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Cumulative constraint: the evolution of Bioware games between ME1 and DA2 (long)


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#1
Ieldra

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I'm writing this to illustrate a development that may lie at the heart of the disappointment many old fans feel when playing Bioware's new game(s). There is no doubt that some things in Bioware games have changed for the better, and I am not discounting these. I am also not discounting that the newer style may suit some players more. This is about one disappointing aspect that has become more and more annoying to me personally between ME1 and DA2: the things we could do in the older games, that we cannot do any more in the newer.

Let's start with ME1. We could:
-Revisit any location that was not closed off by main plot developments
-Change our companions' armor
-Explore many locations (planets) freely at any time.
-Talk to our companions at any time (DAO did this better, but for the sake of the argument I'll start here)
-do sidequests at almost any time after you've talked to the quest-giver

Then came DAO. With DAO, Bioware started to close off sidequest locations after the side quest playing out there was done. This was annoying, but didn't make a big impression because the game world was big enough without these locations. Why this is undesirable nonetheless I'll explain later.

With ME2, we lost the ability to change our companions' armor. We all know the reasons put forward for that, but my claim is that this was not done for the benefit of the player, but for the benefit of the character designers who did not want to see "their" character in generic armor, and to save resources by designing characters and their outfits in one piece.
In ME2, again "used" locations were closed off after the missions there were done, only this time it did impact the overall feel of the game world, making it appear small and fragmented. In a thread about that topic, I summarized that feeling as "ME1 had locations, ME2 had game levels".
ME2 also started the regrettable tendency of teleporting the player where they "needed to be" (after one such occurrence in ME1 and one on in DAO) and teleporting them away from side quest locations after they were supposedly done. Another element of constraint. I'll come to why this is important later.

Now comes DA2. We have now lost the ability to talk to our companions at any time. Even worse than that, when we CAN talk with them, it happens we also MUST talk with them. We can neither delay the talk nor do it earlier than we're told by our journal.
We can also don't do sidequests any more at any time. While this is well-grounded in the time frame of the events, it is, however, an added constraint that adds to the general feeling of cumulative constraint I'm trying to illustrate here.

I will now get to why these elements we have lost are important for the playing experience.

(Reasonably) free exploration and revisiting locations:
Now, I hear the developers asking "What is the point of revisiting locations where there is nothing more to do". Well, I could mention being able to collect stuff we've missed, such as companion armors in DA2's Act II which were inconveniently located in caves accessible only once. But that's not the point. The point is, yes there may not be a reason to actually revisit those locations, but the knowledge that we could do that if we wanted makes the world feel bigger. This is the main reason why ME2 feels fragmented and small compared to ME1.
Yes, the planet exploration in ME1 was generic, but the locations were unique enough. Put me down on any planet in ME1, at any outdoors location, and I can tell you on which planet I am. Thus the generic locations contributed to the size of the game world. Compare this with DA2, where not only were those locations closed off after being "used" for their respective quests, but in many cases there was also no way, if you were in one cave or house, to tell the difference to the next one.

Companion armor:
To be honest, I am one of those players who often uses less effective armor and clothing just because it looks better. So I do, in fact, appreciate the less generic looks of characters in the newer games. What I do not like - and what many players do not like who happen to see things the same way - is that I am restricted to the character designers' opinion of what looks good. The most annoying example is ME2's Miranda Lawson. A classy woman by her background, her default outfit looks like the cheaply thrilling stuff I feel a woman like her would never wear. That there are so widely differring opinions about this just proves my point. DA2's outfits are far less annoying, which may be, in part, due to fantasy being given more leeway than SF.
An additional effect this "one-piece design" has, i.e. characters and their outfits being designed as one, is the inflation of WTF moments because characters can't take off their armor where they should, for instance when Fenris drinks some wine and grips his glass with an armored glove. Sometime, it extends even to the protagonists, as in ME2's Shepard, who will drink stuff through his helmet when wearing certain armors.
I've often heard developers talk about "artistic choices". Well, it is their game, they may, of course, do what they want with it. But I wonder why they wouldn't want to avoid players go "Gah. Character X looks ugly in that outfit" by giving them a choice of two or three different outfits of differring styles. And a non-mission outfit for non-mission/civilian situations if neccessary. Is it that the character designers are too enamored of their work, that they must force players to look at things they might not like all the time, is it a matter of resources, that developers don't want to spend just for something the player may *not* look at all the time? I can only say that if I dislike a character's outfit enough, I won't take him or her with me regardless of her efficiency, unless I like other aspects of them enough to make up for it. So, game developers, if you want me to look at your characters, give me some way to change their outfits.
As they say, there is no accounting for taste. Please, game developers, don't force your artistic taste on me. It will only backfire. And if you create increasingly detailed interactive scenes - which I appreciate very much, btw - it will become ever more important that characters don't do stuff like drinking wine in armored gloves. Or through helmets.

Talking to companions at any time:
OK. I get it. If you want to have a meaningful conversation with your companions about current events and their current problems, you cannot talk with them about them at any time. There is, however, absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to talk with them about aspects of their personal background or backstory at any time. Those parts they choose to reveal at that point, anyway.
I don't know how other players feel, but the forced talks that I can neither delay nor move forward contribute more to the feeling that I am not acting in DA2, but that I am acted upon, than any other of the constraints mentioned in this post. They also contribute to DA2's characters feeling less complete, because those elements I could talk about at any time, such as characters' backstories, are increasingly not present. I know almost nothing about Varric's backstory or about Anders' backstory, compared to Leliana's and Morrigan's in DAO, or Mordin's or Miranda's in ME2. Even in ME2, with considerably less dialogue than DA2, I know more about the events that made the team members what they are than in DA2 with the exception of Fenris. I feel that the absence of free talks contributes to this effect.
I think that ME2 did things mostly right. We had a limited set of free talks plut a set of talks about the characters' current problems, mostly related to their missions.

The cumulative effect:
This is what makes me feel increasingly unfree in Bioware's games. I could, perhaps, live with one or the other added constraint, though, especially in the case of free exploration, not without complaining. But together, they add up. I increasingly feel: The world is small. I cannot do anything in my personal life. This is not my story. I am not creating my story. This is not my character
Please note: I am not complaining about plot constraints. I happen to like the way Hawke has limited influence on the big picture in DA2, even if the execution is lacking in some places. I am talking about small things I should be able to do freely like talking with my companions, visiting the locations of the game world and have some influence on the looks of my companions. This becomes even more important as the plot becomes more restrictive.

I know every aspect of this has been talked about ad infinitum. If you feel this is all superfluous, I cannot change that. But I do think that the cumulative effect of all these constraints affects the way DA2 feels much more than any single one of them. The whole, as they say, is greater than the sum of its parts. That also applies to DA2's constraints: the whole of the constraints feels greater than the sum of them. And to a certain extent to ME2's.
 

 
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

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#2
Zmajc

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Well it's pretty evident they're slowly moving from classic RPG games to cinematic action adventures.

Probably a bigger market in the long run. They'll loose most of their old time fanbase in the process but it's ultimately their decision. I don't agree with it but hey ... looks like we old time fans don't matter much these days anymore. It's all about the profit these days.

Weather people agree with it or not but consoles with their simplistic controllers did a lot of damage for hardcore PC game market.

Modifié par Zmajc, 05 avril 2011 - 09:24 .


#3
randName

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I approve, and in saying that I want to congratulate for writing what I hadn't formulated, but once I read your piece had, as if I could have written this, or as if I would have thought it up myself, and I wouldn't.

& yet I wish I had.

I really don't have anything meaningful to contribute outside thanks for a nice post, and hopefully a decent thread/discussion.

EDIT: ~ I spent hours arguing about companion armours before the release, with the same idea/problem at mind, and in the end you said what I wanted to say then a lot better than I ever did.

Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 09:34 .


#4
Ieldra

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Perhaps I should add that I'm more annoyed by this all because I think it would be relatively easy to mitigate most of the undesirable effects:

(1) Don't close off any locations after the missions there are done.
(2) Give players a choice of two stylistically different in-mission outfits (example: Miranda Lawson's default outfit and her AAP2 armor) which can be chosen at any time after the character has become part of the team, and give them one "civilian" outfit they wear in their free time (examples: Hawke's home outfit).
(3) Retain some "free talks" between the protagonist and the companions that can be chosen at any time.

More controversial, maybe, is the re-introduction of ME1's seamless world with its loading screens hidden by elevator sequences. In some ways, the loading screens are more honest, since the elevator scenes make players think that it could have been done faster if the developers had only wanted to, which leads to a lot of complaints. Yes, ME1 is the only Bioware game with a largely seamless world, but having experienced it once, its absence contributes to the feeling of being constrained.

#5
randName

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps I should add that I'm more annoyed by this all because I think it would be relatively easy to mitigate most of the undesirable effects:

(1) Don't close off any locations after the missions there are done.
(2) Give players a choice of two stylistically different in-mission outfits (example: Miranda Lawson's default outfit and her AAP2 armor) which can be chosen at any time after the character has become part of the team, and give them one "civilian" outfit they wear in their free time (examples: Hawke's home outfit).
(3) Retain some "free talks" between the protagonist and the companions that can be chosen at any time.

More controversial, maybe, is the re-introduction of ME1's seamless world with its loading screens hidden by elevator sequences. In some ways, the loading screens are more honest, since the elevator scenes make players think that it could have been done faster if the developers had only wanted to, which leads to a lot of complaints. Yes, ME1 is the only Bioware game with a largely seamless world, but having experienced it once, its absence contributes to the feeling of being constrained.


I think that was rather clear from your original post, but maybe it needs to be highlighted since most of these forums are occupied, I included, with much simpler and less complicated arguments like what opinion is the bestest, or in general if the colour blue is visually more pleasing than green, and why my opinion on the matter is more important than yours.

That said I've said little, but sometimes just to send one thread past those above can be worth posting about.

& I agree, there are several things BioWare could have done to make the game feel larger, and less restrictive.


EDIT:
I remember BG2, the first time you see Amn, and the mind boggling expanse it was to the mind for me at the time; I was lost for hours just gathering quests, talking to people, going through stores, and fatigued I almost stopped playing since I felt that all I did was to rummage through loose threads and beginnings.

I feel like BioWare with DA2 felt that even a hint of such vastness would be too much for the normal player of today, thus spoon feeding us quests and dialogue slowly as you progress through the story, but I wonder why they placed most of freedom and expanse at the start of Act1, and not somewhere in act 2 or 3.

Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 11:58 .


#6
KalDurenik

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Zmajc wrote...

Well it's pretty evident they're slowly moving from classic RPG games to cinematic action adventures.

Probably a bigger market in the long run. They'll loose most of their old time fanbase in the process but it's ultimately their decision. I don't agree with it but hey ... looks like we old time fans don't matter much these days anymore. It's all about the profit these days.

Weather people agree with it or not but consoles with their simplistic controllers did a lot of damage for hardcore PC game market.


I agree they are moving away from rpg's to adventure types of game where you are just following a character made by them with close to no input from the player.

#7
TeamVR

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Zmajc wrote...

Well it's pretty evident they're slowly moving from classic RPG games to cinematic action adventures.

Probably a bigger market in the long run. They'll loose most of their old time fanbase in the process but it's ultimately their decision. I don't agree with it but hey ... looks like we old time fans don't matter much these days anymore. It's all about the profit these days.
 


Hit the nail on the head.

Bioware will do whats best for bioware, forsaking RPG elements and complexity to appeal to a wider audience. So we need to start doing whats best for us, which is to stop complaining an reminicing about the "old days" and just take our wallets where they will be appriciated. 

DA2 was a good game, but it pretty much confirmed to me that DA:O was the last of a dying breed (from bioware anyway). I'll still play bioware's future releases (2nd hand) but i'm shifting my loyalties to other companies like Arrowhead (Magicka) and CD Projekt (The Witcher) and as always Blizzard. 

No hard feelings, bioware. We had some good times, right? We just grew apart...

Modifié par TeamVR, 05 avril 2011 - 12:02 .


#8
randName

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TeamVR wrote...
Arrowhead Game (Magicka)


Vietnam.


That's going to be awesome, and I assume I'll find plenty of new ways to accidentally kill myself.

& Yeah Bioware should do what Bioware wants, and I guess I just felt that they were getting back to games I like to play with DA:O, and its sad to see them change directions so fast, despite how successful DA:O turned out to be.

#9
Ieldra

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Actually, I do not agree that Bioware is moving away from roleplaying.

The actual roleplaying - which is defining who your character is by actions and decisions - in DA2 is quite good. In fact I do prefer the way that aspect is done to the way most other Bioware games did it.

Bioware games have also always be defined very much by the plot, from BG2 onwards. In fact, you could say the story of cumulative constraints starts with the move from BG1 to BG2, which does illustrate that constraints are not, per se and always, a bad thing. BG2 profited a lot from giving the main plot more importance, including closing some areas off and opening others as the main plot demanded.

The problem is that together with the restrictions necessitated by the plot, which became quite a bit more restrictive with the move from DAO to DA2 but were not to noticeable in ME1 or ME2, other constraints like those mentioned in my OP were introduced or narrowed which are completely unnecessary. It is, for instance, not necessary to close off sidequest locations.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2011 - 12:13 .


#10
TeamVR

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randName wrote...

& Yeah Bioware should do what Bioware wants, and I guess I just felt that they were getting back to games I like to play with DA:O, and its sad to see them change directions so fast, despite how successful DA:O turned out to be.


Ditto. I always assumed that with DA and ME, bioware was aiming at two groups. One for the RPG purist, one for the more casual. Both great games. But they seem to be two different flavors of the same product now. 

bioware has spoken

#11
Ieldra

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I would like to move away from generalizing comments in this thread. I feel that Bioware has the ability to make games liked by a majority of the old fans as well as by "latecomers" (compared to the likes of me who started playing Bioware games in 1998 anyway). And I think the effort to do so would not cost an extraordinary amount of resources.

If I did not think that, I wouldn't have bothered to start this topic. So please, concentrate more on the issues which contribute to the feeling of being constrained in the newer games and their possible solutions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2011 - 12:20 .


#12
Zalocx

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TeamVR wrote...

randName wrote...

& Yeah Bioware should do what Bioware wants, and I guess I just felt that they were getting back to games I like to play with DA:O, and its sad to see them change directions so fast, despite how successful DA:O turned out to be.


Ditto. I always assumed that with DA and ME, bioware was aiming at two groups. One for the RPG purist, one for the more casual. Both great games. But they seem to be two different flavors of the same product now. 

bioware has spoken


I'm still confused as how people bemoan the "dumbing down" of DA2 yet seem to insist that DA:O was some throwback to the golden age of BG/NWN. When in reality I thought the level of "dumbing down" Between say BGII:ToB or NWN:HotU and DA:O was VASTLY more prominant. What with the loss of racial stat moddifiers, a mana based cooldown spell system instead of a slots per day vancian one, regenerating health after each combat sequence and 4-tier talents replacing point buy skill systems. I know a lot of people think of Origins as an "old school RPG" and I really like it, but when I look at PS:T, both BGs, NWN + both expansions, and the first two Fallouts sitting on my shelf Origins REALLY seems closer to DA2/ME than any of them.

#13
TeamVR

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, I do not agree that Bioware is moving away from roleplaying.

The actual roleplaying - which is defining who your character is by actions and decisions - in DA2 is quite good. In fact I do prefer the way that aspect is done to the way most other Bioware games did it.


True, but I think your definition of roleplaying, in this case, is very broad. 

I guess the best way to explain my feelings on this without assaulting everyone with a wall of text is to say that Bioware has moved from a "create your adventure" philosphy to "experience this adventure"

There are no more created characters, deep exploration, or any number of things people complain about on this forum every day. How long until party members are unreplaceable? Or we aren't given dialogue choices anymore (some would argue this has already happened. and with the DA2 "ending" it's hard to disagree)?

For sure bioware still provides a top notch role playing experience, but what happened to our beloved role playing GAMES?

Bioware games have also always be defined very much by the plot, from BG2 onwards. In fact, you could say the story of cumulative constraints starts with the move from BG1 to BG2, which does illustrate that constraints are not, per se and always, a bad thing. BG2 profited a lot from giving the main plot more importance, including closing some areas off and opening others as the main plot demanded.

The problem is that together with the restrictions necessitated by the plot, which became quite a bit more restrictive with the move from DAO to DA2 but were not to noticeable in ME1 or ME2, other constraints like those mentioned in my OP were introduced or narrowed which are completely unnecessary. It is, for instance, not necessary to close off sidequest locations.


I don't disagree with any of this

#14
Purgatious

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My motto is, if its good quaility gaming I don't care what they try. ME2 and Origins we're quaility regardless of your stance on the direction their taking their RPGs. DA2 wasn't quailty, or quantity.

Evolution requires, no mandates only the best funtions survive. If you want to streamline, do it well or not at all.

#15
TeamVR

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Zalocx wrote...

I'm still confused as how people bemoan the "dumbing down" of DA2 yet seem to insist that DA:O was some throwback to the golden age of BG/NWN. When in reality I thought the level of "dumbing down" Between say BGII:ToB or NWN:HotU and DA:O was VASTLY more prominant. What with the loss of racial stat moddifiers, a mana based cooldown spell system instead of a slots per day vancian one, regenerating health after each combat sequence and 4-tier talents replacing point buy skill systems. I know a lot of people think of Origins as an "old school RPG" and I really like it, but when I look at PS:T, both BGs, NWN + both expansions, and the first two Fallouts sitting on my shelf Origins REALLY seems closer to DA2/ME than any of them.


I agree with you and I don't agree with you.

I agree that there is a greater difference between BG2 and DA:O than DA:O and DA2, but I think the difference between DA:O and DA2 is more significant. 

Firstly, DA:O was released almost a decade after BG2:ToB. Some things you just gotta chalk up to time. Like, what major titles will you see running on a D&D system these days? It ain't gonna happen. All those great titles you mentioned are classics for sure, but we will never get a true throwback experience like those again. DA:O at least seemed to understand, and tried to provide the best of both worlds.  And I think it did a pretty good job.

DA2, on the other hand, is clearly not calling back to those times. With only a few tweeks it managed to move even further away than DA:O ever could. I saw DA:O as an attempt to bring the classic RPG to a new decade, while DA2 is actively trying to distance itself from it. Almost to the point where I struggle to call it an RPG. And that's a pretty massive change considering DA:O was only released about 2 years ago, and most of the dev team is probably the same people that worked on the original. 

Modifié par TeamVR, 05 avril 2011 - 12:44 .


#16
blacqout

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I don't see why the inability to change your companions outfit is such a commonly cited criticism.

Fenris' spiky armour looks cooler and more unique than anything you can put on Alistair or Sten. The same can be said about every DAII companion.

Of all the complaints about the direction BioWare are going in, this is by far the dumbest. Some people actually like other people to be interesting and unique. Not just in personality, but appearance too.

Thankfully BioWare seem to understand that an "iconic" approach is better than letting people play dress up. It was the right move in Mass Effect 2 and it was the right move with Dragon Age II.

Edit: Oh, i didn't realise this was an Ieldra thread. The lack of overt racism threw me off.

Modifié par blacqout, 05 avril 2011 - 12:46 .


#17
alan614

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Zalocx wrote...

TeamVR wrote...

randName wrote...

& Yeah Bioware should do what Bioware wants, and I guess I just felt that they were getting back to games I like to play with DA:O, and its sad to see them change directions so fast, despite how successful DA:O turned out to be.


Ditto. I always assumed that with DA and ME, bioware was aiming at two groups. One for the RPG purist, one for the more casual. Both great games. But they seem to be two different flavors of the same product now. 

bioware has spoken


I'm still confused as how people bemoan the "dumbing down" of DA2 yet seem to insist that DA:O was some throwback to the golden age of BG/NWN. When in reality I thought the level of "dumbing down" Between say BGII:ToB or NWN:HotU and DA:O was VASTLY more prominant. What with the loss of racial stat moddifiers, a mana based cooldown spell system instead of a slots per day vancian one, regenerating health after each combat sequence and 4-tier talents replacing point buy skill systems. I know a lot of people think of Origins as an "old school RPG" and I really like it, but when I look at PS:T, both BGs, NWN + both expansions, and the first two Fallouts sitting on my shelf Origins REALLY seems closer to DA2/ME than any of them.


One dumbing down of DA2 is the loss of stat based mechanics outside of combat. In the older games you mentioned and DAO, your stats had a way of influencing your interactions with the world. In the BG series, you had your Charisma which can affect merchant prices and overall interactions, Strength in bashing locks if your weren't a theif, magic resistance and saving throws on trapped areas which didn't necessarily lead to combat, heck they don't even have trapped chests in DA2. If you were a warrior class, you get an opportunity to acquire a stronghold.

NWN had diplomacy and intimidation in conversation, wisdom and intelligence could also open up more conversation options, your heal skill can would allow you to get more information from an NPC. In Fallout, you had your science skill to interact with computer, probably to attempt to hack them, speech skill to try and convince the NPC you're someone you're not.

In DA:O, there was the coecion + cunning for persuasion, Dexterity or Cunning for when trying to catch isabella from cheating. There was even a whole set of quests which only activate if you were a rogue.

Basically, character building has become devoid in DA2 and ME2, all you really had to think about was combat skills, which to be honest, is NOT what a roleplaying game is entirely about, and neither is plain simple storytelling. While a more focused storytelling is nice, it could get into the pitfall of failing to recognize your character. I've seen repeated threads on why do the templars not react on your being a mage, even moreso if you were a bloodmage. Whereas in BG, if you cast an spell in public in Athkala cowled wizard will teleport in and try to arrest you.

The world in DA2 will only react to the Hawke Bioware has pre-defined for you. The story doesn't bend to the uniqueness of your Hawke, you're just there for the ride, which doesn't make it far from being an Adventure game. It's dumb down game in the sense that it doesn't concern you with thinking about anything beyond combat, it doesn't make you reconsider the social repercussions of building your character.

Modifié par alan614, 05 avril 2011 - 12:49 .


#18
TeamVR

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blacqout wrote...

I don't see why the inability to change your companions outfit is such a commonly cited criticism.

Fenris' spiky armour looks cooler and more unique than anything you can put on Alistair or Sten. The same can be said about every DAII companion.

Of all the complaints about the direction BioWare are going in, this is by far the dumbest. Some people actually like other people to be interesting and unique. Not just in personality, but appearance too.

Thankfully BioWare seem to understand that an "iconic" approach is better than letting people play dress up. It was the right move in Mass Effect 2 and it was the right move with Dragon Age II.

Edit: Oh, i didn't realise this was an Ieldra thread. The lack of overt racism threw me off.


If thats the way you feel then so be it. I'm not trying to sway opinions. 

To me it was never about which armor looked "cooler". It was about trying to maximize the effectiveness of your party. in DA2, for example, I used Fenris as a 2h tank. I would have liked to have equipped some heavy armor to compensate for the lack of a shield, but obviously that option was not availiable to me. 

I'd pick up tons and tons of armor that only hawke could use, but because of my class or play style I had neither the reason or the ability to use it. Was pretty silly to be unable to use 90% of the items I was picking up, especially when they're all designated for me to use. The system was handled much better in ME2

Modifié par TeamVR, 05 avril 2011 - 12:54 .


#19
Ieldra

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blacqout wrote...
I don't see why the inability to change your companions outfit is such a commonly cited criticism.

Fenris' spiky armour looks cooler and more unique than anything you can put on Alistair or Sten. The same can be said about every DAII companion.

Of all the complaints about the direction BioWare are going in, this is by far the dumbest. Some people actually like other people to be interesting and unique. Not just in personality, but appearance too.

Thankfully BioWare seem to understand that an "iconic" approach is better than letting people play dress up. It was the right move in Mass Effect 2 and it was the right move with Dragon Age II.

As I said, taken on its own, and as a matter of principle, I wouldn't have complained about it a lot. Except that it is one aspect that contributes to the feeling of having no choices where we should have them. Also regarding DA2, I don't have an issue with any of DA2's companions' outfits except that I dislike Fenris drinking wine with an armored glove. Again on its own, this is a small complaint. But over the course of several games, they add up until some day, I might realize that there aren't enough choices left in the small things that I can feel at home in the game world presented to me. 

Edit: Oh, i didn't realise this was an Ieldra thread. The lack of overt racism threw me off.

You mix up racism with complaints about consistency. Understand what I am arguing about before making assumptions and posting insults.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2011 - 01:04 .


#20
abaris

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alan614 wrote...

The world in DA2 will only react to the Hawke Bioware has pre-defined for you. The story doesn't bend to the uniqueness of your Hawke, you're just there for the ride, which doesn't make it far from being an Adventure game. It's dumb down game in the sense that it doesn't concern you with thinking about anything beyond combat, it doesn't make you reconsider the social repercussions of building your character.



I would call the world not reacting to a mage character a game breaking story flaw. Even more so, since the backstory is actually built on enemity between templars and mages.

Btw, very good post. Although you're conversational skills still had kind of an influence in ME2. Paragon and Renegade opened up conversational trees. I agree, they were reduced compared to earlier games, but it was still bearable. It came to be a serious issue with Awakenings. So much so, that I haven't been able to finish a single playthrough of this addon, when I noticed the game decided when and where I could have a bloody word with my companions. I didn't like that one bit, but excused it by telling myself its just an addon. But it seems to be the new road they are taking.

#21
blacqout

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Ieldra2 wrote...




Edit: Oh, i didn't realise this was an Ieldra thread. The lack of overt racism threw me off.

You mix up racism with complaints about consistency. Understand what I am arguing about before making assumptions and posting insults.


Uhm, yeah. The phrase "lack of" denotes that something is missing, not that it has been confused with or for something else. 

I know that English isn't your strong suite from our previous disagreements on Miranda's attire (the one in which you stooped to racist commentary), but nothing in my post suggests that i "mixed up" anything; i quite clearly stated that it wasn't there.

Modifié par blacqout, 05 avril 2011 - 01:15 .


#22
Sacred_Fantasy

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BioWare is moving toward making animation movie with hack n slash elements. So prepare to grab some popcorns and enjoy the show.

On the hand, I think I prefer to go to cinema instead.

But don't worry OP, indie companies are still making role-playing games create-your-adventure lite or diablo type games. BioWare already did that with BG 2, PT, NW and probably their last of the line, DAO. They probably already dried up with the idea of RPG. Let them do other things. Who knows, Interactive movie hack n slash Dynasty Warrior MMO may become as popular as Counter Strike or Medal of Honor or CoD in the future.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 avril 2011 - 01:22 .


#23
Ieldra

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@blacqout:
Oh....it's you.... should've recognized that. Anyway, I recommend we stay on topic and do not comment on other threads. I would dislike this thread to go the way of your last one.

@Sacred_Fantasy:
The thing is I do like Bioware's interactive scenes. And I like plot-heavy games instead of diablo-type games. Generally, I think they're moving in the right direction in several aspects. Which makes those where they don't even more annoying.

#24
Sacred_Fantasy

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Ieldra2 wrote...
The thing is I do like Bioware's interactive scenes. And I like plot-heavy games instead of diablo-type games. Generally, I think they're moving in the right direction in several aspects. Which makes those where they don't even more annoying.

There you go. There is nothing to worry about. BioWare will likely going to streamlined their games further to make your interactive cinema come true. Streamlined cost less and easier to design anyway. 

#25
MrTijger

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

BioWare is moving toward making animation movie with hack n slash elements. So prepare to grab some popcorns and enjoy the show. 


Have you played NWN? They already did movie style cut scenes there and the rest of the exposition was done via blocks of text. So for one, that has been a move of a decade now and second, do you really prefer chunks of inanimate text over an acted movie cutscene? I certainly do not.