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Massive Scientific Mistakes of Mass Effect.


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#51
mrklean007

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aimlessgun wrote...

mrklean007 wrote...

Want something more impossible? FTL travel. Or "Element Zero".


Firstly, these are the core conceits of the universe.

Just because you have 1 impossible thing does not mean you can do whatever the hell you want. Realism is not all or nothing. The more unreal things you add, the less immersive your universe becomes. You have to balance Awesome Cool Stuff with Realism, so you have a mix of both.

If you mix Realism with Awesome Cool Stuff, people are likely to just accept the few unrealistic things. Eezo is a brilliant core conceit because with only 1 unrealistic premise they can cover a lot of Awesome Cool Stuff.

The more the balance tips towards complete realism, the more 'boring' scifi can become. The more it tilts towards "whatever looks cool", the less immersive it is.

Limits are good for design. They force you to really take the time to make something good, and to show creativity within that framework. Anyone who has worked in a design profession can tell you that.




Oh, I know, and completely agree. I'm just observing (very not-seriously) that its funny how people can get irked by the game's somewhat inacurate off-hand mention of amino acids in the face far more blatant impossiblities.

#52
Scimal

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Zelnik wrote...

These are mostly focused on biology, since that is my feild of study, but some of these make me think the writers really did not even consider checking their sources.

1. Humanity has great genetic diversity.
This is not only false, but grossly false.  Of all of the primapes on the planet, we are the LEAST genetically diverse. We are more closely related to a member of the opposite gender on the other side of the planet, then a chimpanzee is related to it's sibling.  Humanity suffered a massive genetic bottleneck some 50,000 years ago (probably due to Mt. Toba exploding), and the results are extremely clear today. The huge amounts of cancers and genetic disorders found in humanity are the best example of this. 


Mrmrmr... Yes and no. Our fantastically large population is turning up some very interesting examples. We're more genetically diverse than you think, but nowhere near as much as other creatures.

However, the DNA double-helix all life on the planet uses as a template is incredibly diverse. It houses a lot of potential, most of it we don't understand fully yet.

Also, compared to the other sapient ME species - humans are genetically diverse. Even with random mutations, Asari are too long-lived to have a lot of diversity. The Krogan were, but the artificial bottlenecking event sort of solved that. Not much is made of the Volus or the Elcor, but the ol' froggies have notoriously weak genomes. The Quarians might be better, but even if they put in a lot of effort to move people around, there will be less diversity as they stay on the ships due to inbreeding and lack of exposure to enviornmental factors.

Out of the list of Sapient ME species, either the Turians or Humans are at the top.

2. A weak Immune system involves fevers, allergic reactions, etc.
This assumption is actually a bit backwards.  If an organism has a STRONG immune system (or hyperactive immune system), the above examples occur.  A WEAK immune system would have no reaction at all to a foreign pathogen, and the only sign of illness would probably be death, or necrosis.  All of the Quarian examples of "weak immune system" make any medical professional very confused (I know, I am one, and so is my father).  The described reactions show more of a hyperactive allergic response.


That's because you misunderstood the dialog. When Tali speaks about getting a fever from Chickenpox, she's talking about the Quarian reaction to L-Amino Acid bacteria or viruses. Since her body can't process the threat, it overreacts - thus an allergic reaction. Our bodies would probably do the same thing if there were any significant threats that actually used L-AA's, but there's only a handful of uses for them - and not a single organism on Earth that uses them exclusively.

Fever, however, is not necessarily a sign of a strong immune system. It's just a sign of a present immune system. Fevers are the most basic response - you heat the body up to slow down the rate of bacterial enzymes while your immune cells take care of it.

Strong and weak immune systems induce fever in humans. The length of the fever usually betrays which it is, since once the threat is gone, the fever breaks.

3. Eating Dexter compounds is a BAD THING!
Splenda would like a word with you.  Yes, it's true that you can develop a response against it, but allrgies to Dextrose are rare, but its MUCH more common for it to just pass through your system.  I understand the hypersensitivity for the quarians, but Turians would probably just have the runs for a while.


Sugars are one thing, Proteins another. Human metabolic pathways exist for L-chiral sugars (not all, but some). The rest can pass through harmlessly.

If you eat a buttload of messed up AA's, and they get incorporated into your cells, you are probably screwed. The thing is, there aren't anywhere near enough D-AA's in nature to do this.

4. Dextro-Amino acids could KILL YOU!!!!
Similar to 3, but any immunologist would tell you that this is extremely unlikely. When protiens hit our gut, they are broken down into their individual amino acids (this is assuming our proteases work on dextro-amino-acids).  amino acids are TERRIBLE antigens, since their molecular weight is so small.  Odds are they would not even be absorbed by the intestinal mucosa. 
IF they were NOT broken down by the proteases, the HCL would denature the protien chains, though it would be more likely that these could yeild an immune response (though this is also unlikely, since they probably won't pass through the intestinal mucosa either.


Like I said above. The danger isn't that they'd cause cramps. The danger from something like that would probably be incorporating them into cellular activity. If you mess with Enzyme active sites, you mess with your cell's ability to get stuff done. Do that, and it's a short road to the grave depending on the enzyme and how badly the alternate AA's affect the active site.

5. You can walk outside in a vaccum with skin exposed.
This should be pretty damn obvious. If a shield breaks down due to radiation from a hot star, why isn't it breaking down from temperatures around 4 Kelvin?


1) You can survive in a vacuum - in space - for a few minutes, naked. The atmospheric difference is going to kill you much faster than the cold will. Your body is surprisingly well insulated, and it can't transfer heat into the surrounding nothingness faster than your lungs give out and your blood boils.

2) Why radiation causes shields to break down and not extreme cold? One is an incredible overabundance of energy, the other is an incredible lack of energy. I don't think a lack of heat ever caused any decay to accelerate.

6. Aliens look just like us.
Seriously.. must everything in science fiction have four limbs, two eyes, one nose, boobs, and...oooo blue skin.. :o


Some body plans prevail over others. Some may be more suited to sentience than others.

Dunno. Will tell you once they start sending us pics. ;-)

#53
AdmiralCheez

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javierabegazo wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

All I got from this thread is that Garrus tastes like sugar.

LET THE INGESTING BEGIN!


I started laughing at this until I remembered a certain disturbing scene in District 9 concerning a hungry south african warlord and superstition......

It's okay.  I don't do voodoo.  Well, except on Fridays, and only on small, herbivorous mammals.

Anyway, yeah, as was stated before, ME's a space opera.  Science need not apply.  I'd prefer it if it did, but it's not necessary.

#54
aimlessgun

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Nicely written rebuttal scimal. I await the OP's response. It feels like I'm learning something!

mrklean007 wrote...

Oh, I know, and completely agree. I'm just observing (very not-seriously) that its funny how people can get irked by the game's somewhat inacurate off-hand mention of amino acids in the face far more blatant impossiblities.


Hehe, getting riled up about the amino acid thing might be a bit too far. Almost nobody will notice, and it neatly accomplishes it's main goal, which is to deliver the idea that aliens have to eat different food.

#55
Gangsta914

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aimlessgun wrote...

mrklean007 wrote...

Want something more impossible? FTL travel. Or "Element Zero".


Firstly, these are the core conceits of the universe.

Just because you have 1 impossible thing does not mean you can do whatever the hell you want. Realism is not all or nothing. The more unreal things you add, the less immersive your universe becomes. You have to balance Awesome Cool Stuff with Realism, so you have a mix of both.

If you mix Realism with Awesome Cool Stuff, people are likely to just accept the few unrealistic things. Eezo is a brilliant core conceit because with only 1 unrealistic premise they can cover a lot of Awesome Cool Stuff.

The more the balance tips towards complete realism, the more 'boring' scifi can become. The more it tilts towards "whatever looks cool", the less immersive it is.

Limits are good for design. They force you to really take the time to make something good, and to show creativity within that framework. Anyone who has worked in a design profession can tell you that.





I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB

#56
Beertastic

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Gangsta914 wrote...

I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB


I doubt it is incredibly immersion breaking for most, however, there is nothing wrong with pointing out and discussing possible flaws in a fiction universe, particularly when it is sci-fi. Also, I feel that a lot of people who enjoy sci-fi probably like to see how a fiction story incorporates things like FTL travel into a believable setting, of course, that's just my guess.

#57
JustinTR

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Sci fi does NOT have to abide by absolute fact or physics! Scifi tells of science and technology. Usually of the future. They can change physics and biology if they damn well please! It does help if it is explained though. Fiction allows storytellers to be creative with the universe. If they used real world physics all the time, it would be boring! We know nothing of alien races. Are you going to go ahead now and say 'well we don't even know if aliens exist'? Cut the crap! Seriously! Either enjoy tthe game or don't! Stop being so picky you whiners!

#58
Sigma Tauri

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JustinTR wrote...

Sci fi does NOT have to abide by absolute fact or physics! Scifi tells of science and technology. Usually of the future. They can change physics and biology if they damn well please! It does help if it is explained though. Fiction allows storytellers to be creative with the universe. If they used real world physics all the time, it would be boring! We know nothing of alien races. Are you going to go ahead now and say 'well we don't even know if aliens exist'? Cut the crap! Seriously! Either enjoy tthe game or don't! Stop being so picky you whiners!


There's more than one way to enjoy the game. If it means being picky and critical, that's fine. People have a right to think critically about ****, even if  it's a space opera. But, stop telling people to subscribe to being zombies.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 05 avril 2011 - 05:10 .


#59
Gangsta914

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Beertastic wrote...

Gangsta914 wrote...

I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB



I doubt it is incredibly immersion breaking for most, however, there is nothing wrong with pointing out and discussing possible flaws in a fiction universe, particularly when it is sci-fi. Also, I feel that a lot of people who enjoy sci-fi probably like to see how a fiction story incorporates things like FTL travel into a believable setting, of course, that's just my guess.



I didn't mean to make that sound like there is something wrong with discussing any of this, but when you talk about how Bioware should have done more research and they should fix it or not make the mistakes etc etc, then I think it turns into people complaining or nitpicking over it, but thats just my opinion Image IPB

#60
Cancer Puppet

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Zelnik wrote...

thanks apotheosic!
here is some reference material for you
http://www.millipore...ibodiestutorial

Specifically, the section of "good antigen characteristics" as follows

* Areas of structural stability and chemical complexity within the molecule.
* Significant stretches lacking extensive repeating units.
* A minimal molecular weight of 8,000–10,000 Daltons, although haptens with molecular weights as low as 200 Da have been used in the presence of a carrier protein
* The ability to be processed by the immune system.
* Immunogenic regions which are accessible to the antibody-forming mechanism.
* Structural elements that are sufficiently different from the host.
* For peptide antigens, regions containing at least 30% of immunogenic amino acids: K, R, E, D, Q, N.
* For peptide antigens, significant hydrophilic or charged residues.

For those about to leap on the "some as low as 200 daltons" arguement... There is only one amino acid I know of that meets the 200 dalton mark, and that is tryptophan. The rest range between 180 and 70 daltons.


Shoot. I was just about to jump on the "some as low as 200 daltons" arguement too...

#61
mrklean007

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Beertastic wrote...

Gangsta914 wrote...

I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB


I doubt it is incredibly immersion breaking for most, however, there is nothing wrong with pointing out and discussing possible flaws in a fiction universe, particularly when it is sci-fi. Also, I feel that a lot of people who enjoy sci-fi probably like to see how a fiction story incorporates things like FTL travel into a believable setting, of course, that's just my guess.


Actually, the way they explain alot of these things is one of the reasons I enjoyed ME so much...A kind of explanation that doesn't go too in-depth but actually tries to make it sound plausible.

#62
AdmiralCheez

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mrklean007 wrote...

Actually, the way they explain alot of these things is one of the reasons I enjoyed ME so much...A kind of explanation that doesn't go too in-depth but actually tries to make it sound plausible.

Same here, and most of the time they leave enough room to "make it work" if you bend the rules of the universe a little.

#63
mrklean007

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aimlessgun wrote...

Nicely written rebuttal scimal. I await the OP's response. It feels like I'm learning something!

mrklean007 wrote...

Oh, I know, and completely agree. I'm just observing (very not-seriously) that its funny how people can get irked by the game's somewhat inacurate off-hand mention of amino acids in the face far more blatant impossiblities.


Hehe, getting riled up about the amino acid thing might be a bit too far. Almost nobody will notice, and it neatly accomplishes it's main goal, which is to deliver the idea that aliens have to eat different food.


Which, well , makes sense...cuz you know, they're aliens...

#64
Dave666

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JustinTR wrote...

Sci fi does NOT have to abide by absolute fact or physics! Scifi tells of science and technology. Usually of the future. They can change physics and biology if they damn well please! It does help if it is explained though. Fiction allows storytellers to be creative with the universe. If they used real world physics all the time, it would be boring! We know nothing of alien races. Are you going to go ahead now and say 'well we don't even know if aliens exist'? Cut the crap! Seriously! Either enjoy tthe game or don't! Stop being so picky you whiners!


Yes Master, I shall turn of my brain Master, whatever you say Master, I shall only like what you like Master.

#65
JustinTR

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Im not telling people to be zombies! Im saying use your imagination! I play games like this so that I can enjoy the universe of the game and if there's anything off, I use my imagination to fill the holes in the plot or physics. There are threads about things like this all the time and people come off as overly douchey and pretentious. If I wanted real life, I would never play video games. The intrigue comes from what isn't explained. Things that seem impossible with todays tech. You can point out things that aren't explained. I agree on a lot of points. But when people think im an idiot for not caring about these things? THAT pisses me off

#66
aimlessgun

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Gangsta914 wrote...
I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB


No, I didn't notice the first 4 things. After Scimals response I'm waiting to see if they're really issues at all.

But in general, you're right, missing small details is not a big problem if most of your audience won't notice. The space suit thing though...that one is a bit obvious. Making a real suit for Jack would have given them a benefit above and beyond simply avoiding criticism: people would see the change and think "hey, Bioware thought about this stuff and put in the effort to make it right, good work!"

#67
Sigma Tauri

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Scimal wrote...
Mrmrmr... Yes and no. Our fantastically large population is turning up
some very interesting examples. We're more genetically diverse than you
think, but nowhere near as much as other creatures.

However, the DNA double-helix all life on the planet uses as a template is incredibly diverse. It houses a lot of potential, most of it we don't understand fully yet.

Also, compared to the other sapient ME species - humans are
genetically diverse. Even with random mutations, Asari are too
long-lived to have a lot of diversity. The Krogan were, but the
artificial bottlenecking event sort of solved that. Not much is made of
the Volus or the Elcor, but the ol' froggies have notoriously weak
genomes. The Quarians might be better, but even if they put in a lot of
effort to move people around, there will be less diversity as they stay
on the ships due to inbreeding and lack of exposure to enviornmental
factors.

Out of the list of Sapient ME species, either the Turians or Humans are at the top.


Well, the assumption about other sentient ME species is that they use DNA as double helix either, particularly asari where they read through the genetic memory of a mate. Of course, using DNA as a book of information doesn't say much about each alien species' diversity. I think Mordin's statements are just facts about the Mass Effect world than anything supported by data. We can guess the reasons like what you said, but we have to the take statement as it is. Frankly, Mordin saying about human genetic diversity can be interpreted as heroes are born from humble origins, i.e. Shepherd exemplified the best of human lineages. It's sugar-coating mythology with science.

Like I said above. The danger isn't that they'd cause cramps. The danger from something like that would probably be incorporating them into cellular activity. If you mess with Enzyme active sites, you mess with your cell's ability to get stuff done. Do that, and it's a short road to the grave depending on the enzyme and how badly the alternate AA's affect the active site.


But, that's not really what Mordin said though. He said, "Human ingestion of tissue could provoke allergic reaction," which may be understandable since any foreign, alien biological substance can likely cause problems. But, it's also logical that having contact with any alien species regardless of chirality can cause problems as well. I mean, there's no mention of medical advice given to humans mating with asari (then again, it doesn't mean it's not extant).

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 05 avril 2011 - 05:54 .


#68
Dave666

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JustinTR wrote...

Im not telling people to be zombies! Im saying use your imagination! I play games like this so that I can enjoy the universe of the game and if there's anything off, I use my imagination to fill the holes in the plot or physics. There are threads about things like this all the time and people come off as overly douchey and pretentious. If I wanted real life, I would never play video games. The intrigue comes from what isn't explained. Things that seem impossible with todays tech. You can point out things that aren't explained. I agree on a lot of points. But when people think im an idiot for not caring about these things? THAT pisses me off


See, now this I understand, but you have to remember that not everyone will feel as you do.  I actually enjoy a good debate on something ingame that felt off to me, sometimes someone will suggest something that makes it click into place, sometimes its the reverse.  The thing is, when things feel off to me then they throw me out of the game a little and like you I play games so that I can enjoy the universe.  A good thing about threads like this popping up so much is that it may make the writers pay a little more attention to the details.  I certainly don't expect them to be perfect, things are going to slip the net.

Modifié par Dave666, 05 avril 2011 - 05:27 .


#69
Gangsta914

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aimlessgun wrote...

Gangsta914 wrote...
I bet you 90% of the people who play ME don't see these mistakes and honestly wouldn't care about them if they did. I didn't see these mistakes, and having them pointed out to me doesn't change anything. A game is a......game. I'm not saying that because its a game that you can just go off and make it consist of incredibly ridiculous stuff, but really....does it really take you out of the story of the game? If it does then you are in a very small percent of people who think the same way, in my opinion. 
I just don't see any of these things being a huge problem to the point where it takes me out of the story of the game...Image IPB


No, I didn't notice the first 4 things. After Scimals response I'm waiting to see if they're really issues at all.

But in general, you're right, missing small details is not a big problem if most of your audience won't notice. The space suit thing though...that one is a bit obvious. Making a real suit for Jack would have given them a benefit above and beyond simply avoiding criticism: people would see the change and think "hey, Bioware thought about this stuff and put in the effort to make it right, good work!"



Obvious mistakes are obvious and fixing them would have made it better for Bioware like you said. But from my stand point very minor details just don't seem to effect me as much as others, but to each their own lol. Image IPB

#70
Sigma Tauri

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JustinTR wrote...

Im not telling people to be zombies! Im saying use your imagination! I play games like this so that I can enjoy the universe of the game and if there's anything off, I use my imagination to fill the holes in the plot or physics. There are threads about things like this all the time and people come off as overly douchey and pretentious. If I wanted real life, I would never play video games. The intrigue comes from what isn't explained. Things that seem impossible with todays tech. You can point out things that aren't explained. I agree on a lot of points. But when people think im an idiot for not caring about these things? THAT pisses me off


You're hinging on the idea that small holes in scientific accuracy is somehow ruinous to the game's enjoyment. It doesn't. There are several aspects of the game we can enjoy. That doesn't mean we should use our imagination to do Bioware's homework so we can create a false sense of continuity. If that's your method to cope, that's fine. But, it's not really necessary.

Although science threads do make us look totally nerdy.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 05 avril 2011 - 05:34 .


#71
xI extremist Ix

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Why can I control a person with a keyboard? I am serious.

#72
JustinTR

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There are people that think that even the smallest holes destroy the game for them. Those are the people I refer to. To me, it just seems like nobody can come up with their own answers based on the tech in the specific universe. I didn't say the things in this threadwerent interesting and I do actually apologize for coming off as an ass

Modifié par JustinTR, 05 avril 2011 - 05:40 .


#73
Kane-Corr

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-Ahem-

"Would you like fries with that?"

#74
Whereto

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I don't believe these threads sometimes. It's a sci fi game guys, if it was all factual, it would be real life in lesser quality resolution

#75
kidbd15

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While I didn't read after page 2 of this topic, I'm going to have to agree with OP. Things like FTL are okay for not being real, because they at least attempt to explain it realistically.

However, everything else that is known as scientific fact now, should be researched properly by BioWare's crack staff. Skin to open space is an obvious no-no, and BW should be slapped for that.

Quarians and their immune system... all BW had to do was ask their FOUNDERS a couple of questions, and there you go. As for all species looking similar to humans, doesn't bother me too much. I'd rather that than a bunch of other things I can't relate to.

And sci-fi should be grounded in reality... IMO

Modifié par kidbd15, 05 avril 2011 - 05:49 .