207 réponses à ce sujet

[Maleficent]

The end, nah don't be so pessimistic,Skyrim and Witcher 2 still to come.

[Maleficent]

Yeah but here's a thing as well I was more wrapped in my Hawke than my Warden,different peaches for different trees.

[randName]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

What I don't understand is DAO was a hit! It won several awards and overall praise from the majority of people who bought it and critics alike. Does this sound like a major call for change? I don't buy this whole "change" argument, not for a single second.

words

But, with all opinions, my take is completely subjective. Still, I own my feelings and opinions. Challenges to persuade me to see things differently are futile. I'm very stubborn. Disagree if you must. This is my take on the whole "change" rhetoric.

I Agree fully, I don't get why they needed to do what they did with DA:O; as I understand it DA:O have sold as much, if not more than ME1 or ME2; and yet they felt the need to move it more towards ME2?

It was uncalled for, and there were plenty of other improvements they could have done with DA that wasn't to make it an action game.

Or I would have preferred it if they pushed DA further into cRPG territory and allowed more options
Let us skip any, or most of the regions in DA:O I believe more people would have finished it; OR you don't like Orzimar? Skip it, you don't care for the mages and templars? skip the circle; you don't care for this fight? allow your character to dazzle the crowd with diplomacy and get by it; allow the character to don the flags of the enemy to waltz right on by (as they did in one small part of DA:O), lets us talk to the Dwarf that will give us the gold we need early on, as to allow us to skip large parts of what we don't want to play.
Want to make armours and items easier to handle? add a smith/armourer that will help you and your companions through an automated process that will keep everyone updated with the press of a button; but make it optional so that all us OCD players can mutch and match in our delight.
Allow us to make peace with the robbers and the bandits on our streets, as to never having to fight them again, allow us to make it so that the guards patrol areas with the same effect.


& make most of the heavier combat or dialogue areas optional, but all with benefits if you do all sidequests, and roll through all the dialogue and fights.

& the dream I have would be to see DA3 do what FO1 and FONV did, letting us complete the game without killing anyone (directly), all optional anyways (just don't follow their way of including bugs around each corner).

[cindercatz]

I think that play and quit number is probably a misunderstanding of the raw data from all those players trying out the different origins, anticipating single playthroughs. I know that happened. I almost never play a game through twice, with BioWare's games an exception, usually getting a second run months after the first to try out a very different character and story path. DA:O is the first and only game I've played through five times, planning six, but that's spread out over 2+ years. At any given time, I'm probably rotating between three and five games, with another 5-10 unfinished on reserve.

That's why I hate the gameplay data mining they do now. Their numbers are lying to them.

[Dragoonlordz]

MrTijger wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

It isn't what you say, it's how you say it. "Senior people" translates in the context of your opinion to you are old and outdated. Saying the didn't make the game for me sounds like I'm demanding special treatment or something along those lines. Just thought I'd point that out to you.

WTF? I was referring to the senior people in Bioware. I'm fíng 46, I'm probably older than 99% of staff there!

I'm sorry but you are completely and utterly reading things into what I say that simply are not there, please, stop, I didnt suggest that you should feel entitled, I even stated it wasnt meant in a negative way, I was pointing to the fact that I thought Bioware figured they'd had you (as in people that loved DAO, which includes me) already happy and that the redesign was supposed to make both you and the others happy.

Than act it.

The fact is just because someone says something doesn't make it true not in interviews or press releases. On the subject of change, you cannot make change for the sake of change out of fear somewhere down the line it may or may not stagnate. You make changes when something goes wrong or downhill which cannot be done with the first title in a series, one that was very successfull because there can be no sign of decline.

The appealing to masses doesn't work plain and simple. If you wish to bring in a crowd that enjoys FPS unless you make an FPS your not going to bring them in. Bioware have always made RPGs and have been successfull at it when they start branching out into the Action or FPS crowd that is a worrying sign of decline of what they are best at (generalisation) which is a bad thing for a fanbase built on another genre or even in the case of change to a series which targetted one group from the offset.

I point to the example of X-Com series which has now changes from TBS to FPS, also Front Mission again TBS changed to Action. With X-Com we have yet to see what will happen but the fans are very upset by this because if a series is built on a fanbase of one thing then switches to something else out of fear ot whims it always has a bad effect on the series and the sales. Front Mission suffered as fact because of this "broaden the playerbase idiology" and the sales plummeted.

Change isn't always good and change specifically out of fear of something that hasn't happened yet (which is impossible to say it did on DAO because it was the only title in the series at that point) is by far the worst thing a developer can do.

If you want to improve on something you take baby steps, if you go ahead and change it as opposed to improve it's doomed to fail. The only reason DA2 even had great sales at the start is because it suckered in the fans of DAO using pre-orders and reputation and fanbase of the first. If this was a single title not riding on the back of DAO it's sales would be half or less than it turned it is now. If anyone disagree's with that statement and thinks even if it wasn't called Dragon Age 2 it would have the success (aka the current sales figures) as a standalone game based on it's own quality then (I think) they are being a bit nieve. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 avril 2011 - 01:48 .

[Ronin2006]

MrTijger wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

WTF? I was referring to the senior people in Bioware. I'm fíng 46, I'm probably older than 99% of staff there!

Wow, I had you pegged at about 14!

Indeed, and if you're wrong about something that simple then perhaps you're wrong about a lot more

You know old man, I actually came to that conclusion from the way you carried yourself on this forum.  Swearing at others who don't share your opinions, constantly calling others "trolls" when indeed that appears to be what you are, and the utterly contemptible way that you try to destroy any thread that you disagree with.  You see, I use logic and reasoning to draw such conclusions, unlike you.  Your behaviour I originally attributed to a possible lack of age, but now I can see there was always a much more obvious reason.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Andropause

At least your wife still loves you....

Modifié par Ronin2006, 05 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[MrTijger]

cindercatz wrote...

I think that play and quit number is probably a misunderstanding of the raw data from all those players trying out the different origins, anticipating single playthroughs. I know that happened. I almost never play a game through twice, with BioWare's games an exception, usually getting a second run months after the first to try out a very different character and story path. DA:O is the first and only game I've played through five times, planning six, but that's spread out over 2+ years. At any given time, I'm probably rotating between three and five games, with another 5-10 unfinished on reserve.

That's why I hate the gameplay data mining they do now. Their numbers are lying to them.

I think thats quite possible, secondly, I think that perhaps they focused their attention on it too much.

I can see how it happens, here's a great game, people love it, reviewers love it and then you get data that says "People dont play past point X", so everyone gets a shock "Whoa, we screwed up! we gotta fix that". Business tend to focus on fixing what goes wrong (or perceived as wrong) instead of what goes right.

[ms_sunlight]

cindercatz wrote...

I think that play and quit number is probably a misunderstanding of the raw data from all those players trying out the different origins, anticipating single playthroughs. I know that happened. I almost never play a game through twice, with BioWare's games an exception, usually getting a second run months after the first to try out a very different character and story path. DA:O is the first and only game I've played through five times, planning six, but that's spread out over 2+ years. At any given time, I'm probably rotating between three and five games, with another 5-10 unfinished on reserve.

That's why I hate the gameplay data mining they do now. Their numbers are lying to them.

I doubt that somehow, given that the game reports what you do and those reports are tied to a single copy of the game.  I do imagine that there were a number of people who bought the game but didn't stay the course - traditional crpgs are a peculiar kind of taste.

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I point to the example of X-Com series which has now changes from TBS to FPS, also Front Mission again TBS changed to Action. With X-Com we have yet to see what will happen but the fans are very upset by this because if a series is built on a fanbase of one thing then switches to something else out of fear ot whims it always has a bad effect on the series and the sales. Front Mission suffered as fact because of this "broaden the playerbase idiology" and the sales plummeted.

X-com Apocalype was Real Time with pause I thought the others got pulled ? If that's not the case could you link pls ?Always one of the games series I found interesting.
It's not the first front mission action game. There are quite a few FMs, numbers just relate to outside of Japan releases.

[Dragoonlordz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I point to the example of X-Com series which has now changes from TBS to FPS, also Front Mission again TBS changed to Action. With X-Com we have yet to see what will happen but the fans are very upset by this because if a series is built on a fanbase of one thing then switches to something else out of fear ot whims it always has a bad effect on the series and the sales. Front Mission suffered as fact because of this "broaden the playerbase idiology" and the sales plummeted.

X-com Apocalype was Real Time with pause I thought the others got pulled ? If that's not the case could you link pls ?Always one of the games series I found interesting.
It's not the first front mission action game. There are quite a few FMs, numbers just relate to outside of Japan releases.

X-Com apoc was turn based with the option of doing real time mode using button added to the game same with Aftershock, Afterlight and Aftermath, X-Com Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep were TBS only. They also tried branching out a developers favorite spin words "broaden the playerbase" and made Interceptor (Flight sim space shooter) again doomed to fail which is fact the sales dropped vastly.

When any developer uses the term "broaden" or "bring in" through history of gaming this more often than not by a long way has reflected badly in sales. There have been exception but they are few and far between.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[cindercatz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

Mostly agreed with djnsnyc here. You improve with iteration. You don't wholesale abandon a winning formula, which is not far from what happened with DA2.

And who says there's no original movies anymore? You just have to know where to look.

Lastly, corporatization is bad. If marketing is making your decisions, if you find yourself chasing demographics, you're doing it wrong. ;-)

Love 'em or hate them this is what almost all of the succesful IPs do.

If I analogise it to poker. If you have a good hand you may change a card or two in and hope you get something better. But changing 4 cards is a real desperation move. And almost nonsensical if you already have a good hand.

Very nice analogy. Spot on. ;-)

[Maleficent]

BUT but but the game ''Needed to be changed'' for consoles,go and play Origns on 360 and then Da2 and see the difference in party control sheesh it's like chalk and cheese one is clunky the other is smooth.Now that's as far combat is concerned.Appealing to masses with good marketing does work when the numbers add up,do I like it ,not really,but I don't care if 1% percent of COD players pick up and play Dragon Age ,hell I don't even care if 100 or 5million buy a game.I buy one copy and I am but one player.

I could pick origins apart easily with a blunt knife,both games have good,bad,terrible and excellent features.For Da3 do you mix the two? do you look at the Da2 figures over a certain period of time and go with that.Personally let David Gaider and his team breath and let him lead it,give the writers and artists time to build it together first.There are so many ways to go story wise ,but building quality should be the main focus and let all those choices that effect the game come out more prominently again.A good sign of how things will go will be in ME3 ,that really could be the thing that either kills DA or gives hope.

Da2 is a really good game but it does miss some ''X'' factor,however there are some really good aspects in there.As I said Origins had it's problems to but it's strength lay in the dark mood,tone and the affecting choices.

Oh and buy out obsidian just for Chris and Feargus.

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
X-Com apoc was turn based with the option of doing real time using button added to the game same with Aftershock, Afterlight and Aftermath, X-Com Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep were TBS only. They also tried branching out a developers favorite spin words "broaden the playerbase" and made Interceptor (Flight sim space shooter) again doomed to fail which is fact the sales dropped vastly.

I still have them at home somewhere played them a couple of years late. But Strategy games age remarkably well I find. They really should give them a go on a handheld I'd be overjoyed with a PSP of DS version. EU and TFTD that is, not so much the others...

I did play something sort of similiar on the Gameboy a while back. Can't remember the name, might have been UFO:Tactics.

On another note I've found my DS3 character

http://uk.ign.com/vi...?objectid=14214

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Maleficent]

Enemy unknown was the only xcom I played on the ps one lol good game though,very different to anything else on the console at the time.

[cindercatz]

ms_sunlight wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

I think that play and quit number is probably a misunderstanding of the raw data from all those players trying out the different origins, anticipating single playthroughs. I know that happened. I almost never play a game through twice, with BioWare's games an exception, usually getting a second run months after the first to try out a very different character and story path. DA:O is the first and only game I've played through five times, planning six, but that's spread out over 2+ years. At any given time, I'm probably rotating between three and five games, with another 5-10 unfinished on reserve.

That's why I hate the gameplay data mining they do now. Their numbers are lying to them.

I doubt that somehow, given that the game reports what you do and those reports are tied to a single copy of the game.  I do imagine that there were a number of people who bought the game but didn't stay the course - traditional crpgs are a peculiar kind of taste.

You have to think about when those decisions were made, how old that data is he's referring to. I'm sure there really are a number of people who tried it and quit, always are, but I bet that number is inflated. That's all I'm saying.

[Dragoonlordz]

Maleficent wrote...

BUT but but the game ''Needed to be changed'' for consoles,go and play Origns on 360 and then Da2 and see the difference in party control sheesh it's like chalk and cheese one is clunky the other is smooth.Now that's as far combat is concerned.Appealing to masses with good marketing does work when the numbers add up,do I like it ,not really,but I don't care if 1% percent of COD players pick up and play Dragon Age ,hell I don't even care if 100 or 5million buy a game.I buy one copy and I am but one player.

I could pick origins apart easily with a blunt knife,both games have good,bad,terrible and excellent features.For Da3 do you mix the two? do you look at the Da2 figures over a certain period of time and go with that.Personally let David Gaider and his team breath and let him lead it,give the writers and artists time to build it together first.There are so many ways to go story wise ,but building quality should be the main focus and let all those choices that effect the game come out more prominently again.A good sign of how things will go will be in ME3 ,that really could be the thing that either kills DA or gives hope.

Da2 is a really good game but it does miss some ''X'' factor,however there are some really good aspects in there.As I said Origins had it's problems to but it's strength lay in the dark mood,tone and the affecting choices.

Oh and buy out obsidian just for Chris and Feargus.

Like I said, the only reason DA2 even had great sales at the start is because it suckered in the fans of DAO using pre-orders and reputation and fanbase of the first. If this was a single standalone title not riding on the back of DAO it's sales would be half or much less than it turned it is now. If anyone thinks if it wasn't called Dragon Age 2 it would have the even half the sales it does now as a standalone game based on it's own quality then (I think) they are being a bit nieve. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 avril 2011 - 02:06 .

[Maleficent]

Have any of you played the Dungeon Siege games?Seems to be more of a crawler,III could be interesting with Obsidian on the case,maybe a new franchise to check out.

[Rockpopple]

Very interesting review. It had some very sharp criticisms but at the same time saw fit to highlight what went very right with Dragon Age II, unlike a lot of critical reviews I've seen. Some people are just hell-bent on thinking DA II was a failure of a game, when the truth is far from that... but whatever. Those are their opinions. The game stands on its own.

[Dragoonlordz]

As for the review as soon as it said..

Dragon Age 2 dispenses with that and lets you play through the story of Hawke as he must take a personal journey of his own and of course save the world as well.

I thought have you even played it...

By making Hawke a character with a voice of his own and a back story that is crafted before you even begin playing the game you feel a greater sense of attachment to Hawke as you progress through the game.  

You cannot gain more attachment to a premade character when miss out on what made him who he is, that is a logic failure to me. It's akin to here's a picture of some random guy in a crowd.. Doesn't that make you feel more attached to him?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 avril 2011 - 02:17 .

[Rockpopple]

Hawke didn't save the world, just his own world. So the writer used a rhetorical flourish. They do that sometimes, writers.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

150 people will miss the dull old RPG mechanics. They will make 10,000 posts a day.

[Maleficent]

Well Hawke will save the world eventually along with the warden,either hero or commander.Anyone else get the feeling the Warden and Hawke are a setup for 3,rise the Flemeth to end the dragon age with a ''Bang''.

[MrTijger]

Maleficent wrote...

Have any of you played the Dungeon Siege games?Seems to be more of a crawler,III could be interesting with Obsidian on the case,maybe a new franchise to check out.

Yeah...I'm not a big Obsidian fan tbh, I still have nightmares of KOTOR 2 and I know that wasnt entirely their fault but NWN2? Fallout NV? The word bug is rather predominant.
I played the first DS, kinda liked it but wasnt blown away, havent played 2 or 3 (which isnt out yet on PC anyway)

[AkiKishi]

MrTijger wrote...
Yeah...I'm not a big Obsidian fan tbh, I still have nightmares of KOTOR 2 and I know that wasnt entirely their fault but NWN2? Fallout NV? The word bug is rather predominant.
I played the first DS, kinda liked it but wasnt blown away, havent played 2 or 3 (which isnt out yet on PC anyway)

I love irony.

Maleficent wrote...

Have any of you played the Dungeon Siege games?Seems to be more of a crawler,III could be interesting with Obsidian on the case,maybe a new franchise to check out.

Yes. I look forward to how Obsidian deals with DS3, so far looking good. My posts in this thread contain some links to DS3 gameplay and characters.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 avril 2011 - 02:28 .

[MrTijger]

BobSmith101 wrote...

MrTijger wrote...
Yeah...I'm not a big Obsidian fan tbh, I still have nightmares of KOTOR 2 and I know that wasnt entirely their fault but NWN2? Fallout NV? The word bug is rather predominant.
I played the first DS, kinda liked it but wasnt blown away, havent played 2 or 3 (which isnt out yet on PC anyway)

I love irony.

Well, you dont hear me saying DA 2 doesnt have any, trust me, I think the only one I havent encountered is the thumbs up one. My problem with Obsidian is the fixing of said bugs more than anything else.