198 réponses à ce sujet

[aimlessgun]

PS: Zelnik, have you addressed Scimal's comments on pg3?

[neal sonntag]

I dont know about biology but some of the other stuff i was impressed with. I was reading an article about quantum entanglement and how it could be used for instant communication. soon after reading that EDI explained that and how they use it for communication. I think they did good with alot of the science stuff.

[Tarek]

JustinTR wrote...

Oh ffs....

indeed

I have no energy to destroy him, just got back from work, someone else do it

[Quintega]

Zelnik wrote...

Quintega, your statements make me glad that I probably have not read your books

Being an author does not give you basis to comment on a scientific matter on equal footing with a scientific professional. The moment you said "evolution is pure speculation" your entire arguement was thrown out the window.

Since you cannot tell the difference between "Scientific Theory" and "Speculation", I suggest you go back to school and pay attention to your lab classes, maybe you will learn a thing or two.

Yes, I confess I am basing 1 on human biology, but that's what I have to work with. They are describing alien biology in human terms.

The thing is, Science fiction should only have to use "fiction" when necessary. Getting established science wrong is sloppy, and the authors should know better.

I love how you miss read things I said before Science cannot prove what doesn't exist only what does. I said Evolution is near proven. But the problem is it is still classified a Theory. I said what we evolved from key word is WHAT is speculation. I know plenty about evolution and I have heard more then most in the theory of what we came from. But no fact has proven All human's but I will reclarify to Humanoids. 

What most scientist refuse to accept and this is not speculation but a theory I have had long before I became an author back in the time I was studying Science for Archeology and I discovered Discrepencies. in that theory that all humans came from one class of monkey. I said that was speculation and there is good reason. Look at every domestic dog and Cat alive. Each comes from 1 branch and so do humans supposedly. Yet we also have found Humans came from at least 5 types. Same time saying every thing came from one Monkey one cat one wolf. Look I don't care who you studied under you would know Genetics 101 about inbreeding. 

I say your theory of Evolution being limited to one type of monkey is speculation.  But I gave up science since I don't agree with the science board on how things are done. I never did having a rigid this only does this method is very short sighted. I know both scientific theory and method well. But they are both Flawed. For the same reason arguing my point is flawed because I said humans coming from 1 monkey breed was flawed. 

It doesn't take a genius to look at the Physiological components of each human nationality then point out the drastic differences. I also say IF because there are some people who don't believe in evolution. 

SO I say once again your argument is to narrow sited and flawed as poiinted out in the previous post. Also I say IF again to be polite to those who don't believe in it . If humans were Evolved they would be from multiple breeds of the species not one type.

Finally using an Ad-Hominim is very childish and actually destroys an argument. I however am not attacking you just pointing out the flaw in you statement since you did not read the whole post. 

Also I will state this one more time I know both Scientific method and Theory plus I know speculation. And A theory is something not proven. 

Since to correctly use Scientifc theory to prove Evolution from one monkey type as fact would require Baseline genetic testing on every human and every monkey found. Plus I laugh at the fact no one has considered the opposite maybe monkeys evolved from us. Breeds like people can go different directions including breeding yourself stupid

[Elvis_Mazur]

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! THE BIOWARE TEAM WOULD STEP IN IF IT WAS FORMED BY SCIENTISTS! I DEMAND ACTION!

[Powgow]

Lets just assume that life only popped up once in the galaxy, and that via the process of panspermia, the entire galaxy has been sowed with the same seed.

Hence, all life has DNA, all life looks kinda similar, because they all started out with DNA-system that sets limits on the scale and variability of life.

Why is all sapient life bipedal? Well, why they are BIpedal, I dont know. but they have to have atleast one set of limbs free  to be able to use tools and manifest their intelligence and eventually start the fuse of advance by finding the holy grail: FIRE!

SO, the only thing that does not fit are the stupid Hanar. because fire is impossible under water, and they would never be able to ascend to society. (or maybe the "enkindlers") did it for fun. Stupid jellyfish.

Voila, solution!

Modifié par Powgow, 05 avril 2011 - 05:01 .

[Sigma Tauri]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
/end thread

That was already mentioned way back the first page. You'd think it's worth to remind anyone, but that statement is just as dull as the arguer. Frankly, it wouldn't hurt you play along with this thread ego-stroking.

[AlanC9]

Quintega, why all the Odd Capitalization in your Posts?

[Zelnik]

Your arguement lacks weight scimal. First of all, most of our DNA is junk, an interesting defense mechnism against viruses, but also a useful defense against mutation. However, if just one base pair is off, it could result in cancer, death, retardation, or worse.

Now, this does not mean we are doomed, but the way mordin solus describes how humanitys gene pool is useful is exremely backwards. Its true that very little makes a large result, but that is becase we lack the diversity to compensate for the mutation. Remember, all it takes is a single amino acid difference in a hemoglobin molecule to result in sickle cell disease.

If we had a more diverse genetic pool, genetic disorders would be far less likely then they are now. An example is the american mountain lion, many of the males suffer from a defect in their sperm due to their genetic bottlenecking and near extinction.

You are wrong about fever and inflammation. It is an extremely effective means of defense and should not ever be belittled in such a manner. When your body heats up to around 101 degrees, viral and bacerial protiens begin to denature, not just slowing their rate of growth, but actively killing them as well (it is not perfect, if your fever gets above 103, you should see a doctor pronto!). It also has the side effect of increasing blood flow, allowing your white cells to flow to the source of the infection faster.

Your statement about the body using dextro amiono acids in cellular makeup is extremely unlikely (but I will look into it). I am reasonably sure that human RNA can even utilize Dextro-AA's, so there is no way it can be incorporated into protien synthesis. And just like our own immune system, our Levo-AA's probably cannot be utilized by their biology as well. Why? Because something like that would be removed through genetic pressures in their ancestor species... getting liver or kidney failure because you ate the wrong bug or plant is a quick way to remove yourself from the gene pool.

"Cramps" mean "Gas", its what happens to people who are lactose intolerant when they drink milk

[Zelnik]

Powgow wrote...

Lets just assume that life only popped up once in the galaxy, and that via the process of panspermia, the entire galaxy has been sowed with the same seed.

Hence, all life has DNA, all life looks kinda similar, because they all started out with DNA-system that sets limits on the scale and variability of life.

Why is all sapient life bipedal? Well, why they are BIpedal, I dont know. but they have to have atleast one set of limbs free  to be able to use tools and manifest their intelligence and eventually start the fuse of advance by finding the holy grail: FIRE!

SO, the only thing that does not fit are the stupid Hanar. because fire is impossible under water, and they would never be able to ascend to society. (or maybe the "enkindlers") did it for fun. Stupid jellyfish.

Voila, solution!

ah, the star trek approach... original 

[Zelnik]

Quitega, in the words of the venerable mordin solus, though sligtly modified...

"Talk more when you get a degree"
Preferrably one in a hard science. That means Biology, Chemistry, Physics.

Because you just really ended the conversation when you claimed that monkeys evolved into us, or from us.

We are a hominid primape. Not a monkey

Monkeys evolved from a common ancestor to us, but we have very different evolutionary paths. If you want to see a relative to man, see the chimpanzee.

When you realize that humanity is not so cool, maybe you can graduate from under your bridge.

[Zkyire]

monkeycamoran wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
/end thread

That was already mentioned way back the first page. You'd think it's worth to remind anyone, but that statement is just as dull as the arguer. Frankly, it wouldn't hurt you play along with this thread ego-stroking.

But it doesn't really matter. It's science fiction. Not science fact. It's designed for entertainment of the masses, not to be picked apart on it's factual data or lack thereof.

[Sigma Tauri]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
But it doesn't really matter. It's science fiction. Not science fact. It's designed for entertainment of the masses, not to be picked apart on it's factual data or lack thereof.

I get it. I don't care.

But, with the way Mass Effect flaunted technical details to make it sound legitimate science fiction world-building than a space opera, they're bound to make gaffes that'll be pointed out. It doesn't preclude anyone enjoying it as a derivative but entertaining game series with cheesy romantic dialogue. But, sometimes if you know what Bioware's referring to, it kinda shakes up the fantasy because it's as if betrays the writer's ignorance. This especially when Bioware is trying to depict the aspect of science fiction that goes into the realm of believability.

Sometimes, it's perfectly acceptable to have fiction deliberately involved. I can accept FTL and mass relays. Another example is Fallout where a virus suddenly makes quadruple helix mutants. That's totally deliberate because of the 50's pulp science fiction origins.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 05 avril 2011 - 06:30 .

[Lvl20DM]

I like these points - I hadn't actually read any analysis of the biological science in ME.Most critiques/discussions focus on the physics. One of the things that make these games great is that we can even have discussions about the "science of Mass Effect". Most devs don't put as much thought into the universe as Bioware does.

I like the point on Quarians - I'd been wondering this since the first game. The reaction to foreign bodies indicates and overactive immune system. Maybe that is how we should interpret the description of the Quarian problem. Not that they have no immune system, but that centuries of living in a sterile environment has made their immune system work incorrectly. I know some biologists and epidemiologists think that Humans have done the same thing to our own immune system by removing dirt, germs, and parasites from our surroundings.

The last few points have been addressed a few times on this forum. As far as a "skin in a vacuum" goes, I think the science supports that it would be disorienting, likely painful, and ultimately fatal. Accepting that, I can't think of many instances of that actually taking place in the game. The end of the Derelict Reaper mission, maybe (and then, only if you bring along some of the squadmates)? This, I believe, is not an issue with the writing, but rather art assets. The instances where squadmates were exposed to vacuum were so rare, they they simply didn't develop space suits for the companions. Maybe they intended to do so, but ran out of time or money (or energy). Still Vacuums in ME2 were very, very rare. Personally, I hope they come up with "hazard" suits for the squadmates in ME3.

[TwistedComplex]

[SavesTheDay]

brgillespie wrote...

In Arrival, Shepard watches a computer display of the resultant explosion from the Alpha Relay wipe out a star system. In the real world, light from the Sun takes 3 entire minutes to reach Mercury, which is the closest planet to the Sun. That the "supernova-like" wave of energy would wipe out a complete star system in barely 10 seconds is highly improbable. Shepard would likely have been sitting there watching that display for a long, long, long time...

I thought Shepard just updated the galaxy map to show that the system wasn't there anymore. If she just destroyed a mass relay, I don't think she needs to wait for the system to actually be completely destroyed before she can update her star charts.

[baryonic member]

Zelnik wrote..
5. You can walk outside in a vaccum with skin exposed.
This should be pretty damn obvious. If a shield breaks down due to radiation from a hot star, why isn't it breaking down from temperatures around 4 Kelvin?

I agree with everything except this point, contrary to popular belief, space isn't cold (per say), vacuum is the best insulator in the world, although you would die after c. 90 seconds or so, but not because of the "cold".

[Quintega]

to aimless gun- The reason forums like this turn into lots of posts mentioning it being fake is because the starter forgets to post in the beginning that they want a possible discussion. Not claim they know more then the author and just basically bash the makers.

Zelnik- I'm not going to talk to you anymore since you are obsessed with Ad-homims.
Also its not a bright Idea to quote som one you basically called a hack.
Which you did call mordin solus by claiming that the Science of a "Science Fiction" story was bs.
Also try not to make assumtions or did you forget the basic phrase taught about those in science?

Finaly I agree end this nonsense since it was obviously not meant to be a intelectual discussion and its author has an unhealthy Obsession with Ad-Hominims

I would suggest anyone who wants an intellegent conversation make a post in a new forum saying so in the first post.

[JustinTR]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Compelling argument. I think youve made your point. Gmod IS IRL!

[silverignika]

Some good points, OP, especially about human genetic diversity. I've read about that bottleneck from about 50,000 years ago. Made me a little confused when Mordin claimed otherwise.

Another problem with the Quarians... the hips shouldn't be that wide.

Under natural circumstances, in which there are no c-sections, only natural births, there would be selective pressure against small hips. Wide hips would result in safer natural births, and those with small hips would not be able to pass on their genes.

But seeing as the Quarian race has been adrift in space for hundreds of years with a atrophied immune system, they would probably use many more c-sections than natural births, since it's safer. Hence, there would be no selective pressure against having small hips. Small-hipped quarians would pass on their genes just as much as big-hipped quarians. Also, since their population is small and controlled, there would be little gene flow, so, QED, quarians should have small hips.

Of course, as a self-professed Tali-mancer, I find no problem in suspending belief from time to time.

[silverignika]

PetrySilva wrote...

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! THE BIOWARE TEAM WOULD STEP IN IF IT WAS FORMED BY SCIENTISTS! I DEMAND ACTION!

You DON'T get to make demands of BioWare, PetrySilva.

[JustinTR]

[Archereon]

The big problem I have with ME is that BioWare didn't even try to justify Faster Than Light Travel, and completely ignores the massive conservation of momentum violation in mass effect's principle which can only be circumvented by an even worse conservation of energy violation.

[Scimal]

Zelnik wrote...

Your arguement lacks weight scimal. First of all, most of our DNA is junk, an interesting defense mechnism against viruses, but also a useful defense against mutation. However, if just one base pair is off, it could result in cancer, death, retardation, or worse.

I believe what you meant to say was, "Most of our DNA doesn't encode  for Proteins." There's a distinct difference between being "junk" and not encoding for enzymes or structure.

Most of our DNA is taken up by transposons and repeating elements, of which we're only beginning to scratch the surface of their purposes. Only about 1.5%-2% of the standard human genome is composed of Exons - which are used to encode proteins.

Also, the most immediate defense against retroviruses is mRNA molecules, not junk DNA. Most of our "junk" DNA is there because of old retroviral activity.

Yes, point-mutations can have drastic affects - depending on the enzyme they're encoding for. In general, the more complex a creature the genome dictates, the more vulnerable it is to mutation. That doesn't mean we're genetically homogenous, it means we haven't evolved a better proofreading mechanism.

Really, though, in relation to the dialog in the game - where Mordin's pupil was trying to induce tumors and mutations - humans would be just fine. You can induce tumors in humans very, very easily - and it takes a lot to kill us assuming the tumors don't become malignant and metastatic.

Now, this does not mean we are doomed, but the way mordin solus describes how humanitys gene pool is useful is exremely backwards. Its true that very little makes a large result, but that is becase we lack the diversity to compensate for the mutation. Remember, all it takes is a single amino acid difference in a hemoglobin molecule to result in sickle cell disease.

You know we evolved sickle cell anemia, right? It's a derived trait. Sickle cell developed in response to Malaria, as sickle cell sufferers are significantly less likely to contract malaria than regular hemoglobin cells. Yes, it's not entirely beneficial, but few mutations are.

Most mutations that severely affect the ability of a human to survive are more than point mutations, though. Point mutations are corrected on a monthly basis in every human on the planet.

It's deletions, insertions, and loss of regulation of metabolic pathways that pose greater threats. At least point mutations keep the same reading frame.

If we had a more diverse genetic pool, genetic disorders would be far less likely then they are now. An example is the american mountain lion, many of the males suffer from a defect in their sperm due to their genetic bottlenecking and near extinction.

I think you have a very squeamish basis of what diversity entails. Genetic diversity does not protect against mutations or genetic disorders (if anything, an increase in genetic diversity would lead to greater opportunity for genetic disorders to develop via mutations - genetically shallow species have very defined and predictable disorders, like dogs).

Genetic diversity protects against bottlenecking events. The last severe bottlenecking event was Mitochondrial Eve some 50,000-60,000 years ago. Over the course of history, a few more have occurred to some extent. The recession of glaciers, the Black Plauge, and HIV had a very strong potential to be another if medical science hadn't been what it was in the 1980's.

Humans have survived all of them due to genetic diversity and geographic distance. While it's true that there are tribes in Africa who are more diverse between their members than I (being of Nordic stock) am with Polynesians, it doesn't mean we're genetically shallow.

If we were, a lot of things would've wiped us out by now.

You are wrong about fever and inflammation. It is an extremely effective means of defense and should not ever be belittled in such a manner.

I didn't say it was an ineffective defense. I said it was a basic response. Only when an immune system is completely devastated will fevers cease to be a reaction to diseases. However, it doesn't take a lot of an immune system to induce a fever - basically it just has to be a minimally functioning one, as far as I'm aware.

When your body heats up to around 101 degrees, viral and bacerial protiens begin to denature, not just slowing their rate of growth, but actively killing them as well (it is not perfect, if your fever gets above 103, you should see a doctor pronto!). It also has the side effect of increasing blood flow, allowing your white cells to flow to the source of the infection faster.

Err... yes, I said that. Thanks for repeating me. I thought I said that increasing the body temperature causes enzymatic activity to decrease in bacteria. This is due to the denaturing of the enzymes. 101F doesn't usually kill viruses or bacteria, though.

Your statement about the body using dextro amiono acids in cellular makeup is extremely unlikely (but I will look into it). I am reasonably sure that human RNA can even utilize Dextro-AA's, so there is no way it can be incorporated into protien synthesis.

There isn't that I'm currently aware of, but it would be the biggest threat should there be a significant amount in the environment.

The messenger-RNA wouldn't necessarily have to be affected. It could be a mutated ribosomal subunit that simply didn't care whether or not D- or L- was used to construct the protein. Incorporation into DNA could pose a significant threat, though, as mutations could occur very quickly if your cell somehow started using D-Glutamine or D-Aspartate to construct nucleotides.

And just like our own immune system, our Levo-AA's probably cannot be utilized by their biology as well. Why? Because something like that would be removed through genetic pressures in their ancestor species... getting liver or kidney failure because you ate the wrong bug or plant is a quick way to remove yourself from the gene pool.

Or, in the case of Quarians, a fever and cramps. ;-)

[DashRunner92]

I'm in Bio 2200 and this entire thread basically just covered the chapter I finished today lol