27 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

Hideous Blow is pretty dire in the standard game. You get to add your Eldritch Blast damage (and any essence you apply) to a melee weapon attack, but casting HB takes a whole extra round, meaning you may as well just use a ranged EB (making a touch attack which is more likely to hit) and then attack for one round. Apparently, according to PnP rules, HB is meant to include a single melee attack so it's more like adding weapon damage to an EB, and it's still generally considered poor because Warlocks make such mediocre melee combatants.

The only advantage to HB is if you pre-cast it, but for this you have to use it on a placeable or something and then break off before hitting (which would discharge the HB), which not only feels like an exploitation of the game engine, but also only gives you one free lot of EB damage on your first melee hit in a combat.

Now, the thing is, that I've seen community-made modifications to make HB useful (I think the Warlock Buddy features this, and IIRC Kaedrin has added to his as well) but what they do is simply auto-cast HB every round. This means that you get ALL your attacks each round, PLUS your EB damage and any essenses with no penalty at all, which strikes me as too powerful (any fighter-type could, for example, take a single level of Warlock for a free +1d6 damage each hit at the cost of maybe 1 point of BAB or something - taking two or three levels would give Draining/Fearful Blast and maybe +2d6 instead).

So my question is, how would you balance HB so that it's still useful, but not overpowered? I would just make it stick with PnP rules apart from the fact that A) the NWN2 engine seems to be designed to prevent it and it's considered inferior to Eldritch Glaive or just a plain Blast in PnP anyway. Of course, any attempts to persuade me that free, passive, EB damage each round isn't overpowered are welcome, too.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Maybe you could take the auto-cast code, but limit it by using a custom GUI that turns on and off the HB auto-cast, maybe with a cool-down timer between charges.

[Arkalezth]

The Warlock Buddy adds the Eldritch Blast damage to only one attack/round, the rest of the attacks are normal, without the extra damage. That's how it's supposed to be.

I have played Warlocks and used it with the Buddy, and it's not as powerful as you think. Can't talk about epic Warlocks, but it shouldn't be unbalanced at all.

No idea about Kaedrin's. There's also an AI option in Tony K's to make it work as in the Warlock Buddy (1 round total, not 1 round to cast and another to attack), but I haven't tested it.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 05 avril 2011 - 03:17 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Try HB on my PW and see if you like that. Self target with seek enemy you have targeted done inside the script, longer duration on the item, and able to cast right on the item if needed. Spent a lot of effort trying to make it fun, think of it as a poor mans sneak attack.

Script and spells.2da is on the citadel.

[manageri]

My only concern with the autocast option is the multiclass issue you mentioned. 2 warlock levels = chance to slow your target every single round. That's more an issue with draining blast being way too good for a least invocation than an issue with HB though.

Just the damage is totally fine, it's identical to sneak attack except it's limited to once a round, and there needs to be some reward for risking your arse on the frontline with your puny warlock melee credentials. The only potential issue I see again comes from multiclassing, but only if you include kaedrin's stuff because then that 1-2 levels gives you a 3d6 EB with practiced invoker, meaning with just one feat you'd gain +2d6 damage a round as long as you hit with just one of your attacks (for weapon specialization to match that you'd need to hit 3.5 attacks on average).

[The Fred]

Quoting Complete Arcane...
As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack.

NWN(2) doesn't have the standard action and full / single attack stuff, but I think the idea of it is that you can only make one, full-round attack whilst using HB. I'm not too worried about making HB more powerful than that, because it's pretty poor even in PnP, but adding it automatically doesn't appear to be in accordance with that (correct me if I'm wrong, people who know PnP) and seems a bit on the powerful side, too.

The damage is in line with sneak attack, only it's also magical (or elemental of your choice) damage, meaning it ignores a lot of resistances, with a possible extra effect, and isn't stopped by undead, constructs etc.

If it turns out HB applied each round isn't overpowered then I'm fine to use that, but my main worry is that it's quite passive, and I'd rather have something which rewards smart play, e.g. something powerful but with a drawback if you use it in the wrong place.

[Arkalezth]

See it this way: using Feint, a dual-wielding character can apply sneak attack damage to up to 11 attacks per round. With the same character, HB damage would be applied to only one attack.

[manageri]

Exactly, if sneak attack (aka the exact same damage as EB) was seriously overpowered then rogues would be utterly obliterating everything that isn't immune to it in an unprecedented manner. Are they doing that? So why would that damage, but only once per round, be overpowered?

You won't even always be gaining damage by using HB, after all you now need to hit a real attack instead of the touch attack you'd be doing by blasting from a distance, not to mention later on you could be using aoe shape invocations instead. Think about how much weapon damage you have to do to beat chaining a vitriolic blast to a few extra targets for example. Still sound OP to you?

[Haplose]

manageri wrote...

Exactly, if sneak attack (aka the exact same damage as EB) was seriously overpowered then rogues would be utterly obliterating everything that isn't immune to it in an unprecedented manner. Are they doing that?

Umm, somewhere around level 10 Feint builds start to do that, yes. Provided that they can reliably:
1. Succeed in feinting the enemy
2. Hit the enemy
3. The enemy is not crit/sneak immune

If these conditions are met, then they just rrrrip through enemies.

[The Fred]

Hmm, OK. I'm not sure HB quite compares with feint/sneak attacks; at low levels, you cannot feint reliably, and at high ones you have to have poured a lot into it (high Cha, bonus Bluff feats, etc). When you don't make many attacks, adding some extra damage dice to any of one of them which hits isn't that much worse than adding some extra damage dice to any which do hit (since non of them might hit), plus this is magical damage, which isn't affected by DR OR crit/sneak immunities. HB can also apply an essense to your target, meaning that you can force them to save or be slowed or blinded or something every round (in fact you could alternate essenses, setting them on fire and then hitting them with something else in between etc, for a lot more than your plain EB damage).

Now, I'm not sure that is overpowered, but remember it's a least invocation. You could even switch it out for something else at higher levels. Obviously, against multiple enemies, Eldritch Chain will be better, but HB is the only one even potentially useful against single foes, and it's a low level. Remember, you could even combine HB with sneak/death attack (not sure whether that would work out, but it's theoretically possible).

Anyway, I'd be happy just to apply HB each round, but it feels so passive, it's like a 24-hour invocation which increases your damage per round by your EB damage (essentially giving you a blast AND an attack, with only the melee touch vs melee attack drawback, which doesn't matter so long as you hit once in a round). I feel there should be some sort of tactical element, at least.

[Arkalezth]

It compares with sneak attack as a damage buffer.
I've played low level melee Warlocks and haven't noticed a big difference between using HB and not. Yes, it helps a bit, but nothing spectacular. No much more damage than a pure Fighter, for example.

Also, consider that pure Warlocks won't have a high AB usually, so the attack can miss, whilst multiclassed ones will lose blast damage. A melee Warlock shouldn't have such a high CHA and DC as a casting one, so the chance to debuff enemies with the blast should be lower too.

HB is horribly implemented in the vanilla game, spending an entire round to prepare it is boring and useless if you're already in combat. And did I say boring? The way it works with the Warlock's Buddy (if you activate it, you can deactivate that option if you don't like it) seems reasonable enough.

I think there are things way more overpowered than HB in this game. Have you tested it with a mid-high level Warlock?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 06 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[manageri]

Haplose wrote...

Umm, somewhere around level 10 Feint builds start to do that, yes.

Ok, then do you think they would be doing that with one sneak attack dice per round?

The Fred wrote...

Hmm, OK. I'm not sure HB quite compares
with feint/sneak attacks; at low levels, you cannot feint reliably, and
at high ones you have to have poured a lot into it (high Cha, bonus
Bluff feats, etc). When you don't make many attacks, adding some extra
damage dice to any of one of them which hits isn't that much worse than
adding some extra damage dice to any which do hit (since non of them
might hit), plus this is magical damage, which isn't affected by DR OR
crit/sneak immunities. HB can also apply an essense to your target,
meaning that you can force them to save or be slowed or blinded or
something every round (in fact you could alternate essenses, setting
them on fire and then hitting them with something else in between etc,
for a lot more than your plain EB damage).

I think you're looking at it backwards, you should be thinking about the weapon attacks being a bonus to the blast instead of the other way around like we do with sneak attack. Warlocks already set people on fire, blind them, aren't affected by DR etc etc. HB just adds some weapon damage to all that (which is affected by DR etc etc) AND it will lower your chance of connecting with any of that because you change your touch attack to weapon attacks. You can't even count it as a simple + damage, against high AC enemies it can easily be less damage than just blasting on average due to the higher AC. You also need to pour stats/feats into melee stuff as a warlock if you want HB to be worth it, just like with feint.

Now, I'm not sure that
is overpowered, but remember it's a least invocation. You could even
switch it out for something else at higher levels. Obviously, against
multiple enemies, Eldritch Chain will be better, but HB is the only one
even potentially useful against single foes, and it's a low level.
Remember, you could even combine HB with sneak/death attack (not sure
whether that would work out, but it's theoretically possible).

You mean sneak attack affecting both the melee attack that delivered it and the HB? I don't think you should get the SA dice on both, both from a rules and balance perspective.

Yes it's the only single target blast shape invocation that can increase damage but again, you're unlikely to even gain damage from it unless you've sacrificed something to make you better at melee (especially against tough single target enemies with decent AC), and you're risking getting your head chewed off by going into melee range. I'm not sure why you think it'd be a good invocation to switch off at higher levels since it keeps scaling with your BAB and you'd really have to build your char for it at least a little bit for it to be very useful at any level.

Anyway,
I'd be happy just to apply HB each round, but it feels so passive, it's
like a 24-hour invocation which increases your damage per round by your
EB damage (essentially giving you a blast AND an attack, with only the
melee touch vs melee attack drawback, which doesn't matter so long as
you hit once in a round). I feel there should be some sort of tactical
element, at least.

I'd say deciding whether you wanna go poke the wyvern with your spear instead of blasting from a distance is a tactical element. I do agree it feels weird as a 24 hour kinda buff, maybe something like 2 rounds per caster level would be better so you need to cast it at least at the start of every fight, and that'd deter multiclass abuse both with the duration and because you couldn't just cast it once at the start of the day and never make a spell failure check again if you're heavily armored.

[The Fred]

manageri wrote...
I think you're looking at it backwards, you should be thinking about the weapon attacks being a bonus to the blast instead of the other way around like we do with sneak attack.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but if you are just attacking normally and the EB is automatically being added on, it feels more like you're adding damage to your melee attack, without actually doing anything. Plus, a Fighter or similar could take two Warlock levels for a 1d6 HB and Draining Blast (or even three Warlock levels for a 2d6 boost), and only lose 1 AB, and a melee-BAB char such as a rogue, monk or cleric wouldn't lose even that.

manageri wrote...
You mean sneak attack affecting both the melee attack that delivered it and the HB? I don't think you should get the SA dice on both, both from a rules and balance perspective.

I actually just meant they would add up, for example you could be a Warlock 1/Rogue 1 and get +1d6 from each, though it shouldn't be particularly overpowered because both scale at the same rate, and the most you can get is an extra 1d6 at even levels from breakpoints.

manageri wrote...
I'd say deciding whether you wanna go poke the wyvern with your spear instead of blasting from a distance is a tactical element.

That's true, but it's more a strategic element in terms of picking a melee invocation because if you do decide to go and attack in melee, HB is automatically added... there's no benefit to using a plain attack without HB, for example. I'm not saying there necessarily should, but it feels too passive.

manageri wrote...
I do agree it feels weird as a 24 hour kinda buff, maybe something like 2 rounds per caster level would be better so you need to cast it at least at the start of every fight, and that'd deter multiclass abuse both with the duration and because you couldn't just cast it once at the start of the day and never make a spell failure check again if you're heavily armored.

The way I understand it, HB is being automatically applied each round (I think that's how the Warlock Buddy does it, and at least, that's how I'd do it). I guess if you built in checks to make it work only like a normal invocation it might work - I don't think conc. checks would make sense or even be possible, since the actual invocation has no distinct casting time from the attack so there's no defined duration in which you can be hit (I guess you could rule that it's always done in Defensive Casting mode) and provoking an Attack of Opportunity is also awkward to implement, and I think HB was designed as a way to avoid AoO (instead of using a plain blast in melee, you can channel it through an attack). However, if you made it acknowledge arcane spell failure, it would at least mean that HB couldn't be abused by heavily armoured warriors.

[Arkalezth]

The Fred wrote...

Yeah, I see what you mean, but if you are just attacking normally and the EB is automatically being added on, it feels more like you're adding damage to your melee attack, without actually doing anything. Plus, a Fighter or similar could take two Warlock levels for a 1d6 HB and Draining Blast (or even three Warlock levels for a 2d6 boost), and only lose 1 AB, and a melee-BAB char such as a rogue, monk or cleric wouldn't lose even that.

Again, only for one attack per round. Almost all other damage improvements are added to every attack. A level 3 Druid can enchant a weapon to do 1d8 extra fire damage in every attack, and it lasts for a long time. Weapon Specialization adds +2 to every attack.

There are more powerful dips. A Fighter dip can give you access to full plate, tower shield (that's 12 AC), most weapons and a free feat, without AB loss. 1d6 damage to 1 attack/round seems pretty meh in comparison.

However, if you made it acknowledge arcane spell failure, it would at least mean that HB couldn't be abused by heavily armoured warriors.

Mithral heavy shield has 0% ASF. You can use medium armor with no penalty if you have Battle Caster (and the best armor in the game is medium). And you have Leaps and Bounds if you wear light armor and don't fill the DEX armor limit naturally.

So you basically can be immune to ASF while being well armored.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 06 avril 2011 - 11:12 .

[Haplose]

manageri wrote...

Haplose wrote...

Umm, somewhere around level 10 Feint builds start to do that, yes.

Ok, then do you think they would be doing that with one sneak attack dice per round?

Nope, that's partly why I think HB is a terrible Invocation. Especially if you compare it with something like Eldiritch Glaive. Now that is an interesting Warlock melee Invocation!

[The Fred]

Arkalezth wrote...
Mithral heavy shield has 0% ASF. You can use medium armor with no penalty if you have Battle Caster (and the best armor in the game is medium). And you have Leaps and Bounds if you wear light armor and don't fill the DEX armor limit naturally.

So you basically can be immune to ASF while being well armored.

Yes, you can get around it, but you can do that for other invocations... if Hideous Blow is being reapplied each round, and ignoring things like ASF, you could wear heavy, non-mithril plate without battle caster, with a non-mithril tower shield, and still get all its benefits. If it took into account ASF, you wouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe in melee in all that gear without HB failing to work at least some of the time. If you want to take Armour Proficiency (Medium) and Battle Caster and can find mithril gear, then that's fine, but I'm talking about balancing HB around other invocations.

That said, it seems pretty silly that an invocation which is channeled through a melee attack should fail because you're wearing heavy armour. I just don't quite like the idea that HB might apply itself with no thought from the player.

[Arkalezth]

Are you sure ASF isn't applied? I've never tested it, just curious.

I (and most Warlock players, I guess) will always try to find 0 ASF gear, there are more invocations I want to cast. And if HB is your only invocation, then it won't be very powerful.

Anyway, that won't make any real difference in HB's power. Again, I don't consider it overpowered, I think the vanilla version needs to be fixed, but that's because it's useless and tedious. Warlock Buddy makes it usable, but not overpowered at all.

[manageri]

The Fred wrote...

Yeah, I see what you mean, but if you are just attacking normally and the EB is automatically being added on, it feels more like you're adding damage to your melee attack, without actually doing anything. Plus, a Fighter or similar could take two Warlock levels for a 1d6 HB and Draining Blast (or even three Warlock levels for a 2d6 boost), and only lose 1 AB, and a melee-BAB char such as a rogue, monk or cleric wouldn't lose even that.

Yeah, that's why I don't like the 24 hour thing so much. It'd be fine for pure warlocks but multiclassing screws everything up as usual. However if it only lasted a few rounds for that fighter (like 2 rounds per caster level) and then had to be recast with the appropriate spell failure and possible concentration checks, then I think it'd be fine.

And like I said, I think draining blast is OP. I'd change it from Slow to Doom or something.

[The Fred]

As I understand it, the Warlock buddy is simulating you insta-casting HB each round, before hitting, which is why it's getting reapplied every round. That makes sense, and I guess it's not that overpowered (as I said, PnP says you only get one attack with it, but in PnP HB stinks almost as badly as it does in NWN2, which is no attacks with it), but I want it to be clear that you're still using an invocation rather than just getting free extra damage. I guess I can make it so that HB stops getting applied so long as you are silenced etc (i.e. if you couldn't cast a plain blast, you can't get HB damage).

One alternative would be to make it apply to every attack for one round, but still need a round to cast, or something like that (it would work out as replacing half your attack damage with EB damage, still better than a blast once you have more than one attack and not too bad if your attack damage isn't that good anyway) but that'd actually be harder to implement, I think, and probably kinda boring, even if it is more "active".

[Arkalezth]

Yes, that's how it works with the Buddy, but I thought it was still subject to ASF and the like.

I just don't feel the need to change anything, it seems well balanced for me (with the Buddy). YMMV.
Take a look at Flee the Scene, for example. You need a few more levels, but it's like having Persistent Haste at level 6. One extra attack to the entire party is usually a bigger damage boost than HB. That's the main reason why I use the Buddy, too, having to recast it every 30 seconds is a pain in the ass.

And yes, what you propose would be boring. If I need to cast it every round on myself, and then attack the enemy, I won't take it. If I lose some damage per attack, so be it. It would be very similar to the vanilla one, but with damage applied to more attacks (if you have them).

Edit: Maybe you could mix the Buddy with Manageri's suggestion. It might be hard to implement, though:

You could make it last a round/level, or something like that. Then the Buddy would work as with Flee the Scene: it would recast it automatically, outside of combat. If you were in combat and the buff ran out, you would have to recast it manually. At low levels its duration would be pathetic, but it could work afterwards.

That's my suggestion, now I'll leave you to make it work.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 06 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[manageri]

The Fred wrote...

I guess I can make it so that HB stops getting applied so long as you are silenced etc (i.e. if you couldn't cast a plain blast, you can't get HB damage).

There is no verbal component in invocations because they're spell-like abilities (in PnP at least, no idea about NWN2).

I've never used the buddy but the rod of preparation does take spell failure into account when it's insta casting buffs so that should be technically possible if they work the same way.

[painofdungeoneternal]

The rules as they are in game are completely wrong per PNP, they are basically using the uncorrected rules which with some bugs added and do not follow any of the authors errata or corrections. Nothing requires a verbal component, even the word of changing with its description to the contrary. That is the only one i am really saying HAS to have a verbal component.

[lofgren]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I will say it again here. My approach was to allow the warlock to add only 1/2 his eldritch blast dice to both main- and off-hand weapons, but to do so for 10 rounds. The warlock still has to cast the spell while adjacent to an enemy, opening him up to opportunity attacks and costing him 1 round, plus he has to actually land the attacks.

Landing an attack is not trivial. It takes two feats for a warlock to get medium armor, which means that most warlocks will be adjacent to an enemy while wearing light armor and having a somewhat low DEX since warlocks tend to pump CHA. Unless he wants to sacrifice his AC even more, he'll probably have a low STR as well, which means weapon finesse will be a worthwhile purchase even if he has only 16 DEX (especially with leaps and bounds or +DEX items). If the warlock expends ability points in strength or dexterity, his DCs quickly fall behind and the benefit of essences is practically lost. Finally, warlock weapons suck. The most likely weapon he'll be using is a dagger or a sickle unless he takes martial weapon proficiency.

I have found this to be a fairly good balance. A melee warlock has to be pretty committed to it in order to get a lot of use out of hideous blow, but if he is willing to expend the feats you can build a character entirely around this one invocation.

Compared to feint, which also requires several feats, the warlock has comparable advantages and disadvantages.  Additionally, rogues have the option of using bows.  Although a ranged touch attack is much more likely to land, you can only fire one per round, while a bow or sling using rogue can land several attacks in a round from relative safety.  Rogues also have more feats and more freedom to devote their entire build to attack prowess.

Modifié par lofgren, 07 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[The Fred]

Ack, I forgot invocations don't use verbal components.

I think the Buddy just reapplies the effect every 6 seconds, rather than actually casting the spell (doing that would probably interrupt your actions) and so doesn't check for things like ASF. However, I'm not sure it should - if your somatic component for this invocation is hitting someone, something a fighter can do in full plate with a tower shield, you probably shouldn't suffer from ASF. I suppose you could rule that you have to make simple additional motions to invoke HB, but then you would expect that the time taken to do that would mean you wouldn't be able to make a full attack against someone as well.

[manageri]

I'd really worry more about the balance/gameplay implications with stuff like ASF than whether it makes perfect sense. Even HB focused warlocks are propably going to stick to gear with 0% ASF so letting the invocation ignore it seems to do nothing but make it easier for fighter types to abuse it.