61 réponses à ce sujet

[nubbers666]

would not hold your breath on a nw3 still a long ways away i bet if at all

[SuperFly_2000]

The Fred wrote...
It's true, a lot of people have played very little singleplayer NWN(2),

Just to clarify here, yes, there was a lot of people playing MP only, including myself....however the huge bulk of players that bought the game was the "buy-play through-shelf"-audience which not surprisingly also was what both games where primarily aimed at. NWN2 even more than NWN1.

I even read reviews in magazines for NWN2 where the OC was the only thing they had played and commented on. A tragic truth when quite a big amount was playing MP in NWN1 anyway...

The Fred wrote...
......That's what makes it great - it can suit a massive range of playstyles and preferences.

An MMO can't do that. As mentioned, a lot of people (myself included a lot of the time) prefer the instanced nature of games like Guild Wars, so you don't have to deal with griefers and random people you don't know messing you about.

NWN(2) can run much friendlier (smaller, better managed etc) persistant worlds, it can run plain multiplayer (not always very well, admittedly, but a lot of games have much more limited functionality in MP than NWN(2) does) or it can run singleplayer, and it has one of the most advanced awesome toolsets I've ever seen released with game.

I'm not saying Neverwinter will be bad, or even that it'll be "just another MMO". It might be a very good MMO. However, it'll be an MMO, and I don't believe an MMO can ever do this series justice. Not because this is an SP game or because SP games are superior to MMOs, just because it's capable of so much more.

I can heed the SP:players fears here.

To some extent you are right. An MP adventure will never have the heavy-impact storyline that a SP adventure could have. Yet again in MP you have a lot of other things and question is if characters could be a LOT more developed in a MP game.

Just log in to one of the many RP servers in NWN and you can find a lot story-content really. Although on some servers the RP is skewed to fit the players and admins of the server it is not excluded.

Furthermore....for me personally I am looking for something more "dungeon-crawling" like. I have played on many servers that had both roleplaying but also plenty of good action. Well...it is not really "action" in that sense...cause as we all know..battles in NWN are fairly tactical...so that's why I am still playing NWN1 instead of buttonmashing in D&DO for example....

Then Neverwinter 2011 will to some extent be "instanced". Throw in some other common ways of excluding irritating players/people of contacting you in-game....and voila....you have a game with both story, co-op and meeting new people.

To summarize....for thoose who want SP story games there are really a heap of them. Bioware has exclusively been releasing such the last 10 years or so. After NWN they totally stopped making multiplayer (yes I know they are making SWtOR now but it is way to late now and besides that is whole new Bioware...which is not even really "Bioware" anymore).

I know I am hoping for too much from a company (cryptic) well known for releasing plain and simple mainstream MMO's but I can at least hope.

And about MMO's always being MMO's....no ....you are wrong....even if Neverwinter 2011 fails in that aspect I promise you there will eventually be a game that wont.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 26 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[MasterChanger]

Personally, I strongly believe that an MMO--even a mini instanced super-well-done MMO--cannot be a successor to NWN 1&2 even for the crowd that plays mostly on PWs. Yes, the play-style may have some similarities. But what I believe to be the most important aspect of the series--the ability for the community to tell new stories--will be largely missing.

For those who play only on action PWs that are purely hack-and-slash, I suppose it's possible that Neverwinter 2011 will meet their needs. Nevertheless, any game that is only one thing (no matter how well-done that thing is) will ultimately fall short.

[SuperFly_2000]

You made some good points there I think.

However I strongly believe that such a game CAN be a successor to NWN 1&2 if done right.

You do know that they will be including a "toolset" right?

So that pretty much opens up for you (under certain contraints) to make your own "world" inside this much bigger world.


The ability to make your absolutely private PW's in NWN is both its strength and its weakness. The PW community is now spread out over a vast amount of servers and interaction in between them is close to non-existing.

I like to think of the new game as a huge PW whoose admins are proffesionals working in a large team to bring you this world. I think it really can be good.

I think you can have more than just hack'n slash...although this really means the developers need to bring their brains together. Roleplay can not be forced...but it can be facilitated. As well as tactical considerations in a combat instead of POV button mashing.

On the other hand many roleplay PW's (in NWN) have totally turned away from everything that involves killing monsters it feels. Some are almost ridiculus in their aspirations to make some kind of drama controlled world....so that part I'd gladly leave behind...


Now, understand me right. It is not that I don't have any fears at all. I am reading and looking more and more at Star Trek Online and even though the game looks fairly good I think they have a long road to walk to release something worthy in NWN terms.

I think they have a graphics engine more or less. They "only" need to make a new HUD, new camera, new combat system and of course "re-skin" the game to be a fantasy game instead. Theese tasks are not very trivial at all and will probably take a lot of time.

One of my fears is that they'll just go for the "re-skin" method which alone is not nearly enough.

Another fear that arises when reading about how they are handling the further development is their inclination to do "what the community wants". It is not wrong to take in feedback from the players. This is naturally a very important part of game making. However...players in general or the mainstream bulk of them should not dictate how the game should look or we will get "just another MMO" which at least some on theese boards don't want....

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 27 avril 2011 - 11:28 .

[The Fred]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
However I strongly believe that such a game CAN be a successor to NWN 1&2 if done right.

I think it probably could... in theory. However, doing it right would be a lot easier said than done.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
You do know that they will be including a "toolset" right?

I will wait and see with interest what "toolset" they include, but I'm dubious. Look at it this way - if you were making an MMO, how much power to change the world would you give to players?

In NWN, builders have carte blanche to do whatever they want, because people who don't like it don't have to play it. If, in an MMO, I can give super-overpowered items, I could A) give myself them and make a mod which even people who don't want to play it feel they have to, because otherwise everyone else will have the super-overpowered items which they won't have. Now, OK, you'd be stupid to allow such freedom over loot, but then that's already a limitation on builders which we don't have in NWN.

Basically there are a lot of difficult considerations to be taken into account, and with the best will in the world, I'm not sure it will be done right - and that's even supposing they try, rather than throwing together something half-hashed so they can mention it in interviews and previews and things.

Modifié par The Fred, 27 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Superfly, didn't you say the same about dragon age?

I've seen folks continually state the same thing, year after year, and yes WoW, Dragon Age, Age of Conan, and i am sure that new MMO will cause the player count to drop. But those players will come back. If Blizzard and Bioware cannot drive a nail in the coffin of NWN1/NWN2, how does Atari even have a chance.

The MMO is being done by Atari which says more about this than anything else. They don't even have the folks who gave us baldurs gate or planescape involved anymore, instead they have the guys who gave us star trek online. Why would how they market and develop it be any better than any other MMO they've done before, or have it be less buggy than anything else they've rushed to releas. The pre-game hype is not even half as good as what dragon age had, and they really are not even targeting NWN players, their goals as usual are to make a mass market game which appeals to all those people playing WoW exactly like Hasbro changed 4th edition to cater to the same people.

I just see this as history repeating itself. And i guess some people beleive each new game is going to be the "perfect game", i just don't see how you can feel that way when game after game says the same thing and yet the game always falls short. This is not different than the world ending on may 21st, or is it in 2012, or didn't it already end.

If you want the perfect game, well you are not going to get it from Atari. It's going to come from a developer we never heard of, or it's going to come from some geeks developing stuff in their spare time -- ( and probably some of the same geeks which happened to be active deving for nwn1 or nwn2 like peachykeen and skywing )

[MachinSin]

   Hi to all,

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Superfly, didn't you say the same about dragon age?

   That's the exact point. This is like "Groundhog day" film,

   MachinSin

[SuperFly_2000]

What did I say about DA?


Edit: Ahh ok, I think I get it.

No, I might have had hopes that DA would add MP...but as long as they didn't do that I would always be disinterested in the game and I think I was pretty clear in that.

The only thing I knew is that the game WAS being developed with MP in mind from starters but it was left out because it was not thought to be profitable....and also it was not implemented in any releases after that (so far) as sticking to the "buy-play-shelf" audience felt safer...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 28 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[The Fred]

Yeah, that was short-sighted. I don't really play MP or PWs myself, but I remember reading a survey or something which said that social interactions (along with price) was one of the two biggest factors in selling games, so having MP should have been desirable.

[Arvirago]

It was hard enough to adapt NWN2 to our Persistent World (which is not D&D based), but being able to have custom classes, feats and races made it possible.
In a MMO that won't be possible, so if that is what Neverwinter will be, the community which I represent has nothing to do with that game. We will wait for another successor.

[SuperFly_2000]

I don't see why some people must discard the whole idea of the game.

As I said...think of it as a big PW where the team of admins is a proffesional company and specialists on this exact thing.

Now sure...you can't create "whatever"....but then....do you need to? There will be plenty of classes and races eventually.

I don't see why you instantly need to make something completely different....but yes....if your need is only that....then its best to stick NWN1/2 probably....but for us others that think that the general idea of D&D is ok I guess we could live with it....

[MokahTGS]

 I'm really not sure why people don't see what Cryptic will give us with this "toolset".
They have already developed a "toolset" for the City of Heroes game.  If you don't know what that is, then look it up.

Here's a couple points:

• Atari is not making this game.  Let's be clear.  Atari is funding development.  They are writing a big check to Cryptic to MAKE the game.
• Cryptic is making the game.  Neverwinter is being developed by the people who created City of Heroes, Star Trek Online and Champions Online.  Judge for yourself on that track record...
• Any toolset that Cryptic gives the player will be completely limited to the MMO model.  So what does that mean...
• MMO's can't allow custom classes, races, spells, rules of any kind.
• An MMO toolset must limit the amount of submissions or their servers would be flooded with content, and most of it would be barely passable at best.
• An MMO Toolset can only allow the creation of instanced adventures in stock locations, limited the creative process.

If you, as a gamer, are looking for MMO gameplay and would like to build small, limited adventures with a paired down "toolset" then NWO is for you.  

Quite honestly, if NWO offers a decent show of any of these, I may try it, as I play Champions Online currently, even under a subscription plan.  I do not hold any expectations that NWO is a successor to NWN 1 or 2.  It is a different game completely with a similar name.  That is all.  To believe otherwise is foolish at best.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 03 mai 2011 - 04:58 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Atari owns cryptic, there is no check since they are technically not separate companies, cryptic is just a division of atari. This is similar to how bioware is part of EA. So the new games is both being made and published by Atari. I am pretty sure Cryptic was purchased for the sole purpose of making NWO.

I agree with Mokah, to pretend a MMO is not a MMO, well that is similar to pretending that a SP game like dragon age is going to have a DM client. Its a new animal but it's going to be not that much different from what has worked before, and it is at best going to be very limited what things we can add or modify to the game. City of Heroes is probably a good reference, as well as star trek, both of which have good things about them, as well as flaws. I am pretty sure under the hood it's the same engine, but the interfaces, areas, eye candy are likely breathtakingly well done since they don't have to put much energy into the engine, all of it can go into how it looks and the story.

[Spellfizzle]

Actually the simple facts of "Neverwinter" are this. **please put your children to bed and don't turn off the lights cause its pretty scary** Neverwinter for starters is using 4th edition, or dumbed down version. The game will be released with only 4 base classes as of this time, yup your basic fighter, wizard, Rogue and Cleric. Not to bad....but it only gets worse. Its not an MMORPG but its "Co-op" which might be fine for some people but thats not exactly PW material at all. Toolset? hehe well they provide one, but get this, the content you make will go into THERE world as an instance (WoW dungeons anyone?) and thats dependent on the Co-Op shard your on. DMing? Thats out the door, no more DM's to run your little piece of heaven on a bun. If any of these things doesn't seem to be drinking glass chased with a shot of whiskey then guess who is developing this little bundle of joy? Yup its everyones favorite MMO developers Cryptic or A.K.A Craptic, yes the dumb arses that brought you the dumpster diving MMO's like Champions Online and Strar Trek Online. Keep your copy of nwn2 if you purchase "Neverwinter" we will still be here!

[SuperFly_2000]

MokahTGS wrote...
I'm really not sure why people don't see what Cryptic will give us with this "toolset".
They have already developed a "toolset" for the City of Heroes game. 

Actually they have released a "toolset" for their later game, Star Trek Online..so it is probably better to look into that. It is called "foundry".

MokahTGS wrote...
Cryptic is making the game.  Neverwinter is being developed by the people who created City of Heroes, Star Trek Online and Champions Online.  Judge for yourself on that track record... 

Yes and yes again. We are worried. For some reason their games are popular but I don't want more childish shoot-em-up-RPG's like that.

MokahTGS wrote...
Any toolset that Cryptic gives the player will be completely limited to the MMO model. So what does that mean?  - MMO's can't allow custom classes, races, spells, rules of any kind.
- An MMO toolset must limit the amount of submissions or their servers would be flooded with content, and most of it would be barely passable at best.
-An MMO Toolset can only allow the creation of instanced adventures in stock locations, limited the creative process.If you, as a gamer, are looking for MMO gameplay and would like to build small, limited adventures with a paired down "toolset" then NWO is for you. 

I don't see a problem here. For all of us to be playing and working together there will naturally have to be some kind of restraints-

MokahTGS wrote...
I play Champions Online currently,

Why are you playing that? You said that you don't like it? ...just wondering...

[Shallina]

DAO will have a MP component and and will be PW able beceause of fantastic modder.

All that is made by those very evil poeple at OBSIDIAN will die under BIOWARE games and Criptic games !!!


The truth is that the NWN3 in devellopement isn't a competitor for NWN2/NWN1 at the moment if it remain a MMO.

NWN3 might end to be really cool, but it's not a competitor, wich mean it's not going to affect NWN2/1 poeple will still continue to play NWN2/1 beceause they are the only D&D RPG that allow to do 100% custom adventure with its toolset and to provide an online network for it.

Basically to "kill" NWN2 or NWN1 you need a competitor that offer the feature of those games but in a better shape. And for now there is no announced game in devellopement that cover this field.

As long as NWN1 and NWN2 will be the only ones to provide their features, they won't deasappear.

[The Fred]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
Now sure...you can't create "whatever"....but then....do you need to? There will be plenty of classes and races eventually.

If this thing is going to be NWN1&2's successor, then yes, I do.

NWO could be a great game in it's own right. It is not NWN3. That's all.

[SuperFly_2000]

Shallina wrote...
The truth is that the NWN3 in devellopement isn't a competitor for NWN2/NWN1 at the moment if it remain a MMO.
 

It could pretty well be...at least for me...and probably some others.

Most of the players that where "lost" from NWN PW's are such that went to WoW....which is even further away....

[SuperFly_2000]

Shallina wrote...
DAO will have a MP component and and will be PW able beceause of fantastic modder.

I kind of jumped up and hit the roof when I read this. Is there somewhere you can read more about this?

Although I fear that it is too late and the game is too simplified to be interesting the news itself is still very interesting.

I however suspect that is is laggy, buggy and will be lacking a DM client component most probably....as I recon they are not working from the sourcecode here.


In any case...this is so funny....if even a single modder WITHOUT the source code can make this....imagine how simple it would have been for Bioware....

[Chromie]

Neverwinter Nights sucks...

[Shallina]

DAO will nevers have any MP component it's called Irony, one day poeple need to grow up and let all that irational fanboy mind aside and see things for what they are.

DAO is a fantastic SP game, with a toolset. But the toolset doesn't hold a candle next to the NWN2 one, beceause the toolset given isn't even the real one. They gave a crappy lightning generator instead of a real one since they couldn't give the one they used. They didn't even update the toolset for Awekening and DA2.


DAO only allow 3 texture while in nwn2 we got 8, And the area creator of the DA toolset is really bad since you can't check the terrain at every angle while creating the area.

Basically Bioware completly dropped the ball about DAO and its toolset.

They made a fantastic SP game, and that's it.


As for the NWN online so far it's a successor to the DDO made by Turbine, and not a successor to NWN1/NWN2. If they don't change the feature of their game it will be a DDO2 and not a NWN3.

Is DDO a competitor to NWN2 and NWN1 ? No, even if it's a cool game

NWN2 for now remain the most advanced toolset. Not that it's perfect, but so far there is nothing announced to compete except maybe the first "original" project of OBSIDIAN wich is still a big secret with only rumor around it.

It's true that we can do awesome area within NWN2, but the character animation could really be imprvoved.... Be for now since we got nothing else it will have to do.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 mai 2011 - 03:22 .

[SuperFly_2000]

For me...from what I've heard....it is not impossible that Neverwinter 2011 will be my NWN3.

But lets not bicker about what name it will have....the important is after all how it will be.

I don't understand this with the "succesor" thing....I mean they even didn't name it NWN3 did they...so what are we really talking about?

[MokahTGS]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

MokahTGS wrote...
I play Champions Online currently,

Why are you playing that? You said that you don't like it? ...just wondering...

Well I keep a few MMOs around and never really played a superhero one...it works pretty well for what it is, but I don't forsee me keeping the subscription much longer...

[Shallina]

Troolset oriented game are mainly PC game and entered around PC.

PC centered game for the last 3 years are only MMO and RTS.

I am starting to doubt if we'll ever get something that can compare to NWN1 and 2.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I see it this way.

NWN1 was a great game, was fun had a great toolset, it did what it tried to do. Which was make a game which allowed rule 0, PNP type dm'd games, and a lot of other things like PW's and SP games.

NWN2 went and listened to the many of the complaints of NWN1, which was that it was just no professional enough, and despite it being given almost no development time, was able to come up with a completely new game with its own target niche. It is kind of like a pro version of NWN1, made for people who don't mind the toolset being harder to use, or the required better graphics card, in return for the expanded set of features and options. ( real shame they made the mistake of not making it compatible more with NWN1 so those people could upgrade without losing features, it's in fact a completely new game despite many similarities )

Dragon Age targeted single player, did a toolset, but focused more on console games, spurts of blood and basically went on it's own path. It is pretty powerful as a toolset, but it's more geared toward adding things to the official game than doing your own world entire at this point, that will change, and i am sure someone will do a MP feature given enough time. I will believe that though when i see it -- a lot of things are announced by people who really have no clue how to do what they are announcing.

DDO did a great job on a MMO of D&D, never played it but it really seems like it's a lot of fun for what it is.

Now we have NWO, it's again a D&D game, built on the cryptic engine which is pretty cool for what it is. This time Atari is both publisher and developer, having bought a development studio just like EA bought bioware, and it's got a dev team who is willing to take chances and disagree with the community, you either love them or hate them, but i sure prefer that to leadership by committee.

Now is the question here which is the successor to NWN1, why is that even an issue, it's the wrong question. Unless you have a small hard drive you can buy ALL of the above. I would suggest DA as a playthru, to do NWN1 if you have not already, and when NWO comes out to get it. For a player it's just giving you options, i'd even get a copy of baldur's gate too while you are at it. The idea it's an exclusive choice is frankly just there to create a argument.

However as a developer, SP Module, DM, or PW owner the only ones which allow you to even implement your dreams happens to be NWN1 and NWN2. The other games were made mainly so the publisher can sell you modules, upgrades, and in game toys to enhance the official module. NWN1 and NWN2 were all about rule 0, the one rule the big companies don't really like since they end up being out of the money making loop. As such NWN3 is not going to come from an established company who is far more interested in micro-transactions and residual repeat sales, or from mass market appeal of consoles.

All these games can coexist happily, the more options we as gamers get, the more competition, the better, but just because something is shiny and new does not make it better. Both NWN1 and NWN2 are evolving, adding new features on a monthly basis, new content and every once in a while ground breaking features. The community here is capable of recreating these games, of making them be far more than was intended, either via Project Q and Peachykeen redoing the graphics, or skywing completely reworking the scripting, networking, client, server and even toolset.

NWN3 is just NWN1 and NWN2 after the community is done recreating it the way it really should have been to begin with.