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Cumulative constraint: the evolution of Bioware games between ME1 and DA2 (long)


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#51
Tantum Dic Verbo

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BobSmith101 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.


i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<


You were not. Events in the world made you a Warden, That's not the same thing. Railroading is when something is done with no real explanation beyond it needing to happen for the story.

Example putting Hawke in stasis for 3 years while events could deteriate to a point where you could only fail.


Where I come from, forcing my human noble into Grey Warden servitude is the very definition of railroading.  I was ready to give my computer a dozen alternate conversation options to keep me from leaving the castle with that bearded oaf.  I was ready to stand by my mother and father and fight, or go it alone outside the castle and try to find justice for my betrayed family.  Nope, only choice is to go with Duncan, join his silly organization, and stand by as most of the local chapter gets eradicated.  Railroading.  If most tabletop GM's tried something like that without previous buy-in from the players, he'd have a much emptier table for the next session.

Mind you, computer games don't have much choice but to railroad you--but that's still what they're doing.

#52
Ieldra

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@Tantum Dic Verbo:
I fully agree with you. I am not against cinematic action. I, too, recall the old times and how I longed for the time when graphic engines would be able to render fireballs and such. Never, though, did I imagine that they would remove friendly fire and create hundreds of throw-away low-hp enemies just to enable players to and motivate them to spam them without thought.

I also think that cinematic presentation is fully compatible with reasonable freedom of movement and exploration for players in areas where the main plot is not touched, with choices about when to talk to characters and with having influence over your companions outfits. The restrictions I was complaining about in my OP are annoying because they seem arbitrary, they seem to restrict players for no purpose. Or what can be so difficult in keeping locations open, and to leave me more choice about when to speak to my companions?

#53
xkg

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[/quote]
blacqout wrote...
What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

I dislike Aveline's outfit, but i love that she has her own aesthetic identity. It's as much a part of her character as her iron will.
[/quote]

oh man i cant belive it
you are calling someone racist while being one of the biggest ignorant ass i have ever seen
yes it doesnt metter what other wants as long as you have been given what you want
why are you even here if you dont care about ohter people opinions ... or maybe you do only if they do like same things as you

Modifié par xkg, 05 avril 2011 - 04:43 .


#54
randName

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88mphSlayer wrote...
i think the best origin story in DAO was the royal dwarven origin because it gave you a real motivation to get back to Orzammar with a crew to wreck Bhelen... the only origin story i haven't done yet is the Dalish, but i didn't feel so much motivation from any of the other origin stories


I agree, the Dwarven Noble gives you one of the better reasons, since you have little choice; same with the Dalish story.

Or you get poisioned by something only joining the warden can save you from (the blood that is).

It doesn't motivate you to continue after the hut on the other side, but at least the option to not joining would be a slow death from posion.

Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 04:48 .


#55
Grammarye

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Excellent OP; well thought out, well reasoned.

For my two pence, I felt that lack of companion armours made a statement along the lines of 'well we're creating this world, not you', which flew directly in the face of all the concepts of choice - I don't care whether someone feels one armour or another is aesthetically pleasing - it's an armour, it's not a dress uniform to look pretty in, it's to go out & kill people in whilst surviving yourself. Whilst in real human history there was a point where pretty uniforms were par for the course, that was because wars were treated as duels writ large, rather than conflicts, and certainly the era of knights, from which fantasy heavily draws, had one purpose & one purpose only - kill the other person first. As a concept, pretty uniforms & what they entail do not mesh well with the typical rogue/thief persona where you fight dirty, for example. Mass Effect 2 had the advantage of high tech - you can excuse just about anything if you have shields. Not so in an environ where magic is heavily regulated and the only thing keeping you alive (or all your limbs intact) is sheet steel, toughened leather, and so on.

To the above, some may say 'but it's a game' - to which my retort is 'so is Minecraft, but don't ask me to empathise with a cube or consider it to provide immersion'. Immersion is a lot of different things to different people, but I'd say top of the list is believing the world you are immersed in, or sufficient willing suspension of disbelief to allow equivalent. DA2 took what ME2 had stretched and pulled harder.

As for railroading, I felt DA2 allowed a load of choice for a video game, but then completely ignored it at key important moments (which includes a significant portion of the later game). Sure, becoming a warden is also railroading, but, if you tried the Mage Origin Story for example, that 'railroading' felt perfectly normal - it got you the character out of a really awkward situation that was likely to yield death or imprisonment otherwise, and that's a short story. So the storytelling that does railroad can work - it didn't in DA2 precisely because on the one hand DA2 gave great freedom, and on the other it took it all away the moment you really needed it. Everything was watered down to 'I love you, you're great' or 'we fight now' - no middle roads, no compromises, no 'I'm bloody annoyed, but you'd better never do that again'. The same is true of locations - nothing is more jarring than someone telling you that you can't go to a place because there is nothing of relevance there, or that it's two different places that happen to look absolutely identical. It challenges the very core of one's belief in the world.

blacqout wrote...What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

For a person who came into this thread to challenge the OP, you sure aren't making your case well. So, in summary, you're right, everyone else is wrong, and your profound arrogance is entirely justified purely because of your opinion. Oddly enough I'd have had more time for the concept of aesthetics (despite my rebuttal above) had you done so in a polite manner.

What you like doesn't matter either, if your argument has any validity at all to it, but I am guessing basic logic is not your strong point from the above statement. Hint: since every person's opinion is equally valid on a matter that cannot be proven, if you dismiss another's as invalid, you are dismissing your own as equally invalid. Alternatively, please provide a mathematical proof that aesthetics is more important than practicality to all players of DA2.

#56
sphinxess

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Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have basically started making JRPGs with a meaningless choice mechanic.

It's not the most natural fit.

Irony being that while FFXIII is linear , DA2 is even more linear. FFXIII has Pulse.


i still don't get why i was railroaded into becoming a warden <_<


You were not. Events in the world made you a Warden, That's not the same thing. Railroading is when something is done with no real explanation beyond it needing to happen for the story.

Example putting Hawke in stasis for 3 years while events could deteriate to a point where you could only fail.


Where I come from, forcing my human noble into Grey Warden servitude is the very definition of railroading.  I was ready to give my computer a dozen alternate conversation options to keep me from leaving the castle with that bearded oaf.  I was ready to stand by my mother and father and fight, or go it alone outside the castle and try to find justice for my betrayed family.  Nope, only choice is to go with Duncan, join his silly organization, and stand by as most of the local chapter gets eradicated.  Railroading.  If most tabletop GM's tried something like that without previous buy-in from the players, he'd have a much emptier table for the next session.

Mind you, computer games don't have much choice but to railroad you--but that's still what they're doing.


Yes but thats open world - not really this form of RPG which requires some sort of story line- Skyrim will have it

#57
rubydog1

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Grammarye wrote...

To the above, some may say 'but it's a game' - to which my retort is 'so is Minecraft, but don't ask me to empathise with a cube or consider it to provide immersion'. Immersion is a lot of different things to different people, but I'd say top of the list is believing the world you are immersed in, or sufficient willing suspension of disbelief to allow equivalent. DA2 took what ME2 had stretched and pulled harder.


I find it easier to believe someone who is relatively poor in a game set in a medieval setting might not have another full set of clothes to wear, than to believe that someone can spend an entire game in a suit of metal armor without any kind of relief (which happens in both DA games).

Alistair probably could have killed darkspawn with his B.O. after being stuck in a can for the entire campaign.

#58
randName

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Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
Where I come from, forcing my human noble into Grey Warden servitude is the very definition of railroading.  I was ready to give my computer a dozen alternate conversation options to keep me from leaving the castle with that bearded oaf.  I was ready to stand by my mother and father and fight, or go it alone outside the castle and try to find justice for my betrayed family.  Nope, only choice is to go with Duncan, join his silly organization, and stand by as most of the local chapter gets eradicated.  Railroading.  If most tabletop GM's tried something like that without previous buy-in from the players, he'd have a much emptier table for the next session.

Mind you, computer games don't have much choice but to railroad you--but that's still what they're doing.


What they should have done is to let you try, and what ever you try you end up dying from, save perhaps one option that will give you a early game over, and have the game end before joining the wardens.
I remember one of the early endings in Disgaea were you can cut the head of a large pig daemon, in front of his young son; if you do the game simply ends and its over; 5% into the game. It's not a failure even, just a normal early ending.

More games should try this, and as you fight to save the castle from the invaders, you have to fight so many soldiers most would die, but if you manage to kill them all, you win; the game ends and you see a ending sequence go
"The noble daugheter of the Couslands, together with Cullen and a handful of men made a heroic stand and slew 596 Soldiers, all alone; such fright did this example set that Cousland became one of the most feared nobles in the land of Ferelden. Once the blight was stopped by two lone Wardens, one of them the bastard son of Merric the brave young templar named Alistair, he who fought the Arch-daemon and valiantly died slaying it, and peace settled; Couslands new head remembered the betrayal of her parents and put all those that worked again her to the torch"

Or for the noble Dwarven Warden.
"After turning down Duncan, the Kings 2nd eldest son walked the halls of his ancestors, slaying every darkspawn he could see, before finding himself surrounded by the Legion of the Dead. As one of them he died a 2nd time some time later."

Stupid examples, yet for me it would have been an interesting solution, and like noted before PST did dare to allow you to fail, most games do not; and solutions like these would obviously cause some confusion if done wrong for some, but would be very rewarding for others.




Or you tell Flemeth that you need no help, and then you continue down the road south, and get totally flooded by so many darkspawns you will die. Ending with Flemeth simply saying "Foolish child" ~

I would have liked the ~
"The young warden, not wanting to die for Ferelden left Flemeths hut to never be seen again; Alistair together with a ragtag of companions did their best to defeat the blight, but died in the depths of Orzammar. Only after that Ferlden fell to the blight did the neighbouring countries step in and together did they slay the Arch-daemon, but only countless life losts and years of fighting"




Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 05:21 .


#59
Grammarye

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rubydog1 wrote...I find it easier to believe someone who is relatively poor in a game set in a medieval setting might not have another full set of clothes to wear, than to believe that someone can spend an entire game in a suit of metal armor without any kind of relief (which happens in both DA games).

Alistair probably could have killed darkspawn with his B.O. after being stuck in a can for the entire campaign.

Ha :D Fair point. However, when I'm wandering around DA2 late game with 300 gold and I can't even buy some decent shoes for Merrill, something she laments about every other soundbite, that tends to be more obvious, at least to me.

Good point though, you'd think by now going to the toilet would at least vaguely acknowledged in some way, like 'boy I hope someone is around to get me out of this armour when I next need a leak' - which is exactly what was typically involved (though at least this time around the sewers were generally treated as someplace foul, rather than 'hey another dungeon we can stick you in'). I can see it now - fans demand realistic romance, and acknowledgement of bodily functions..

Modifié par Grammarye, 05 avril 2011 - 05:24 .


#60
dfstone

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I found having to maintain your companions' armor to be tedious. I was glad they got rid of it in ME2 and even more glad its gone in DA2. Besides it made no sense. You want your companions to be more developed as a character while at the same time they can't even change their own clothes without your approval. Seemed stupid to me.

#61
randName

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dfstone wrote...

I found having to maintain your companions' armor to be tedious. I was glad they got rid of it in ME2 and even more glad its gone in DA2. Besides it made no sense. You want your companions to be more developed as a character while at the same time they can't even change their own clothes without your approval. Seemed stupid to me.


It's equally stupid that they can't change the armour to suit the situation, or the need of the party.

I think the best solution would be to give them civil clothing, a set that can be generic, that they use at home, and then a standard upgradedable companion gear, that depending on the type of character we are talking about can be removed if you want to, perhaps even by convincing them through dialogue.

The idea that you would refuse to change your clothing/armour if a friend asked you is awkward to say the least, and they have no problems with you changing their attributes or abilities, how they fight in combat, nor by being puppetered by you, but they can't change their clothing?

& in ME2 you are their commander, its not really like its ever up to them what they wear in a miltiary operation.

& if a friend of mine refused to adapt in a game like EVE, he gets thrown out, in a game, but in what is supposed to be a gang fighting for their lives, they are going to stand up for their fashion sense and refuse? 

#62
blacqout

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[quote]xkg wrote...

[/quote]
blacqout wrote...
What you like doesn't really matter. Fenris has an aesthetic identity, and BioWare shouldn't compromise it by pandering to people like you.

I dislike Aveline's outfit, but i love that she has her own aesthetic identity. It's as much a part of her character as her iron will.
[/quote]

oh man i cant belive it
you are calling someone racist while being one of the biggest ignorant ass i have ever seen
yes it doesnt metter what other wants as long as you have been given what you want
why are you even here if you dont care about ohter people opinions ... or maybe you do only if they do like same things as you

[/quote]

Firstly, there is no need for the unpleasant language. You may not like my opinion, but at least have the decorum to disagree without resorting to petty insults.

But pretty much. I'm passionate about BioWare continuing the trend they started with ME2, and giving all companions a distinct aesthetic identity. I don't care about compromise; i care about making it known that many players like the iconic approach, and that BioWare should not pander to the practicality zealots.

If they have that difficult-a-time suspending disbelief, fantasy probably isn't for them anyway.

And i'm not sure what Ieldra's negative comments towards Russians has to do with anything.

#63
randName

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blacqout wrote...


I wrote nothing about russians; and if you don't want any argument, your opinion being king, then don't argue, you will only look the fool, like you do now.

It's good that you at least admit that you had nothing to say in this disussion and we can now saftely ignore anything you ever say ~ such admissions are welcome and I thank you for it.

#64
blacqout

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randName wrote...

I wrote nothing about russians; and if you don't want any argument, your opinion being king, then don't argue, you will only look the fool, like you do now.

It's good that you at least admit that you had nothing to say in this disussion and we can now saftely ignore anything you ever say ~ such admissions are welcome and I thank you for it.


You kind of look like a fool because you continually misuse the semicolon.

"I wrote nothing about russians; and if you don't..."

Is horribly incorrect;  you need to drop the coordinating conjunction.  You will appear smarter if you learn how to properly use punctuation marks and refrain from petty insults.

As far as my argument goes: I like the direction that BioWare are going in. I've given my reason (essentially that it looks cooler) and all you can do in return is call me names. Bravo.

Modifié par blacqout, 05 avril 2011 - 05:59 .


#65
xkg

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blacqout wrote...

Firstly, there is no need for the unpleasant language. You may not like my opinion, but at least have the decorum to disagree without resorting to petty insults.

...


yes i must admit im fast to set on fire but even faster to chill off
sorry for that "being ass" part
so i will rewrite my previous post here with small corection :

oh man i cant belive it
you are calling someone racist while being one of the biggest ignorant ass i have ever seen yourself
yes it doesnt metter what other wants as long as you have been given what you want
why are you even here if you dont care about ohter people opinions ... or maybe you do only if they do like same things as you

#66
blacqout

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xkg wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Firstly, there is no need for the unpleasant language. You may not like my opinion, but at least have the decorum to disagree without resorting to petty insults.

...


yes i must admit im fast to set on fire but even faster to chill off
sorry for that "being ass" part
so i will rewrite my previous post here with small corection :

oh man i cant belive it
you are calling someone racist while being one of the biggest ignorant ass i have ever seen yourself
yes it doesnt metter what other wants as long as you have been given what you want
why are you even here if you dont care about ohter people opinions ... or maybe you do only if they do like same things as you




Well, thank you for at least being civil enough to realise that this kind of language isn't necessary.

I'm calling Ieldra a racist because he made derogatory remarks about me based on my country of birth. I'm sure i could find a link if anyone is that interested.

And again, yes. It doesn't matter to me whether other fans get what they want as long as i get what i want. Fortunately, what i want makes for a better game, so those without strong opinions will benefit if what i want comes to pass.

#67
abaris

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dfstone wrote...

I found having to maintain your companions' armor to be tedious. I was glad they got rid of it in ME2 and even more glad its gone in DA2. Besides it made no sense. You want your companions to be more developed as a character while at the same time they can't even change their own clothes without your approval. Seemed stupid to me.


That's where tastes differ. Mind you, I had less of a problem with not being able to change companions armor in ME2. But in a fantasy game, I'm always fond of the looting and of eqipping my fellows with new shiny things.

It may hurt the aesthetic feelings of the developers, but for me its an integral part of fantasy games. I would have hated it, if Leiliana for example would have been stuck in her chantry robes throughout DAO. And it was rather fun to equip Alistair and Sten with the heaviest stuff I could find.

#68
Barefoot Warrior

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Well done,Ieldra2, I think your post was very objective and I agree with you. But to bring up one point that may have been overlooked. I too was very disappointed with DA2 and like many others, compared it to DAO (and other games), for many reasons.

But why is this happening?

If I understand correctly, at the time ME1 and DAO were produced, BioWare was either by itself or was bought by another producer(?). Then was sold to EA? I'm still not clear on this so feel free to correct me on this. If so, then at that time BioWare presumably had the time to make those games and maintain a standard of quality that DA2 sadly lacks. It is pretty much commonly accepted now that DA2 was a 'rushed' project and it shows. Many point the finger at BioWare for this debacle. I look at the suits at EA instead. Since I used to work with 'suits' in my working carreer I am all to familiar with the way they think. It is the major reason why I left and am now working on my own. My point is, too often they (the suits) will just flat tell you, 'I don't want to hear it, just get it done!'...that kind of thing. Surely I am not the only one that has worked in this kind of environment. My gut feeling is, That EA is simply looking at BioWare as a resource for cash, a 'cash cow' if you wish. BioWare produces 'product' and nothing more and BioWare itself is nothing more then a resource and in time will probably be disposed of. There are a lot of rumors about folks leaving BioWare for various reasons which I will not go into, but it does make one wonder what they knew and what is going on. As we all know, these games are complicated and it takes time, a lot of time to get it right. Designing, storyline, modeling, textures, coding, etc and I for one do appreciate the work that goes into a game be it DA2 or others, bad or not.

Hence, the 'streamlined' games that are now coming out. I have said in some of my responses to other posts and I'll say it again. 'Quality takes time', and as we all know, 'Time is money!' It is all to obvious that someone thinks the money is more important, and I wonder who that is. I fear that we will see much more of this. Quality, apparently, no longer matters and I fear that 'epic' games will be few and far between.

I hope I didn't get to far off topic, but that's my thoughts on the subject. Thanks to the op for the post, good reading.

#69
the_one_54321

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I found the OPs post to be mostly driven by bias and lacking in objectivity. Though the initial observations were mostly accurate, the conclusions reached were clearly based on personal preference. Which is fine, except that it seemed an attempt at objectivity was being made.

Although I mostly agree with how the OP feels I cannot support the OP in the purpose of this thread.

#70
abaris

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Although I mostly agree with how the OP feels I cannot support the OP in the purpose of this thread.


You're training for a career in politics? :D

#71
the_one_54321

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abaris wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Although I mostly agree with how the OP feels I cannot support the OP in the purpose of this thread.

You're training for a career in politics? :D

Quite the opposite, actually. I'm deliberately speaking against partisan policy! :P

#72
rubydog1

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Grammarye wrote...

Good point though, you'd think by now going to the toilet would at least vaguely acknowledged in some way, like 'boy I hope someone is around to get me out of this armour when I next need a leak' - which is exactly what was typically involved (though at least this time around the sewers were generally treated as someplace foul, rather than 'hey another dungeon we can stick you in'). I can see it now - fans demand realistic romance, and acknowledgement of bodily functions.


That grate in the floor in the little room off Merrill's bedroom is just the first step in the series' scatological role-playing evolution!

"Make a constitution check or your PC has come down with 'Andraste's Revenge.' The stench is overpowering. All companion rivalry ratings +15."

#73
randName

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Barefoot Warrior wrote...

Well done,Ieldra2, I think your post was very objective and I agree with you. But to bring up one point that may have been overlooked. I too was very disappointed with DA2 and like many others, compared it to DAO (and other games), for many reasons.

But why is this happening?

If I understand correctly, at the time ME1 and DAO were produced, BioWare was either by itself or was bought by another producer(?). Then was sold to EA? I'm still not clear on this so feel free to correct me on this. If so, then at that time BioWare presumably had the time to make those games and maintain a standard of quality that DA2 sadly lacks. It is pretty much commonly accepted now that DA2 was a 'rushed' project and it shows. Many point the finger at BioWare for this debacle. I look at the suits at EA instead. Since I used to work with 'suits' in my working carreer I am all to familiar with the way they think. It is the major reason why I left and am now working on my own. My point is, too often they (the suits) will just flat tell you, 'I don't want to hear it, just get it done!'...that kind of thing. Surely I am not the only one that has worked in this kind of environment. My gut feeling is, That EA is simply looking at BioWare as a resource for cash, a 'cash cow' if you wish. BioWare produces 'product' and nothing more and BioWare itself is nothing more then a resource and in time will probably be disposed of. There are a lot of rumors about folks leaving BioWare for various reasons which I will not go into, but it does make one wonder what they knew and what is going on. As we all know, these games are complicated and it takes time, a lot of time to get it right. Designing, storyline, modeling, textures, coding, etc and I for one do appreciate the work that goes into a game be it DA2 or others, bad or not.

Hence, the 'streamlined' games that are now coming out. I have said in some of my responses to other posts and I'll say it again. 'Quality takes time', and as we all know, 'Time is money!' It is all to obvious that someone thinks the money is more important, and I wonder who that is. I fear that we will see much more of this. Quality, apparently, no longer matters and I fear that 'epic' games will be few and far between.

I hope I didn't get to far off topic, but that's my thoughts on the subject. Thanks to the op for the post, good reading.


I think they were on their own, but working against Microsoft before EA (EA paid Microsoft for the Mass Effect IP if I remember correctly).

& EA can be lax with studios, at least it felt like that at points with DICE, but yes, it does seem that if they are to allow a product like Mirrors Edge you must first do 3-4 iterations of the standard franchise they bought you for. But that's just how it looks for me. & I would due to this, rather clueless guess, fell that its' the main reason for the rush to publish DA2 in the current state to ride the wave of DA:O, a game that sold well while being very different than DA2, with little other reason for rushing it so.

I do believe that if they had given DA2 time, with the changes they did to the combat and everything else so many of us are negative to, and some like, and had the time to really focus of the game it would have been a good, or even a great game, maybe not for me, but still.

Modifié par randName, 05 avril 2011 - 06:19 .


#74
randName

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the_one_54321 wrote...

I found the OPs post to be mostly driven by bias and lacking in objectivity. Though the initial observations were mostly accurate, the conclusions reached were clearly based on personal preference. Which is fine, except that it seemed an attempt at objectivity was being made.

Although I mostly agree with how the OP feels I cannot support the OP in the purpose of this thread.


It's a bit of a predicament, trying to be objective when it comes to subjective matters of taste, and then being accused for trying ~

That said I approve of this post.

#75
the_one_54321

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randName wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I found the OPs post to be mostly driven by bias and lacking in objectivity. Though the initial observations were mostly accurate, the conclusions reached were clearly based on personal preference. Which is fine, except that it seemed an attempt at objectivity was being made.

Although I mostly agree with how the OP feels I cannot support the OP in the purpose of this thread.

It's a bit of a predicament, trying to be objective when it comes to subjective matters of taste, and then being accused for trying ~

That said I approve of this post.

A genuine attempt was made and I suppose that deserves some credit. The problem is that when an attempt at objectivity is made and then failed at, it tends to lend the argument the appearance of being flawed or incorrect.

As I believe there are some points made in the OP that are worth supporting, I find it unfortunate that they are thus marred by the flaws in the rest of the post. Thus, I cannot support the post.