207 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubya75]

Klimy wrote...

The threads name is incorrect, or I disagree. Bioware is well respected company, and many will try to copy what Bioware does. But what OP called "RPG genre of old" can not die just because of Dragon Age 2.
There are lot's companies that still produce good "hardcore" RPGs. It's just happens so that their budget or skills are not enough to make insane graphics and professional VO. But on the other hand their price tag is under 30 Euros, so no one can complain.

Dragon Age 2 brought something new. And aside of copy-paste and cliff hanger, it has lot's of good innovations and bright ideas. It works fine for role playing, it's just feels like we start to forget what RPG abbreviation stands for.

As about old school hardcore things, then Dragon Age 2 can't do anything about it.

OP only quoted review title as the thread title. He is only the messanger...don't shoot the messanger. 

Modifié par Dubya75, 06 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[elearon1]

 [riding down the beach in the last scene] "Oh my God... I'm back. I'm home. All the time it was... we finally really did it. [screaming] YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! GODDAMN YOU ALL TO HELL! (camera pans to reveal the half-destroyed Baldur's Gate Series sticking out of the sand)*

*(quote taken from "Planet of the Apes" 1968; modified for humor)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seriously, though, this argument is never ending.  The peole who are certain their "one, pure truth" about the nature of rpgs is real will never be convinced otherwise, and the people who are willing to keep an open mind and not limit their definitions will never buy into the charge that "rpgs must be X,Y, and Z!"

Hell, with my experience and history in the field - which I have discussed elsewhere and see no value in repeating yet again - I as about as close to an Expert on what makes up an rpg as you'll get on these forums, yet for all that I've still been unable to convince anyone they were wrong. (or limited, or misinformed, etc.)

So, to save myself I headache I stopped trying to argue the point ... people will believe what they want to and you only wear your tongue out trying to convince them otherwise.

[elearon1]

By the way, I did a lot of roleplaying in my second playthrough of DA2.

Used the "Mirror of Transformation" to change my character's hairstyle to reflect her moods.

In act 2 I gave her a tattoo as a memorial for a lost companion, (won't mention who, no spoilers here) and dulled her complexion a bit to show she'd lost that "youthful glow".

I romanced Isabela, but always felt she was holding back on me and, in fact, that need for stability led me to try romancing Avaline. (and if you've tried, you know how that ends)

I respected the Qunari and regretted how act 2 ended - especially when I was forced into a certain fight because I wouldn't betray a close friend - and took little pride in being called "Champion" after.

After act 2 I used the mirror to change my nose, so it would appear it had been broken during that big fight at the end. (gave myself a different nose and changed the proportions on it to create the illusion)

Come act 3 I darkened her hair a shade to suggest it had lost some of its luster from stress and age over the years, and continue to play with the styles to suit her moods.

Because I had always been fascinated by Anders (and as kind of a means to get back at Isabela) I romanced and slept with him, but realized afterwords it would lead nowhere, so broke it off - which caused him to resent me and as such I stopped taking him on adventures after that.

Ultimately, though I was still pursuing Isabela - who was still running away from commitment - I slept with Merrill and when she professed her love I asked her to move in ... more because I was lonely and wanted someone close than a belief that we were actually meant for one another.

Despite the fact that I had loved my sister, and still blamed myself for her loss, I came to distrust most mages (which certainly contributed to the fact that Merrill ended up with maxed rivalry) and after the betrayal near the end of act 3 - not only a betrayal to the city, but a *personal* betrayal as well - I killed the betrayer and left him for dead.

I'm not surprised Hawke eventually left the city, there was too much pain there and if a war was coming, she didn't know how or if she wanted anything to do with it ... but, somehow, she knew the fate of Kirkwall and the Free Marches would drag her back.

Modifié par elearon1, 06 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Dubya75]

elearon1 wrote...

By the way, I did a lot of roleplaying in my second playthrough of DA2.

Used the "Mirror of Transformation" to change my character's hairstyle to reflect her moods.

In act 2 I gave her a tattoo as a memorial for a lost companion, (won't mention who, no spoilers here) and dulled her complexion a bit to show she'd lost that "youthful glow".

I romanced Isabela, but always felt she was holding back on me and, in fact, that need for stability led me to try romancing Avaline. (and if you've tried, you know how that ends)

I respected the Qunari and regretted how act 2 ended - especially when I was forced into a certain fight because I wouldn't betray a close friend - and took little pride in being called "Champion" after.

After act 2 I used the mirror to change my nose, so it would appear it had been broken during that big fight at the end. (gave myself a different nose and changed the proportions on it to create the illusion)

Come act 3 I darkened her hair a shade to suggest it had lost some of its luster from stress and age over the years, and continue to play with the styles to suit her moods.

Because I had always been fascinated by Anders (and as kind of a means to get back at Isabela) I romanced and slept with him, but realized afterwords it would lead nowhere, so broke it off - which caused him to resent me and as such I stopped taking him on adventures after that.

Ultimately, though I was still pursuing Isabela - who was still running away from commitment - I slept with Merrill and when she professed her love I asked her to move in ... more because I was lonely and wanted someone close than a belief that we were actually meant for one another.

Despite the fact that I had loved my sister, and still blamed myself for her loss, I came to distrust most mages (which certainly contributed to the fact that Merrill ended up with maxed rivalry) and after the betrayal near the end of act 3 - not only a betrayal to the city, but a *personal* betrayal as well - I killed the betrayer and left him for dead.

I'm not surprised Hawke eventually left the city, there was too much pain there and if a war was coming, she didn't know how or if she wanted anything to do with it ... but, somehow, she knew the fate of Kirkwall and the Free Marches would drag her back.

Wow, you make me want to buy the game AGAIN! 

[AkiKishi]

elearon1 wrote...

By the way, I did a lot of roleplaying in my second playthrough of DA2.

Used the "Mirror of Transformation" to change my character's hairstyle to reflect her moods.

In act 2 I gave her a tattoo as a memorial for a lost companion, (won't mention who, no spoilers here) and dulled her complexion a bit to show she'd lost that "youthful glow".

I romanced Isabela, but always felt she was holding back on me and, in fact, that need for stability led me to try romancing Avaline. (and if you've tried, you know how that ends)

I respected the Qunari and regretted how act 2 ended - especially when I was forced into a certain fight because I wouldn't betray a close friend - and took little pride in being called "Champion" after.

After act 2 I used the mirror to change my nose, so it would appear it had been broken during that big fight at the end. (gave myself a different nose and changed the proportions on it to create the illusion)

Come act 3 I darkened her hair a shade to suggest it had lost some of its luster from stress and age over the years, and continue to play with the styles to suit her moods.

Because I had always been fascinated by Anders (and as kind of a means to get back at Isabela) I romanced and slept with him, but realized afterwords it would lead nowhere, so broke it off - which caused him to resent me and as such I stopped taking him on adventures after that.

Ultimately, though I was still pursuing Isabela - who was still running away from commitment - I slept with Merrill and when she professed her love I asked her to move in ... more because I was lonely and wanted someone close than a belief that we were actually meant for one another.

Despite the fact that I had loved my sister, and still blamed myself for her loss, I came to distrust most mages (which certainly contributed to the fact that Merrill ended up with maxed rivalry) and after the betrayal near the end of act 3 - not only a betrayal to the city, but a *personal* betrayal as well - I killed the betrayer and left him for dead.

I'm not surprised Hawke eventually left the city, there was too much pain there and if a war was coming, she didn't know how or if she wanted anything to do with it ... but, somehow, she knew the fate of Kirkwall and the Free Marches would drag her back.

Which is fine if you are happy being a passive sort of character.

[Sidney]

elearon1 wrote...

Seriously, though, this argument is never ending.  The peole who are certain their "one, pure truth" about the nature of rpgs is real will never be convinced otherwise, and the people who are willing to keep an open mind and not limit their definitions will never buy into the charge that "rpgs must be X,Y, and Z!"

...and yet so many "old" RPG's aren't X,Y and Z like people claim. Usually the "rpgs must be X,Y, and Z!" can be borken down to "rpgs must be BG2" and yet even with that for all the grousing about origins it is almost morphed inot RPG's must be DAO.

[Solkazo]

Intresting read, i can see what the writer of the article was getting at as i did enjoy the simplified gear system in a way. It stopped me having to trowel through my inventroy to find an item with +1 stat  or what ever, i think the balance between preset armor (and it did give the companions more of a personal touch) and having to equip accessories is a good change.

I did miss the compantions having a personal touch to them, i miss having conversations with them or them approaching my character to find out about there background for this reason when i completed my DA2 first play through i didnt really feel so much attached to the characters.

I did enjoy DA2 and DA:O they feel like two different games, even in story appart from the very rare occation when there is a reference made to the original.

[Lord_Valandil]

Dubya75 wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

This is old, but...

Funny how that works. Some people still prefer text-based RPGs (as tedious are they are). Now, while there is nothing wrong with that, I prefer the more...human approach, i.e. talking and such.

Also, since you've posted an "edited" image of Hawke all crooked-eyed, would it not also have been fair to depict the cumbersome nature of old-school RPGs? (Unless you are not being objective of course).

I didn't make the image BTW.
And while the old-scool RPGs were certainly cumbersome, and Dragon Age Origins was far from perfect, I'd take
any old-school RPG over DA2. Seriously.

Also...I like the talking and such, in Origins there was a lot of talking. But it wasn't as simplified...or silly.
"I want to be a dragon", come on.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 06 avril 2011 - 12:56 .

[AkiKishi]

Solkazo wrote...

Intresting read, i can see what the writer of the article was getting at as i did enjoy the simplified gear system in a way. It stopped me having to trowel through my inventroy to find an item with +1 stat  or what ever, i think the balance between preset armor (and it did give the companions more of a personal touch) and having to equip accessories is a good change.

Did it really ? 

I found myself spending more time in the inventory because everything was named "ring" or "amulet" or "belt" and you had to inspect it to see what it did.

[Shirosaki17]

The technology just isn't there yet for a voiced protagonist in a good RPG. I mean unless you're going to put in 3 different voices (one for dwarf, elf, human, etc) with all the dialogue options which would be a lot of data and work, I think they should switch back to text based. You can have more options with text based, and still have the NPCs voice acting when speaking to the protagonist.

Also, they need to up the writing and complexity. Here is a game with no alignment, but 3 options in every dialogue that mirror the paragon/renegade options of ME. 1 good, 1 funny/smartass, 1 bad. That's just not a good way to roleplay. Where's the ambiguous moral choices? Where's the complexity/consequences to your decisions?

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 06 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[elearon1]

BobSmith101 wrote...Which is fine if you are happy being a passive sort of character.

Sigh.  Where was I being more passive here than in any crpg?  I didn't justify my actions after the fact, but made active choices about how I'd approach every conversation.  I didn't just say "I'll click the snarky reply no matter what", but considered how to respond to each discussion by how I felt "my" Hawke would reply.  I pursued and manipulated relationships with companions so as to add to my character's story.  If anything, I'd say I made Hawke feel more alive and complicated a character than I've seen in a game in a long time.

Within the confines of what you can do in a crpg with a story, (thus ignoring Fallout or Oblivion, the story in which were mostly afterthoughts) I was about as active as possible. 

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

No, one should not let the memories of a really great game experience in the past sully new experiences.  However, DA2 was promoted, advertised, and chatted up as the sequel to DAO, not a stand alone adventure game with light RPG in the DA universe. 

Yep but those changes were advertised well in advance if you choose to buy it despite that well thats on you.

Links please?   And as to that, if they hadn't been chatting it up as the successor to DAO and then creating a stand alone game;  

This forum prior to release. And there's nothing to say that a sequel has to be exactly the same as the original. Franchises have to change or they will stagnate.

erynnar wrote...

Is not the classic definition of an  true RPG a game of interactivity  and role-playing in a fictional setting where the choices made affect the story? 

There are some rpgs without stories, just pure role playing. 

Well, I didn't read on the forum to avoid spoilers. I wanted to let the game unfold while knowing as little as possible.  I wasn't expecting it to be an exact copy of DAO, hence my not wanting to be spoilered. So the fact that it was stripped of it's RPG, made into a button mashing hack and slash was a little...disappointing to say the least. Now, do I hate the game? No. But it is not the sequel to DAO that it was touted to be. And to tell me it is, then expect me to forget DAO when I play DA2 and pretend it is not a sequel is...disingenious (which has been suggested to me on various threads). Again, I don't hate DA2 it is splendid in its mediocrity (to borrow someone else's phrase). In comparison to any other game company...it is above the crowd. But in comparison to BioWare itself...it is far below its own standards.

[erynnar]

elearon1 wrote...

By the way, I did a lot of roleplaying in my second playthrough of DA2.

Used the "Mirror of Transformation" to change my character's hairstyle to reflect her moods.

In act 2 I gave her a tattoo as a memorial for a lost companion, (won't mention who, no spoilers here) and dulled her complexion a bit to show she'd lost that "youthful glow".

I romanced Isabela, but always felt she was holding back on me and, in fact, that need for stability led me to try romancing Avaline. (and if you've tried, you know how that ends)

I respected the Qunari and regretted how act 2 ended - especially when I was forced into a certain fight because I wouldn't betray a close friend - and took little pride in being called "Champion" after.

After act 2 I used the mirror to change my nose, so it would appear it had been broken during that big fight at the end. (gave myself a different nose and changed the proportions on it to create the illusion)

Come act 3 I darkened her hair a shade to suggest it had lost some of its luster from stress and age over the years, and continue to play with the styles to suit her moods.

Because I had always been fascinated by Anders (and as kind of a means to get back at Isabela) I romanced and slept with him, but realized afterwords it would lead nowhere, so broke it off - which caused him to resent me and as such I stopped taking him on adventures after that.

Ultimately, though I was still pursuing Isabela - who was still running away from commitment - I slept with Merrill and when she professed her love I asked her to move in ... more because I was lonely and wanted someone close than a belief that we were actually meant for one another.

Despite the fact that I had loved my sister, and still blamed myself for her loss, I came to distrust most mages (which certainly contributed to the fact that Merrill ended up with maxed rivalry) and after the betrayal near the end of act 3 - not only a betrayal to the city, but a *personal* betrayal as well - I killed the betrayer and left him for dead.

I'm not surprised Hawke eventually left the city, there was too much pain there and if a war was coming, she didn't know how or if she wanted anything to do with it ... but, somehow, she knew the fate of Kirkwall and the Free Marches would drag her back.

Wow, I like how you used the mirror and made up a story for your character. If you write fanfic for your Hawke I would totally read it. (and no that is not sarcasm, but sincerity, it sounds awesome). But playing with their looks in a mirror and deciding who to sleep with is pretty sparse meat on the bone for an RPG. Your decisions and the story you made up for your motivations didn't make an impact on the world. In BG, BG2, DAO the decisions you make make a difference on those worlds, sometimes with surprising and not so pleasant results. 

Modifié par erynnar, 06 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Elastica]

Dragon Age 2 marks nothing, actually, because Dragon Age 2 is NOT a RPG.

There's a limit to the things you can strip off something before it becomes something else entirely. Strip too many parts and what's left is just a pile of junk.

RPG. hah. right.

[naughty99]

elearon1 wrote...

I slept with Merrill and when she professed her love I asked her to move in ... more because I was lonely and wanted someone close than a belief that we were actually meant for one another.

Were you able to romance Merril after romancing Anders?

I had absolutely no intention of romancing Anders, but by selecting the wrong dialogue option, he moved in to the mansion and it seems that he has permanently blocked all romances with all other characters.

[Leovigild]

Persephone wrote...

You know, I remember this being said about NWN and its sequels, DAO, ME, The Witcher and now DAII....and yet....given all these amazing titles, I have never loved the RPG genre more.

I add Icewind Dale, Deus Ex 2,  ME2... The RPG-Genre "died" so often in the Eyes of some "Genrefans", that the real Question is, if it ever existed...

[Dubya75]

Elastica wrote...

Dragon Age 2 marks nothing, actually, because Dragon Age 2 is NOT a RPG.

There's a limit to the things you can strip off something before it becomes something else entirely. Strip too many parts and what's left is just a pile of junk.

RPG. hah. right.

I'm curious to know what those "stripped off" things are exactly? Could you list them please? No, really. I want to know! Sincerely.

[naughty99]

Lord_Valandil wrote...


But it wasn't as simplified...or silly.
"I want to be a dragon", come on.

"I want to be a dragon" was the cheeky dialogue hint. The actual dialogue was something in the vein of "That was a neat trick, Flemeth."

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

IT'S THE APOCALYPSE OF RPG GAMING ZOMG

People like this make me laugh and sad at the same time. I laugh because they are pathetic, small-minded morons, but I'm sad because they are part of humanity, just like me.

[Rogue Unit]

Also...I like the talking and such, in Origins there was a lot of talking. But it wasn't as simplified...or silly.
"I want to be a dragon", come on.

"Are there griffons in this story?"

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 06 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[leeboi2]

Thank **** for that!

[Dark83]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Also...I like the talking and such, in Origins there was a lot of talking. But it wasn't as simplified...or silly.
"I want to be a dragon", come on.

"Are there griffons in this story?"

Yeah, that's a lot more silly than "You could show me that trick of yours" when the lady who saved your ass by turning into a dragon asks what else you expect her to do.

[AkiKishi]

elearon1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...Which is fine if you are happy being a passive sort of character.

Sigh.  Where was I being more passive here than in any crpg?  I didn't justify my actions after the fact, but made active choices about how I'd approach every conversation.  I didn't just say "I'll click the snarky reply no matter what", but considered how to respond to each discussion by how I felt "my" Hawke would reply.  I pursued and manipulated relationships with companions so as to add to my character's story.  If anything, I'd say I made Hawke feel more alive and complicated a character than I've seen in a game in a long time.

Within the confines of what you can do in a crpg with a story, (thus ignoring Fallout or Oblivion, the story in which were mostly afterthoughts) I was about as active as possible. 

All you did was come up for a rationale for events that were forced on you. That it required a tool that was not part of DA2 by default is really more telling than any of your actions.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[Rockpopple]

@ BobSmith - Not to intrude into your conversation, but I'm curious: what crpg does any differently than force events on you?

[AkiKishi]

Rockpopple wrote...

@ BobSmith - Not to intrude into your conversation, but I'm curious: what crpg does any differently than force events on you?

Have you played Fallout:New Vegas?