94 réponses à ce sujet

[blacqout]

I don't particularly care how this thread goes, but i care less to engage a known racist.

Seleznyov out.

[randName]

blacqout wrote...

I don't see why the inability to change your companions outfit is such a commonly cited criticism.

Fenris' spiky armour looks cooler and more unique than anything you can put on Alistair or Sten. The same can be said about every DAII companion.

Of all the complaints about the direction BioWare are going in, this is by far the dumbest. Some people actually like other people to be interesting and unique. Not just in personality, but appearance too.

Thankfully BioWare seem to understand that an "iconic" approach is better than letting people play dress up. It was the right move in Mass Effect 2 and it was the right move with Dragon Age II.

Personally I strongly dislike the costume Fenris uses, I could hardly call it an armour at all, and I would like the option not to use it; but now I simply resort to not using Fenris at all save his companion quests.

& this is one of the reasons options are good, so you like it, fine, but it would hardly be hard to have some optional armours he could use, or simply allow us to use a generic armour instead of the suit he is currently wearing. & I would like to change the armours of at least all but 2 of the companions in DA2, since I don't think what they are currently wearing to be suitable for combat at all.

I actually don't use several characters in ME2 or DA2 simply due to how ridiculous their armours look when they move out into the field, and silly how easy it would be for Bioware to allow both options within their game.

[Ieldra]

OK, does the move from inanimate text to interactive scenes contribute to feeling constrained? For that is what this topic is about....

Well, of course inanimate text needs less resources to create so any game with interactive scenes could have used the same resources for quite a lot more of inanimate text. Having ten to fifteen conversation options as was reasonably common in PST is sadly a thing of the past, at least until the production of interactive scenes has gotten a lot cheaper.

But I wouldn't want to go back. You can convey so much more with interactive scenes. Characters come to life so much more directly, and having your interactions show on the screen instead of being present only in your mind is a big step forward. I even prefer a voiced protagonist over an unvoiced one as a rule. In these cases, I find the limits created by the new presentation style acceptable.

[tausra]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The thing is I do like Bioware's interactive scenes. And I like plot-heavy games instead of diablo-type games. Generally, I think they're moving in the right direction in several aspects. Which makes those where they don't even more annoying.

There you go. There is nothing to worry about. BioWare will likely going to streamlined their games further to make your interactive cinema come true. Streamlined cost less and easier to design anyway. 

Did you even read what he said? You can have a heavy Plot and Interactive scenes without it being streamlined and simplified. Honestly, I worry about the reading comprehension of the world sometimes...

To the OP, I agree, slowly but surely choices, options and player/character interaction is dying. I don't believe every area should be left open after their quest is done, but the bigger areas, Like the Deep Roads, should. I also don't expect BioWare to ever give us the choice of companion armor, for free, ever again. There is too much profit waiting in the eventual "Appearance Packs" for them to ever bestow such kindness.

[blacqout]

randName wrote...

blacqout wrote...

I don't see why the inability to change your companions outfit is such a commonly cited criticism.

Fenris' spiky armour looks cooler and more unique than anything you can put on Alistair or Sten. The same can be said about every DAII companion.

Of all the complaints about the direction BioWare are going in, this is by far the dumbest. Some people actually like other people to be interesting and unique. Not just in personality, but appearance too.

Thankfully BioWare seem to understand that an "iconic" approach is better than letting people play dress up. It was the right move in Mass Effect 2 and it was the right move with Dragon Age II.

Personally I strongly dislike the costume Fenris uses, I could hardly call it an armour at all, and I would like the option not to use it; but now I simply resort to not using Fenris at all save his companion quests.

& this is one of the reasons options are good, so you like it, fine, but it would hardly be hard to have some optional armours he could use, or simply allow us to use a generic armour instead of the suit he is currently wearing. & I would like to change the armours of at least all but 2 of the companions in DA2, since I don't think what they are currently wearing to be suitable for combat at all.

I actually don't use several characters in ME2 or DA2 simply due to how ridiculous their armours look when they move out into the field, and silly how easy it would be for Bioware to allow both options within their game.

What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

I dislike Aveline's outfit, but i love that she has her own aesthetic identity. It's as much a part of her character as her iron will.

[thompsonaf]

Agree with OP on all counts.

Edit:

To add, you can see that Bioware is aware of space spandex complaints because of Appearance Pack #2 which put Miranda in actual armor.

Modifié par thompsonaf, 05 avril 2011 - 02:52 .

[88mphSlayer]

again, i think an open world bioware game would be good for them

[Sacred_Fantasy]

tausra wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The thing is I do like Bioware's interactive scenes. And I like plot-heavy games instead of diablo-type games. Generally, I think they're moving in the right direction in several aspects. Which makes those where they don't even more annoying.

There you go. There is nothing to worry about. BioWare will likely going to streamlined their games further to make your interactive cinema come true. Streamlined cost less and easier to design anyway. 

Did you even read what he said? You can have a heavy Plot and Interactive scenes without it being streamlined and simplified. Honestly, I worry about the reading comprehension of the world sometimes...

Why not? Don't you want more story than playing? Heavy plot is all about story and Interactive scenes is a way to convey the story. So why bother with customization and gameplay related?

[AkiKishi]

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[MonkeyLungs]

thompsonaf wrote...

Agree with OP on all counts.

Edit:

To add, you can see that Bioware is aware of space spandex complaints because of Appearance Pack #2 which put Miranda in actual armor.

That you have to buy with actual money. This will happen in DA2 as well. Alternate appearnace packs for real world loot.

[thompsonaf]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...

Agree with OP on all counts.

Edit:

To add, you can see that Bioware is aware of space spandex complaints because of Appearance Pack #2 which put Miranda in actual armor.

That you have to buy with actual money. This will happen in DA2 as well. Alternate appearnace packs for real world loot.

Probably why they haven't released the toolset patch. No money from mods.

[R-F]

I agree on the conversation point. They did it well in ME2, repeated conversations were almost non existent, and characters gradually told you more and more about themselves in addition to context specific conversations. I loved that in ME2, and it did feel semi-lacking in DA2, mostly on repeated plays though.

The companion armour issue doesn't bother me in the slightest, in fact I found the pre-sets in ME2 more annoying than in DA2. I think your point on a fantasy setting getting more liberty than a sci fi one was spot on so kudos for that one.

As for the side quest note, again that doesn't really bug me. I rarely revisit locations that I've completed, whats the point if there is nothing there? I guess I can see people wanting to return to a cool location, ME1 had many uncharted worlds that were fun to just wander around on, but again why bother returning once you've completed everything on said planet.

I think for this theory to work you have to go back and look at Jade Empire, and to a lesser extent Kotor, which played out in similar fashions to the newer games. Jade Empire didn't have any armour upgrades at all, and had a similar combat system to DA2, and even a similar approach to side quests and closing off areas. It was still fantastic even without those things. Kotor allowed you more freedom but still had a restricting feel to exploration. I think ME1 was their most open game to date (note I can't include BG or anything pre Kotor as I never played those games) out of those I've listed so far, and maybe they realized that a game that large and open was not as economically feasible as the fans would like.

As long as they don't remove anything else and maybe open the dialogue back up a little any further game will be better. I still enjoyed DA2 (on third run now), but it would be nice to be able to find out my companion's back stories aside from Fenris who is an open book.

at op: well thought out argument, its nice to see people actually thinking through their post instead of just spouting off a bunch of complaints.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

MrTijger wrote...
Have you played NWN? They already did movie style cut scenes there and the rest of the exposition was done via blocks of text. So for one, that has been a move of a decade now

NW did that? Hmmm... I must have miss that since I created my own adventure with Aurora Toolset and playing Co-op more than paying attention to NW official story. 

MrTijger wrote...
and second, do you really prefer chunks of inanimate text over an acted movie cutscene? I certainly do not.

Let say, I don't prefer watching predefined BioWare hero taking my place as the main character in my story, I never like Final Fantasy 7 Cloud Strife anyway. The movie was awesome but the game isn't for for me.

If the cutscene is about my hero and the story is about me shaping the story, I certainly don't mind it. But that's not happening. Mostly I see fixed characters in front of the camera.  That wasn't problem for Bioware RPG before because they provided toolset to keep me happy. Not until ME2 and DA 2. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[randName]

blacqout wrote...

What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

I dislike Aveline's outfit, but i love that she has her own aesthetic identity. It's as much a part of her character as her iron will.

Nor should they do it for you, I'm just saying that I'd prefer this option, and you are saying that you prefer this option; that you decide to act an ass by trying to state what is known by all already, that BioWare does what they want, is just retarded.

& My comment was never a demand, just saying that it would be easy to reconcile both strands of gamers, and to low cost for BioWare; giving both groups more of a reason to play BioWare games, and in the end that's on of the key things.

In the end if you or I would stop buying BioWare games, BioWare won't notice.

So get down from your high horse.

[88mphSlayer]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<

[Ieldra]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

I was most emphatically not speaking about main plot-related choices. How much protagonists should be able to influence the main plot is a very different question.

The cumulative constraint I was talking about is, in fact, most noticeable where the main plot is not touched. After all, if a main plot location is destroyed it makes sense that we can't go there anymore, and if NPCs do something main plot-related it makes sense that we can't talk with them about it before it is done. But if we only killed a minor criminal on a map for a side quest, it makes no sense to close that location off and unnecessary make the world smaller for the player, and it makes no sense that we can't talk with our companions about their backstory and general habit and dislikes any time, given sufficient sympathy.

In the big things, constraints are necessary if you want to tell a story. In the small things, they restrict you from feeling at home in the game world.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[randName]

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<

Some of the reasons felt very arbitrary, esp. the human noble; you had a way out and your only reason was that by doing so you could more easily convince the king? 

The Dalish and both Dwarven felt better, and the City elf was so so; you could easily have walked away as the guards entered and then gone into hiding; but no you are forced to stand there like a dolt and confess.

[AkiKishi]

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<

You were not. Events in the world made you a Warden, That's not the same thing. Railroading is when something is done with no real explanation beyond it needing to happen for the story.

Example putting Hawke in stasis for 3 years while events could deteriate to a point where you could only fail.

[randName]

BobSmith101 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<

You were not. Events in the world made you a Warden, That's not the same thing. Railroading is when something is done with no real explanation beyond it needing to happen for the story.

Example putting Hawke in stasis for 3 years while events could deteriate to a point where you could only fail.

I would claim that at least 2 of the origins railroaded you to become a Warden, as when you were forced to start the quest after Flemeths hut; all that stopped you from doing something else was Alistair, and he would be easily dispatched, and some silly motivational speech from Flemeth (let someone else sort it out).

Or at least I had zero interest/motivation at that point in DA:O, not reason at all for me to continue with the quest - maybe I started coming around after Lothering, and by just going through the motions of the story.

This was the first time I played, after that there was more of a reason for me to get into it, but the game never managed to motivate me at all until somewhere after the circle battle the first time out (I did the circle first).

Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[blacqout]

randName wrote...

blacqout wrote...

What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

I dislike Aveline's outfit, but i love that she has her own aesthetic identity. It's as much a part of her character as her iron will.

Nor should they do it for you, I'm just saying that I'd prefer this option, and you are saying that you prefer this option; that you decide to act an ass by trying to state what is known by all already, that BioWare does what they want, is just retarded.

& My comment was never a demand, just saying that it would be easy to reconcile both strands of gamers, and to low cost for BioWare; giving both groups more of a reason to play BioWare games, and in the end that's on of the key things.

In the end if you or I would stop buying BioWare games, BioWare won't notice.

So get down from your high horse.

They're not "pandering" to me. To pander means to cater to the lower tastes of others.

Ignoring the fact that my side of the argument is clearly the "higher taste"... it just so happens that my thoughts on companion attires line up with what BioWare wanted to do.

And i didn't even attempt to state that "BioWare does what it wants". My justification for my opinion is that it simply results in more vivid and interesting looking characters, not that it's BioWare's call. 

[rubydog1]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

MrTijger wrote...
Have you played NWN? They already did movie style cut scenes there and the rest of the exposition was done via blocks of text. So for one, that has been a move of a decade now

NW did that? Hmmm... I must have miss that since I created my own adventure with Aurora Toolset and playing Co-op more than paying attention to NW official story. 

Other than the intro cinematic (which seemed to have nothing to do with the actual game - a minotaur?), the chapter transitions in the original campaign were a series of static images with narration, music, and other sound effects.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I think BioWare should improve lightning, scaling and level of detail of character face. The game engine makes every character looks like clones. If they want to have unique appearance, they better improve on this area. Otherwise, make every npcs including merchants and common folks to have unique clothing too.

[AkiKishi]

randName wrote...
I would claim that at least 2 of the origins railroaded you to become a Warden, as when you were forced to start the quest after Flemeths hut; all that stopped you from doing something else was Alistair, and he would be easily dispatched, and some silly motivational speech from Flemeth (let someone else sort it out).

Or at least I had zero interest/motivation at that point in DA:O, not reason at all for me to continue with the quest - maybe I started coming around after Lothering, and by just going through the motions of the story.

This was the first time I played, after that there was more of a reason for me to get into it, but the game never managed to motivate me at all until somewhere after the circle battle the first time out (I did the circle first).

This is where games like PST have really never been equaled. PST allowed you to fail. There were a lot of endings which were not related to the end of the game.

[88mphSlayer]

randName wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.

i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<

Some of the reasons felt very arbitrary, esp. the human noble; you had a way out and your only reason was that by doing so you could more easily convince the king? 

The Dalish and both Dwarven felt better, and the City elf was so so; you could easily have walked away as the guards entered and then gone into hiding; but no you are forced to stand there like a dolt and confess.

i think the best origin story in DAO was the royal dwarven origin because it gave you a real motivation to get back to Orzammar with a crew to wreck Bhelen... the only origin story i haven't done yet is the Dalish, but i didn't feel so much motivation from any of the other origin stories

and yeah after the battle of ostagar there was very little motivation for me to continue on my grey warden quest on my first playthrough, i mean revenge against Loghain is petty in the middle of a blight, had the game actually done what Loghain was said to be doing (making wardens into traitors) then maybe that would've been motivation enough along the way - but that aspect of storytelling was completely absent - basically in the long run i became more captivated by the side quests than by deposing Loghain or fighting for Denerim

DA2 railroads you as well, plenty of times really, i'm just wondering if the difference for people whether railroading works or not is if an npc tells you why you're being railroaded or not

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 05 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Zmajc wrote...

Well it's pretty evident they're slowly moving from classic RPG games to cinematic action adventures.

Probably a bigger market in the long run. They'll loose most of their old time fanbase in the process but it's ultimately their decision. I don't agree with it but hey ... looks like we old time fans don't matter much these days anymore. It's all about the profit these days.

Weather people agree with it or not but consoles with their simplistic controllers did a lot of damage for hardcore PC game market.

When I was playing D&D out of the white box in 1978, we were trying to create cinematic action adventures.  The limiting factor was the hardware we were forced to use.  Our brains could only handle so many operations per second, and our video software wasn't compatible from player to player.

Some of the most enthusiastic fans of the changes in CRPG design are old time RPG'ers--me, for instance.  I may not be a big fan of rushing a product to market, or the in-game homosexuality (or, for that matter, how prominent a place the forced, goofy romances of all sorts had assumed--seems to be mainly at the insistence of the fanbase, so it's hard to question it), or recycling the scenery too much (three things that will probably prevent me from buying the game)--but the overall direction is something I've been looking forward to for decades.

Even the oft-maligned idea of something awesome happening when a button is pushed isn't incompatible with that old school RPG feel.  That's what we were going for when we rolled that icosahedron at a critical point in the game.  If things are otherwise well-implemented, "awesome" is exactly what a designer is striving for.  Now, we can certainly argue over whether guys jumping 10 feet in the air with enormous weapons and causing crazy fountaints of blood actually qualifies as awesome (way over the top for my taste), but I don't think you're going to chase designers away from trying to find some for of awesome.  That's what RPG geekdom is all about.