198 réponses à ce sujet

[aimlessgun]

Now we're getting somewhere!

[Leeroi]

Zelnik wrote...

1. Humanity has great genetic diversity.
This is not only false, but grossly false.  Of all of the primapes on the planet, we are the LEAST genetically diverse. We are more closely related to a member of the opposite gender on the other side of the planet, then a chimpanzee is related to it's sibling.  Humanity suffered a massive genetic bottleneck some 50,000 years ago (probably due to Mt. Toba exploding), and the results are extremely clear today. The huge amounts of cancers and genetic disorders found in humanity are the best example of this. 

I guess you missed the point where Mordin was speaking about civilized species, capable of thought processes. So while we aren't the most diverse genetically among earth species, you cannot claim that in relation to the Alien species Bioware has introduced. So they have every right to say it (and our science can't say a thing about it because we can't compare what we don't know).

2. A weak Immune system involves fevers, allergic reactions, etc.
This assumption is actually a bit backwards.  If an organism has a STRONG immune system (or hyperactive immune system), the above examples occur.  A WEAK immune system would have no reaction at all to a foreign pathogen, and the only sign of illness would probably be death, or necrosis.  All of the Quarian examples of "weak immune system" make any medical professional very confused (I know, I am one, and so is my father).  The described reactions show more of a hyperactive allergic response.

Again, this is true in humans. That's why you sometimes don't notice overwhelming sepsis in immunocompromised patients until it's too late - the immune system is a great tool of assessing the body's response to foreign pathogens. And with a weak immune system you should really be getting all the symptoms of AIDS. However, we know Quarians have advanced technology implanted in their suits, so all the immunoboosters they're receiving (remember Kal-Reegar saying how he "swims" in antibiotics etc.) could actually make your body respond as if it were acute anaphylaxis. Again, judging by our science you're right - but Bioware can easily defend their writing there,

4. Dextro-Amino acids could KILL YOU!!!!
Similar to 3, but any immunologist would tell you that this is extremely unlikely. When protiens hit our gut, they are broken down into their individual amino acids (this is assuming our proteases work on dextro-amino-acids).  amino acids are TERRIBLE antigens, since their molecular weight is so small.  Odds are they would not even be absorbed by the intestinal mucosa. 
IF they were NOT broken down by the proteases, the HCL would denature the protien chains, though it would be more likely that these could yeild an immune response (though this is also unlikely, since they probably won't pass through the intestinal mucosa either.

Uhm, amino-acids are terrible antigens. Ok I'll agree with that. And amino acids get broken down by proteases, that's a known fact. But, how many dextro AAs do you know of? Are they the same as what the aliens have? Do the dextro AAs yield toxic by-products upon breakdown? Do they get actively absorbed by the intestine? Can they be metabolised by our liver or are they deposited somewhere to cause a specific organ failure? There's lots of stuff we don't actually know, and Bioware can make up a number of explanations regarding those questions. As for us, we only have our University-implanted knowledge to work with, which doesn't leave lots of room for interpretation.

So, in essence, you're right - with the science we have, we can't fully explain ME franchise at the moment. But science isn't static and is constantly changing, progressing and evolving. Theories get disproven and new ones appear pretty quickly. So what we know isn't necessarily true. Keep an open mind and you'll definitely enjoy the games more

P.S. Coming from a medical professional.

[XyleJKH]

Leeroi wrote...

Zelnik wrote...

1. Humanity has great genetic diversity.
Thia is not only false, but grossly false.  Of all of the primapes on the planet, we are the LEAST genetically diverse. We are more closely related to a member of threw opposite gender on the other side of the planet, then a chimpanzee is related to it's sibling.  Humanity suffered a massive genetic bottleneck some 50,000 years ago (probably due to Mt. Toba exploding), and the results are extremely clear today. The huge amounts of cancers and genetic disorders found in humanity are the best example of this. 

I guess you missed the point where Mordin was speaking about civilized species, capable of thought processes. So while we aren't the most diverse genetically among earth species, you cannot claim that in relation to the Alien species Bioware has introduced. So they have every right to say it (and our science can't say a thing about it because we can't compare what we don't know).

2. A weak Immune system involves fevers, allergic reactions, etc.
This assumption is actually a bit backwards.  If an organism has a STRONG immune system (or hyperactive immune system), the above examples occur.  A WEAK immune system would have no reaction at all to a foreign pathogen, and the only sign of illness would probably be death, or necrosis.  All of the Quarian examples of "weak immune system" make any medical professional very confused (I know, I am one, and so is my father).  The described reactions show more of a hyperactive allergic response.

Again, this is true in humans. That's why you sometimes don't notice overwhelming sepsis in immunocompromised patients until it's too late - the immune system is a great tool of assessing the body's response to foreign pathogens. And with a weak immune system you should really be getting all the symptoms of AIDS. However, we know Quarians have advanced technology implanted in their suits, so all the immunoboosters they're receiving (remember Kal-Reegar saying how he "swims" in antibiotics etc.) could actually make your body respond as if it were acute anaphylaxis. Again, judging by our science you're right - but Bioware can easily defend their writing there,

4. Dextro-Amino acids could KILL YOU!!!!
Similar to 3, but any immunologist would tell you that this is extremely unlikely. When protiens hit our gut, they are broken down into their individual amino acids (this is assuming our proteases work on dextro-amino-acids).  amino acids are TERRIBLE antigens, since their molecular weight is so small.  Odds are they would not even be absorbed by the intestinal mucosa. 
IF they were NOT broken down by the proteases, the HCL would denature the protien chains, though it would be more likely that these could yeild an immune response (though this is also unlikely, since they probably won't pass through the intestinal mucosa either.

Uhm, amino-acids are terrible antigens. Ok I'll agree with that. And amino acids get broken down by proteases, that's a known fact. But, how many dextro AAs do you know of? Are they the same as what the aliens have? Do the dextro AAs yield toxic by-products upon breakdown? Do they get actively absorbed by the intestine? Can they be metabolised by our liver or are they deposited somewhere to cause a specific organ failure? There's lots of stuff we don't actually know, and Bioware can make up a number of explanations regarding those questions. As for us, we only have our University-implanted knowledge to work with, which doesn't leave lots of room for interpretation.

So, in essence, you're right - with the science we have, we can't fully explain ME franchise at the moment. But science isn't static and is constantly changing, progressing and evolving. Theories get disproven and new ones appear pretty quickly. So what we know isn't necessarily true. Keep an open mind and you'll definitely enjoy the games more

P.S. Coming from a medical professional.

YEAH!!!!!!
GO YOU

[The Fan]

Oh sad, ITS SCIENCE FICTION! They are allowed to take a few liberties in the science. Thats why its call science FICTION.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Fan wrote...

Oh sad, ITS SCIENCE FICTION! They are allowed to take a few liberties in the science. Thats why its call science FICTION.

You are confusing it with fantasy. Note the word "science". The idea is that it should have some credibility. Its story elements should at least be possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature.

[Freeride600]

I can has popcorn?

[aimlessgun]

Leeroi wrote...

Zelnik wrote...

1. Humanity has great genetic diversity.
This is not only false, but grossly false.  Of all of the primapes on the planet, we are the LEAST genetically diverse. We are more closely related to a member of the opposite gender on the other side of the planet, then a chimpanzee is related to it's sibling.  Humanity suffered a massive genetic bottleneck some 50,000 years ago (probably due to Mt. Toba exploding), and the results are extremely clear today. The huge amounts of cancers and genetic disorders found in humanity are the best example of this. 

I guess you missed the point where Mordin was speaking about civilized species, capable of thought processes. So while we aren't the most diverse genetically among earth species, you cannot claim that in relation to the Alien species Bioware has introduced. So they have every right to say it (and our science can't say a thing about it because we can't compare what we don't know).

2. A weak Immune system involves fevers, allergic reactions, etc.
This assumption is actually a bit backwards.  If an organism has a STRONG immune system (or hyperactive immune system), the above examples occur.  A WEAK immune system would have no reaction at all to a foreign pathogen, and the only sign of illness would probably be death, or necrosis.  All of the Quarian examples of "weak immune system" make any medical professional very confused (I know, I am one, and so is my father).  The described reactions show more of a hyperactive allergic response.

Again, this is true in humans. That's why you sometimes don't notice overwhelming sepsis in immunocompromised patients until it's too late - the immune system is a great tool of assessing the body's response to foreign pathogens. And with a weak immune system you should really be getting all the symptoms of AIDS. However, we know Quarians have advanced technology implanted in their suits, so all the immunoboosters they're receiving (remember Kal-Reegar saying how he "swims" in antibiotics etc.) could actually make your body respond as if it were acute anaphylaxis. Again, judging by our science you're right - but Bioware can easily defend their writing there,

4. Dextro-Amino acids could KILL YOU!!!!
Similar to 3, but any immunologist would tell you that this is extremely unlikely. When protiens hit our gut, they are broken down into their individual amino acids (this is assuming our proteases work on dextro-amino-acids).  amino acids are TERRIBLE antigens, since their molecular weight is so small.  Odds are they would not even be absorbed by the intestinal mucosa. 
IF they were NOT broken down by the proteases, the HCL would denature the protien chains, though it would be more likely that these could yeild an immune response (though this is also unlikely, since they probably won't pass through the intestinal mucosa either.

Uhm, amino-acids are terrible antigens. Ok I'll agree with that. And amino acids get broken down by proteases, that's a known fact. But, how many dextro AAs do you know of? Are they the same as what the aliens have? Do the dextro AAs yield toxic by-products upon breakdown? Do they get actively absorbed by the intestine? Can they be metabolised by our liver or are they deposited somewhere to cause a specific organ failure? There's lots of stuff we don't actually know, and Bioware can make up a number of explanations regarding those questions. As for us, we only have our University-implanted knowledge to work with, which doesn't leave lots of room for interpretation.

So, in essence, you're right - with the science we have, we can't fully explain ME franchise at the moment. But science isn't static and is constantly changing, progressing and evolving. Theories get disproven and new ones appear pretty quickly. So what we know isn't necessarily true. Keep an open mind and you'll definitely enjoy the games more

P.S. Coming from a medical professional.

Thanks for the really well thought out post. I've been convinced.

[CrypticZer0]

Really, why does any of this matter? lol.

I highly doubt BioWare is looking to make scientific breakthroughs from complete accuracy about human biology or anything related, let alone care too much about "massive scientific mistakes".  Mass Effect is a video game, which most are pretty aware of that, and like someone said a long time ago in this thread, Mass Effect does a much better job at somewhat representing realism as compared to other sci-fi genre games.

I do admit though that I do feel smarter now that I read some of the posts on this thread.  Anything Science related was not my strong suit back in high school and certainly wasn't a strong suit in my general classes in college.

[Euno17]

My question to the OP is . . . . how the hell did you even notice this in the games? 

And well ......I have another question for you actually -  why do you even care? 

[Scimal]

Euno17 wrote...

My question to the OP is . . . . how the hell did you even notice this in the games? 

And well ......I have another question for you actually -  why do you even care?

Some of us find Science fun.

Making up explanations about how things work in their fictional world adds to the ME universe for us, rather than taking anything away.

When I think of the Asari as highly evolved symbionts who exchange pleasure for DNA templates, it makes things much more interesting than saying, "They're blue fanboy girls with squidheads."

[Nathan Redgrave]

Zelnik wrote...

6. Aliens look just like us.
Seriously.. must everything in science fiction have four limbs, two eyes, one nose, boobs, and...oooo blue skin..

Asari aside, Revelation actually makes a mention of this, and one of the theories (the one Anderson thinks most likely) is that the biped thing has some kind of evolutionary advantage, thus making it crop up in multiple species on different worlds. I found the representation of alien species mostly realistic, actually, as between Turians, Salarians, Krogans, Volus, and Batarians, humanoids are sufficiently "alien," with a small helping of completely "out there" species (such as the Hanar and the Elchor) to round things out.

I could never wrap my head around the Asari. Their human-female look obviously works well with their cross-species mating thing, but then you have to wonder how they would have developed such a close resemblance to humanity, a species they encountered only recently. I can only conclude that, like the things in that Avatar movie, they are in fact not aliens, but sparkly blue elves. Sparkly blue bisexual elves, that is, with highly exotic ass.

The Asari are thus, ironically, the only race in the series I would consider a mind****. (See what I did there?)

But the other races are just fine, in my book.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Zelnik]

Because bioware needed to make its first interspecies romance something vaguely human, and that wasn't enough to stem the sh*tstorm from faux news.

How do I notice this stuff? My best explanation is a quote from "Symphony Of Science" which is
"When you are scientifically literate, the world looks very different"

I strongly reccomend a hard science degree for anyone. It makes the world a beautiful and awe inspiring place.. more so then usual.

[Ieldra]

Why do we care?

Because science is fascinating and important for humanity's survival - and unnecessarily using false facts may give people wrong information about real-world science.

Everyone knows any explanation of how eezo works will very likely be scientific bullsh*t in the end, because our physics has no way to account for it. But it is needed for the game world to function as it is and its presence actually results in an interesting "what if" scenario. Also it is grounded in an interesting global concept, namely the name-giving "mass effect". So I do not only do not mind its presence, I find it enriches the game world.

Infusing wrong facts in a real-world compatible science like biology is a totally different matter, especially if with a little effort and a minimum of research, it could have been avoided. Artistic license is all good and well, but in a SF story, I only excuse scientific inaccuracies if they can't be avoided for the effect the writers wanted to achieve. Laziness or ignorance is no excuse.

Or more simply: if you want to wriggle around real-world scientific constraints, at least know what you're talking about.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Zelnik wrote...

Because bioware needed to make its first interspecies romance something vaguely human, and that wasn't enough to stem the sh*tstorm from faux news.

Really, I could not have figured that out on my own.

Although the ironic thing is that the publicity from the "faux news" crapstorm actually did more to help ME's success than hinder it.

[Ieldra]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Zelnik wrote...

6. Aliens look just like us.
Seriously.. must everything in science fiction have four limbs, two eyes, one nose, boobs, and...oooo blue skin..

Asari aside, Revelation actually makes a mention of this, and one of the theories (the one Anderson thinks most likely) is that the biped thing has some kind of evolutionary advantage, thus making it crop up in multiple species on different worlds. I found the representation of alien species mostly realistic, actually, as between Turians, Salarians, Krogans, Volus, and Batarians, humanoids are sufficiently "alien," with a small helping of completely "out there" species (such as the Hanar and the Elchor) to round things out.

I could never wrap my head around the Asari. Their human-female look obviously works well with their cross-species mating thing, but then you have to wonder how they would have developed such a close resemblance to humanity, a species they encountered only recently. I can only conclude that, like the things in that Avatar movie, they are in fact not aliens, but sparkly blue elves. Sparkly blue bisexual elves, that is, with highly exotic ass.

The Asari are thus, ironically, the only race in the series I would consider a mind****. (See what I did there?)

But the other races are just fine, in my book.

I feel exactly the same. The reasoning that having four limbs and walking upright, with a head and sensory organs located at the top and sensory organs close to the brain, may be an evolutionary "standard template" for species likely to develop technological civilizations is a good one. It might even be true in the real world.

The asari, however, are - yes - a mindf*ck (LOL). Without them the ME universe would be 500% more believable.

[aimlessgun]

Wasn't there some indication in ME2 that the Asari were telepathically manipulating every species to make them seem attractive? The bachelor party conversation on Illium?

[Ieldra]

aimlessgun wrote...
Wasn't there some indication in ME2 that the Asari were telepathically manipulating every species to make them seem attractive? The bachelor party conversation on Illium?

I actually posted that idea on the old forum several months before ME2 came out. It was meant to be sarcastic, I wanted to illustrate the implausibility of the species concept. The bachelor party is funny, but telepathy wouldn't work - it cannot account for asari looking attractive through a video communication over several light years.

[Morducai]

Zelnik wrote...

These are mostly focused on biology, since that is my feild of study, but some of these make me think the writers really did not even consider checking their sources.

1. Humanity has great genetic diversity.
This is not only false, but grossly false.  Of all of the primapes on the planet, we are the LEAST genetically diverse. We are more closely related to a member of the opposite gender on the other side of the planet, then a chimpanzee is related to it's sibling.  Humanity suffered a massive genetic bottleneck some 50,000 years ago (probably due to Mt. Toba exploding), and the results are extremely clear today. The huge amounts of cancers and genetic disorders found in humanity are the best example of this. 

2. A weak Immune system involves fevers, allergic reactions, etc.
This assumption is actually a bit backwards.  If an organism has a STRONG immune system (or hyperactive immune system), the above examples occur.  A WEAK immune system would have no reaction at all to a foreign pathogen, and the only sign of illness would probably be death, or necrosis.  All of the Quarian examples of "weak immune system" make any medical professional very confused (I know, I am one, and so is my father).  The described reactions show more of a hyperactive allergic response.

3. Eating Dexter compounds is a BAD THING!
Splenda would like a word with you.  Yes, it's true that you can develop a response against it, but allrgies to Dextrose are rare, but its MUCH more common for it to just pass through your system.  I understand the hypersensitivity for the quarians, but Turians would probably just have the runs for a while.

4. Dextro-Amino acids could KILL YOU!!!!
Similar to 3, but any immunologist would tell you that this is extremely unlikely. When protiens hit our gut, they are broken down into their individual amino acids (this is assuming our proteases work on dextro-amino-acids).  amino acids are TERRIBLE antigens, since their molecular weight is so small.  Odds are they would not even be absorbed by the intestinal mucosa. 
IF they were NOT broken down by the proteases, the HCL would denature the protien chains, though it would be more likely that these could yeild an immune response (though this is also unlikely, since they probably won't pass through the intestinal mucosa either.

5. You can walk outside in a vaccum with skin exposed.
This should be pretty damn obvious. If a shield breaks down due to radiation from a hot star, why isn't it breaking down from temperatures around 4 Kelvin? 

6. Aliens look just like us.
Seriously.. must everything in science fiction have four limbs, two eyes, one nose, boobs, and...oooo blue skin..

Concerning your #1. That's what I thought when Mordin said that. I guess BioWare are aware of it seeing how the founders are doctors but I think they needed to do that to give that mission more weight. 

[Nathan Redgrave]

That the asari might possess the biotic equivalent of pharemones wouldn't be that far-fetched, compared to everything else we know about them, but they still have perfectly sexy human-female figures, so it still makes no real sense.

And I'm fine with that, personally. Totally willing to suspend disbelief and all that. I just like to be honest about suspending my disbelief, rather than making excuses for it.

[Whatever42]

Ever watch shows on the "science" of Star Trek or Stargate or Star Wars? To sum those shows up: the science on those shows are only very loosely based on scientific fact as we understand it today. That's why we commonly refer to it as Space Opera; it's really fantasy in space.

In addition to your points (which have been partially answered above by people who actually understand the science - basically, not me), what the heck are these magic element zero rocks that allow us to have magic powers? And quantum entanglement cannot be used for FTL communication. And the vast majority of systems in our galaxy are exposed to much higher radiation than ours - because ours is above the galactic plane. How could these systems even evolve life, much less have human walking around on planets there - the radiation there would fry us.

[BlackAdder117]

aimlessgun wrote...

BlackAdder117 wrote...
This is Science- _FICTION_ after all; so the story writers and developers have free reign in my opinion.

Here is my opposing opinion, if you want it, (copied from earlier in the thread)


Just because you have 1 impossible thing does not mean you can do whatever the hell you want. Realism is not all or nothing. The more unreal things you add, the less immersive your universe becomes. You have to balance Awesome Cool Stuff with Realism, so you have a mix of both.

If you mix Realism with Awesome Cool Stuff, people are likely to just accept the few unrealistic things. Eezo is a brilliant core conceit because with only 1 unrealistic premise they can cover a lot of Awesome Cool Stuff.

The more the balance tips towards complete realism, the more 'boring' scifi can become. The more it tilts
towards "whatever looks cool", the less immersive it is.

Limits are good for design. They force you to really take the time to make something good, and to show creativity within that framework. Anyone who has worked in a design profession can tell you that.

Correction for me there mate. I should have made myself clearer, but yeah I was trying to say something along those lines in terms of realism.

I mean, if it didn't any realistic, believable elements in the story like for example "Humans are descended from the Reapers" or "Earth was a Reaper war factory" or somthing else, then it wouldn't make much sense.

So, thanks for correction buddy!

[Zelnik]

Whatever, its called a Macguffin, or 'Unobtainium'. It is a trope commonly used to mask a huge hole in the plot. For a long time, nuclear power was used in the same manner as eezo is in the game.

It is not without some basis in physics, since dark energy does have an effect on the mass of objects... however it is stil troped because there is no way for us to observe dark energy to see what it actually is... only its effect on nearby gravitational bodies.

In effect, eezo is the same stuff as dilithium crystals, antimatter cores, tzo crystals (melnorme forever!), cold fusion(for now), and any other science fiction energy source.

[Rekkampum]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The Fan wrote...

Oh sad, ITS SCIENCE FICTION! They are allowed to take a few liberties in the science. Thats why its call science FICTION.

You are confusing it with fantasy. Note the word "science". The idea is that it should have some credibility. Its story elements should at least be possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature.

False, actually. There are plenty of "science" fiction works that have very little basis in actual scientific knowledge, usually revolving around some innovation or speculative technology that's a centerpiece for the story. Inception, for instance, is a science fiction film and it takes its own liberties, as do the Terminator films and Avatar, to name a couple. 

[lltoon]

Bioware was founded by 3 medical doctors, which apparently had no knowledge of human genetic diversity or immunology.

[Rekkampum]

lltoon wrote...

Bioware was founded by 3 medical doctors, which apparently had no knowledge of human genetic diversity or immunology.

Why haven't you guys realized that when Mordin makes that statement, he is talking in comparison of humans to the other known alien races, not to all species life in general?

Seriously though, I would love to see how they respond to some of the folks up here.