86 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

We keep talking about how the thin veil is making mages crazy and such, but it occurs to me I haven't seen much speculation about what the Tevinter were trying to do when they thinned it.  It wasn't just because they were brutal monsters, that was just a yummy side-dish for them.  The city's layout uses building designs to form massive glyphs, magical symbols.   Many of the buildings at the center of these glyphs were built upon literal lakes of blood.  They were draining "nearly an entire civilization's worth of slaves over the centuries" of blood and storing it down there for some kind of ritual.

But we never find out what.  It's hinted that they might've been trying to contact or summon some superdemon (which consequently roflstomped them) but that's just conjecture from a Band of Three member.  Anyone have any theories?  The only thing I can come up with is perhaps they were trying to physically enter the Fade again (if they ever did originally).  But are even the Tevinter that stupid?  What would they even be attempting to accomplish by entering the Fade physically?  I can't imagine what else would require such a tremendous amount of magical power.  That much blood alone indicates they were attempting something far beyond anything we hear of outside of the Chantry's fairy tales.  But using the city's layout as massive gylphs too?

I can't imagine we've heard the last of this.  If they just wanted to say "thin veil, so crazy mages" they didn't need to have the Tevinter doing anything except their usual atrocities.

[Asdara]

Well, after the Tevinter supposedly got thrown out of the Black City, they may have been attempting to realign themselves with the Forgotten Ones or Old Gods (dragons, of a sort possibly) in order to reassert their power and dominance in the face of the uprising?

The Ancient Thaig is probably connected, with the idol everyone considers a terrible trope right now, and will pop up in a future title / expansion / ect.

Recalling the thousands and thousands of slaves who went "missing" through the ages at Kirkwall... it's obviously a big, long-term project

[Anarcala]

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place. If not, I'd like to see a DLC about how the events of the Band of Three had possible impact on Hawke's situation...

[Curlain]

Agreed, this could have been the place they conducted the research to find out how to sunder the Veil and get to the Golden/Black City

[Rifneno]

Asdara wrote...

The Ancient Thaig is probably connected, with the idol everyone considers a terrible trope right now, and will pop up in a future title / expansion / ect.

I considered this, but I don't think they're connected.  That Thaig is ancient.  Some estimates place it at over ten thousand years.  The Tevinters were eons later even by conservative estimates of its age.  Whatever wiped out that Thaig happened long before Kirkwall.  We also don't know where the Primordial Thaig is.  We just know that there were 4 entrances to the Deep Roads in the Free Marches, and that it's "a week below the surface."  I'm sure travel is slow but that's incredibly deep.  Come to think of it, it's so deep that it's nonsensical you can spend more than 5 minutes down there before dying of heat stroke.  But anyway, the Thaig could be anywhere in the Free Marches.  If they took an entrance near the border and the Deep Roads travel went towards it, you could even make the case it's outside of the Free Marches.

So there's a vast difference in both time and likely space for the mysteries of the Primordial Thaig to be connected to the mysteries of Kirkwall.

[Amagoi]

I really doubt the Primeval Thaig has anything to do with the Enigma. For Ages the only people that ever knew about it were a handful of scavengers that no one believed in Orzammar. It's too much of a stretch to believe that somehow the Tevinters got wind of it, and decided to investigate it themselves.

According to the Band of Three, the whole city of Kirkwall is designed as a series of glyphs, or maybe a giant one that has several making it up. So that would mean that whatever the Tevinters were planning to do in Kirkwall, they had it figured out before they even came to the Free Marches. It's possible that Kirkwall was where they entered the Fade, though I've always assumed it would have been in Minranthous.

Either way, the Enigma has something to do with the Forgotten Ones. They were only mentioned in the Enimga codexes, and in the Evil Tomes from the Forbidden Knowledge questline. Both Hybris and Xebenkeck are Forgotten Ones that we find in DA2, so there must be a connection to Kirkwall for them. The only one we've found outside of Kirkwall is Gaxxkang the Unbound.

[ModernMan2009]

The design of the city and the use of slaves in rituals was done to lower the fade and allow Blood Magic research to be completed under the city. The codex entries seem to suggest that it was done on a purely research level and to contact/control powerful demons.

[Alanosborn1991]

Thatd be cool to have a DLC with the Band of Three and you being one of them. Doing all the secret behind the scenes stuff.

Maybe to start the DLC you import your Hawke into it after beating game and always see your Hawke in background making choices and all why you stealth your way past and leave those messages behind.

[Kenshen]

To borrow from a anime I watch what they could have been doing was something that was meant to protect them from something rather than attempting to do something. Now if that is the case the question would be what were they protecting against that would require the sheer size of what they did.

[Maria Caliban]

Anarcala wrote...

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

ready access to lyrium and massive quantities of slaves? I think the free marches are perhaps a place in thedas where the veil is naturally weak, perhaps as a result of the Dread Wolf sundering the fade and the mortal realm. or perhaps the free marches is a forgotten part of Arthalan's old empire, abandoned in the wake of the first contact with humanity.:happy:

[Maria Caliban]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

ready access to lyrium and massive quantities of slaves? I think the free marches are perhaps a place in thedas where the veil is naturally weak, perhaps as a result of the Dread Wolf sundering the fade and the mortal realm. or perhaps the free marches is a forgotten part of Arthalan's old empire, abandoned in the wake of the first contact with humanity.:happy:

All the slaves were brought in. They could have picked any location and made that a center of the slave trade.

And why would they need access to large amounts of lyrium if they're sacrificing thousands of slaves?

[Satyricon331]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...
Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

I remember one of the Enigma of Kirkwall codices mentioning that the city has a huge port, which would probably have helped with the transportation of large amounts of slaves for the harvest.

Plus, perhaps the local geography lended itself unusally well towards a glyph-shaped layout?  

The other unique geographical feature the area has is that waterway the city can have a chain across to block some important trade route.  Perhaps they wanted someplace that would have a healthy local revenue stream?  Or something more significant... I just want to say that feature plays some role more important than providing a back story on taxes.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

All the slaves were brought in. They could have picked any location and made that a center of the slave trade.

And why would they need access to large amounts of lyrium if they're sacrificing thousands of slaves?

It makes sense from an efficiency standpoint... if the goal is to weaken the veil between the fade and the waking world, you'd want to do so where it is already weak, like building a road on already-flat land, rather than trying to flatten hilly or mountainous terrain. What they wanted, I'm really not sure. They'd been doing it for centuries though. Whatever their goal was, it had to have been some sort of lasting, long-term goal. It's an excellent question though... maybe they were trying to make it easier to contact demons? Trying to entice more demons and control them sounds something suitably magisterish.

The Enigma of Kirkwall doesn't mention Lyrium at all... I'm pretty sure the tevinter shenanigans were slave-powered. 

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...
Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

They had a mass of slaves there needed to work the quarry. They had the chance to design the tunnels as they worked, and they had plenty of workers already there to do so and to use.

It seems like a good location.

[Beerfish]

The Tevinters were evil tyrannical oppressive rulers who loved slavery and helped create the blight, but they don't have the circle to inconvenience mages so they are okay.   

[blothulfur]

Perhaps the magisters were not consciously trying to do anything, perhaps the demons that they dealt with in their unthinking lust for power were subconsciously calling the shots.

Once the magisters tried to enter the fade, now the fade wants to enter the materium.

Cue twilight zone theme.

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

ready access to lyrium and massive quantities of slaves? I think the free marches are perhaps a place in thedas where the veil is naturally weak, perhaps as a result of the Dread Wolf sundering the fade and the mortal realm. or perhaps the free marches is a forgotten part of Arthalan's old empire, abandoned in the wake of the first contact with humanity.:happy:

All the slaves were brought in. They could have picked any location and made that a center of the slave trade.

And why would they need access to large amounts of lyrium if they're sacrificing thousands of slaves?

They used slaves and lyrium to enter the Fade. So probably they need both for really big rituals. Considering they should have blood in almost endless supply (from slaves) I guess raw lyrium is more potent, if maybe more rare.

Also they may have chosen a location away from Tevinter for safety. If things go wrong they maybe didn't want their capital to blow up or be swallowed by the earth. Or maybe it was already an ancient place of power before the Tevinters found it.

[TheBlackBaron]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Maybe it's the place where the Tevinter Mages entered the Fade and caused the Black City in the first place.

It's what I assumed.

Though the question then is: Why there?

Kirkwall is strategically located to be able to control the flow of trade in the Waking Sea and to manage the huge influx of slaves that would be coming into the city. The Tevinters also built it all the way out there in order to keep what would likely be the epicenter of any slave revolts far away from Minrathous and the heart of the Imperium; this would likewise serve the dual purpose of keeping any damage from the experiments far away from the same areas in case something went spectacularly wrong. That's also one of the reasons Ostagar, one of their main sites of magical experimentation, was later built on the extreme fringes of its territory. 

Personally, I think that rather than the site of their first attempt at physically entering the Fade, the magisters may have intended to use it as the site of a second go at it. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 05 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[Amagoi]

It's worth noting that the Tevinters specifically came to the Kirkwall region. The Band of Three couldn't figure it out. Some historians thought it was because of the area's natural advantage of being near mountains and having a harbor, but the Band of Three implied that as the Tevinter's were ruled by mages that transportation of armies across the sea may not have been the reason they came there.

Having a natural harbor and being on the edge of the Imperium were just bonuses I think. The Archon knew there was something in or around where Kirkwall was built. The center of slave trade came much later.

Perhaps it was an ancient battleground? It would fit in with what we know of Sundermount. Merril's demon was trapped there for centuries, and claimed to witness the fall of Arlathan. Something bad must have happened there. I think the magisters just made it worse.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Amagoi wrote...

It's worth noting that the Tevinters specifically came to the Kirkwall region. The Band of Three couldn't figure it out. Some historians thought it was because of the area's natural advantage of being near mountains and having a harbor, but the Band of Three implied that as the Tevinter's were ruled by mages that transportation of armies across the sea may not have been the reason they came there.

Having a natural harbor and being on the edge of the Imperium were just bonuses I think. The Archon knew there was something in or around where Kirkwall was built. The center of slave trade came much later.

Perhaps it was an ancient battleground? It would fit in with what we know of Sundermount. Merril's demon was trapped there for centuries, and claimed to witness the fall of Arlathan. Something bad must have happened there. I think the magisters just made it worse.

That is the impression that I'm getting, I think its worth noting that in the Witch Hunt DLC, there are hints of Cadash Thaig having been rebuilt after some kind of battle after the Fall of Arthalan, which might tie into the existence of the Ancient Thaig as being part of an older Dwarven Empire. Maybe the Arthalan elves and the Ancestors of the Profane were engaged in trading resources. Keep in mind that Sundermount is also one of the few places that we have seen some of the legacy creatures of the Elvhen. 

[Asdara]

Rifneno wrote...

Asdara wrote...

The Ancient Thaig is probably connected, with the idol everyone considers a terrible trope right now, and will pop up in a future title / expansion / ect.

I considered this, but I don't think they're connected.  That Thaig is ancient.  Some estimates place it at over ten thousand years.  The Tevinters were eons later even by conservative estimates of its age.  Whatever wiped out that Thaig happened long before Kirkwall.  We also don't know where the Primordial Thaig is.  We just know that there were 4 entrances to the Deep Roads in the Free Marches, and that it's "a week below the surface."  I'm sure travel is slow but that's incredibly deep.  Come to think of it, it's so deep that it's nonsensical you can spend more than 5 minutes down there before dying of heat stroke.  But anyway, the Thaig could be anywhere in the Free Marches.  If they took an entrance near the border and the Deep Roads travel went towards it, you could even make the case it's outside of the Free Marches.

So there's a vast difference in both time and likely space for the mysteries of the Primordial Thaig to be connected to the mysteries of Kirkwall.

Fair enough, but we're talking about Tevinters way back to the time of Arlathan here... they were in power a long time and they didn't have to know the Ancient Thaig was there to know they were near some place of power - or both places are where they are because of proximate to a shrine of an old god, resting place of an old god, special awesome convergence of X factors.

Knowing it was there isn't needed to have been drawing off the same power source.  And Kirkwall is supposed to be a fairly large city, much larger than we're led to think by having to visit the same areas over and over and over.  The Gallows is on an island - a special waterway was constructed from the bay area to access it.  This is a substantial plot of land Kirkwall occupies, and that's just the city portion not addressing the outlying farm communities that we can reasonably assume exist.  The Deep Roads entrance is at the base of the Sundermont area somewhere by the costal approach according to the "hop to this location" map provided - not far off from Kirkwall.

There is obviously something special about this area, but not knowing what it is and to what extent its been explored or exploited is the gap right now that could be filled by any speculation.

[Blacklash93]

I doubt it was just another mad effort to get into the Black City again. Not only does that sound boring, but even the author puts that notion into question.

Why were the Forgotten Ones mentioned? What did they find at "the center of it all" that scared the surviving author away for good?

But the Forgotten One, or demon or whatever it is, must be destroyed. I fear one may already be unbound.

There are plenty of questions still left unanswered.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Mnemnosyne]

I forget which codex it is, but one of them lists the names of the Forgotten Ones, and Gaxkang the Unbound is among them. I am not sure what significance this might have but it seemed worth mentioning.

[Asdara]

You mean all those bound vials we were happily breaking as we rampaged through Ferelden last game? That's a shame... should have put better labels on those puppies.