkwall in particular is bad didn't make sense.

As far as general Tevinter sites...that's everywhere.   If you rule out building anywhere the Tevinter mages worked, you'd probably have to build from scratch as far from any current city as possible.   I don't see how that point had anything to do with mine, which was that concentrating a hypoethetical thousands of mages in one complex was needlessly and stupidly expensive and dangerous.   An establishment of 3000 wizards would be harder, not easier, for the Templars to control, supply, protect, and generally manage than a number of smaller complexes.

So if there really are thousands of mages in the Free Marches....which could be true, but seems implausible based on the information we have about economy and infrastructure.....it would be extremely unlikely that they'd only have two Circles. 

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

We're not told time frames either. Kirkwall's been a free city since 25 Ancient. The events of Dragon Age 2 are around 9:30 to 9:37 or so. This means that approximately 955 years have passed since Kirkwall freed itself from the Imperium. If three mages escaped each decade via mage underground, that would still be hundreds, and still no indication of the relative size of the circle(s).

I've never claimed to provide a specific number of people, but if Kirkwall has a population in the millions (and medieval England had a population that's estimated to have been 2.8 million in 1200 and 5.0 million in 1300, so it wouldn't surprise me if Kirkwall had a similar population) and the neighboring city-states had a similar population of people, and the Gallows is housing the men, women, and children with magical ability from the Free Marches, why do you assume it's a minimal population we're talkng about?

We have no statistical information provided on how many people actually reside in Kirkwall or the rest of the Free Marches, so it's difficulty to say if the creators are using medieval estimates or modern estimates). It would likely be in the hundreds as the Gallows is the only facility the templars used throughout the entire region of the Free Marches to imprison mages (with the burning of the Starkhaven Circle), but it could also be in the thousands - again, it's at the descretion of the creators who created DA.

We have one single Circle of Magi in the Free Marches standing to imprison mages in, in a time period where it's expressed that there are more mages now than there have been before. I've provided broad estimates, while all I see are people trying to claim that it's impossible for the Circle of Magi to have a large population when it's the only Circle of Magi being used to imprison mages in the Free Marches.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rite of Annulment is not called on the Gallows because of what Anders did. It was authorized by the de facto only one able to, because of Anders. Meredith had already asked Elthina for the Rite to be called, but Elthina refused. After Anders murdered her, Meredith got herself a battlefield promotion, and called the Rite, which she probably already felt was long overdue.

Meredith was also mentally unstable and thought Knight-Captain Cullen was a victim of blood magic later on, but both Meredith and Orsino address the attack on the Chantry as the reason behind the Rite. Meredith points out specifically that the people "will demand blood." She orders the genocide of the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle for an action they had nothing to do with.

[sphinxess]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Doing a second playthrough, and Bethany is such a sweetie...so I don't really ever see myself being able to distance myself enough from that (plus my family is very important to me irl, also hard to distance from) to go pro-Templar as a non-mage. That said, I DO want to pursue this avenue at some point....which really only leaves me as a mage...supporting the Templars.

Thing is, I'm having trouble making it make sense. I need to have a pretty solid idea of a character before I start, and I just can't come up with one for this.

If anyone else has gone down this path, what was your character's justification?

initially remain neutral until the final choice, your position as champion gives you influence over the situation and you can spare bethany. Your hawke had been in Kirkwall for like 7 years building up a life and doesn't want it to be all for nothing. Your Title is something to protect you, plus before she goes completely insane Meredith allows you to live outside of the circle and maintain your title since if she imprisoned you the people would not accept it and maybe riot. And  Because you have proven to be strong and powerful she allows you to be outside the circle but uses it as a means to essentially have you on a leash and do her dirty work. Otherwise if you defy her / the templars your life is essentially fallen apart since you have to go in hiding from the order put your assosiates through that as well and well yeah lol

 
Bethany is still around to be spared? oh well no surprise - the Templars cant even follow directions well for performing a Rite of Annulment

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've never claimed to provide a specific number of people, but if Kirkwall has a population in the millions (and medieval England had a population that's estimated to have been 2.8 million in 1200 and 5.0 million in 1300, so it wouldn't surprise me if Kirkwall had a similar population) and the neighboring city-states had a similar population of people, and the Gallows is housing the men, women, and children with magical ability from the Free Marches, why do you assume it's a minimal population we're talkng about?

.

Your argument is about slaughtering thousands, though.  And you have no more basis for that claim than I would if I said its dozens.  We don't know.   But there are reasons to argue against both extremes.

England is a lot more than a city state.   England in that period also only had one city larger than about 5,000 people, which was London.   And it was about 20,000 or so.   So if we use that, you are arguing that one in 6 people in the city are mages and and equal number templars?  Obviously not.

Again, we don't know anything about the rate of mages.   It could be 1 in 100,000.  It could be 1 in 10.   We have no idea.  We don't know anything about the demographics of the city or the free marches.  We know that Starkhaven and Fereldan refugees have swollen the mage population, but also that the Gallows are apparently a sieve from which mages can leave at will if Anders' claims are anything to do with recent history.

Sorry, your demand that we respond to your claim of "genocidal slaughter of thousands of amges" is just not valid.  You are making that number up out of thin air based on pure speculation.  I don't think its nearly that many.   But I have no idea what the devs think the numbers are.  Neither do you.

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

Your argument is about slaughtering thousands, though.  And you have no more basis for that claim than I would if I said its dozens.  We don't know.   But there are reasons to argue against both extremes.

I've repeatedly said there are likely hundreds, but possibly thousands, of mages who Hawke never encounters.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Your argument is about slaughtering thousands, though.  And you have no more basis for that claim than I would if I said its dozens.  We don't know.   But there are reasons to argue against both extremes.

I've repeatedly said there are likely hundreds, but possibly thousands, of mages who Hawke never encounters.

And its not a valid question, because we don't know if 60 mages is a lot or if thousands is a lot.   We also don't know anything about the conditions inside.  Maybe there are lots of untainted wizards hiding somewhere.   Maybe there are not.  We don't know.  We just know there's widespread corruption in the Circle.   Maybe its a large minority, maybe its a vast majority.  Any assertion either way is a guess.


And YES WE SHOULD KNOW MORE THAN WE DO.   We know templars, we know mages, we live in the darn city.  We have contact with the mage underground.   And we should have been able to follow up on Quentin's contacts in the Circle.   So the dev's have hung us out to dry on this question.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 12:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

And its not a valid question, because we don't know if 60 mages is a lot or if thousands is a lot.   We also don't know anything about the conditions inside.  Maybe there are lots of untainted wizards hiding somewhere.   Maybe there are not.  We don't know.  We just know there's widespread corruption in the Circle.   Maybe its a large minority, maybe its a vast majority.  Any assertion either way is a guess.

"We know"? No, we don't know that. What we do know is that Meredith has ordered the genocide of men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

"We know"? No, we don't know that. What we do know is that Meredith has ordered the genocide of men, women, and children for an act they had nothing to do with.

We also know its infested with blood mages and abominations, because we've met quite a few Circle mages who are and the game blocks us from any further investigation of any of it.   So we are left to just guess blindly about whether we have evidence of a small number fo the total population or Meredith's vast majority.

If I'm siding pro-mage, I'm going to RP that its s sliver of the population. If I'm siding with the Templars,I'm going to RP that its the lion's share.   Because I am not allowed to find out no matter what I do. in game.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

We also know its infested with blood mages and abominations, because we've met quite a few Circle mages who are and the game blocks us from any further investigation of any of it.   So we are left to just guess blindly about whether we have evidence of a small number fo the total population or Meredith's vast majority.

It's also addressed there were "many survivors" (if Hawke sided with the mages) who weren't the antagonists that we faced in the Gallows.

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's also addressed there were "many survivors" (if Hawke sided with the mages) who weren't the antagonists that we faced in the Gallows.

Yeah.  And many survivors could be anything, because many is a relative number.   If there's 60 mages in the tower, many could be a dozen.  If there's 30000 mages in the Circle, many could be a city's worth.   Its more fluff to make us feel good about our choice without telling us anything.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarielle wrote...

Doing a second playthrough, and Bethany is such a sweetie...so I don't really ever see myself being able to distance myself enough from that (plus my family is very important to me irl, also hard to distance from) to go pro-Templar as a non-mage. That said, I DO want to pursue this avenue at some point....which really only leaves me as a mage...supporting the Templars.

Thing is, I'm having trouble making it make sense. I need to have a pretty solid idea of a character before I start, and I just can't come up with one for this.

If anyone else has gone down this path, what was your character's justification?

I've sided twice with the mages (as mages) twice with the templars (one as a mage, another as a warrior with Bethany in the Circle).

Mostly it was done to see different aspects of the game but for RP reasons, some of the dialogue fits a templar siding (particularly in an argument with Merrill, my warrior's LI). 

Anders has tied the PC's hands, mages are gonna be killed anyway, if not by the templars then by crazed/grieved/frightened citizens seeking an outlet to blame.  Human beings always want someone/thing to blame for everything bad in their lives.  The mages in the circle were screwed once Anders pushed that button no matter what side you picked.  Many will die, mostly those who never wanted to fight in the first place.

My Apostate Hawke was trying to minimizalize casualties on both sides (and most especially civilians, which were more important to him after his mother was killed by a blood mage), and felt being with the templars was a better way to take control of the situation.  If he was just another mage, he wouldn't be able to be on hand if Meredith did something to kill those who had no desire to fight (In the templar side, there is a cutscene to this effect even, and you can spare lives, and Cullen backs you up, countermanding KC Nutcase's orders).  In this run I had a GW Carver so I didn't have to worry about him being a templar you fight or anything.

Pretty much this was my warrior's thinking as well.  The mages were already screwed.  Better to control the situation as best you can and make sure Bethany got out of this alive.  And there was a cutscene for that too, where you tell Meredith to back off baby sister.  There was some concern that Bethany might have to fight him, but my Warrior Hawke knew he wouldn't be able to hurt his baby sister.

From a gaming standpoint the whole thing makes more logical sense storywise to side templars.  Orsino's entire scene/battle is much more satisfying on a templar side since he is portrayed there as duplicitous.  Templars revolt in other circles due to Hawke's involvement which made ZERO sense to me on a mage run but much more on a templar run where Hawke earns the templars' respect by showing courage, skill and wisdom in battle.

I don't know yet how Kit (my current rogue) will decide.  Bethany went the GW route this time and I will just wait and see.

One final note, no matter what his relationship with you, if you spare Anders he will leave you and confront you in the Gallows on a templar run.  I actually know someone who won't side templars because she will lose Anders.  If you are a player who can't bear to kill him then you won't be able to do a templar runthrough.

And my apologies to the board if these points have already been covered, but I didn't want to wade through 9 pages of postings to see everyone else's posts.

[Wulfram]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Templars revolt in other circles due to Hawke's involvement which made ZERO sense to me on a mage run but much more on a templar run where Hawke earns the templars' respect by showing courage, skill and wisdom in battle.

Why would Hawke earning the Templar's respect effect their likelyhood to revolt?  They're not showing support for Hawke, they're throwing off Chantry constraints so they can fight the mages more effectively.

[Vormaerin]

Actually, we don't know what the Templars are doing except that they aren't listening to the Grand Clerics any more. For all we know, they could be mutinying against the Divine's attempt to extirpate all mages. Probably not, but we don't know anything to the contrary.

[lordtru]

It's simple...your just a mage that hates mages so you help hunt them down in a dragon age inquisition

[sylvanaerie]

Just saying, no explanation is given why the templars revolt at the end. This made no sense to me supporting the mages if Hawke was the 'rallying force' behind what happened (as Varric claims in the tale). This made no sense to me as a mage supporting Hawke since where would be the templars motivation to revolt than to rally around the figurehead (as Varric does suggest).
Why would the templars revolt? They are addicted to Lyrium and most of them don't seem to be 'mage sympathetic' though I imagine a few are (as we were presented in the game). Even those who are sympathetic believed it was Meredith, not the Circle to blame for the problems in Kirkwall. Even as bad as things are, Thrask never asks you to free mages, he wants you to recover the ones in the cave and was apparently okay with you seeking another avenue for Feynriel's training. Whether or not he agreed with those decisions is beside the point, he went along with it, he didn't suggest it.
Templars would have to be under KC's as bad as Meredith to motivate them to revolt and it took 7 years and a complete descent into chaos for them to turn on Meredith herself.
Just saying FOR ME, for the story, templars revolting made more sense on a templar run than mage siding. Not saying it has to make sense for anyone else.