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[NoteworthyFellow]

I've been curious as to how magic and spells work in Thedas. Magical lore, at least in RPGs, seems to fall along a spectrum between two extremes:

-- The D&D system, Vancian magic, where spells are discrete, codified, and specific. A Fireball spell can only ever shoot a fireball; you can't dial it back to, say, light a candle.

-- The Mage: The Awakening system, where magic is free-form, and "spells" are just effective ways to use that free-form power that others (or the mage themself) have come up with and passed around. A Fireball spell is just a way to use the mage's innate ability to manipulate flame. That mage could light a candle with his magic if he wanted to, without using a codified spell.

I've generally considered Thedas's magic to fall closer to the latter. We see Bethany in the opening summoning a wall of fire to stop some darkspawn, and yet, when you control her, she only knows Fireball. Ketojan is able to self-immolate, but you can never learn an "ignite" spell.

Any thoughts? Has there been any indication otherwise?

[Miashi]

I think that the reason why spells are discrete or codified is that not defining boundaries with spells would make mages even more overpowered, and it'd be difficult to control.

In dungeon and dragon (if you play tabletop) and depending on your dungeon master, you can probably shape a spell a certain way if there's a roleplay or contextual explanation to it.

When you look at physical combat, it's very controlled and falls within specific boundaries. Magic should also follow a certain amount of limitations (not necessarily physical, but still).

I think that bottomline, my understanding of Dragon Age's magic:

You start off with an igniter (blood, lyrium/mana), then you shape it into an element (fire, water, spirit, shadow, etc), and then you channel it (or mold it) into something (a ball, a wall, a wave, a cone, an explosion, a force field).

[NoteworthyFellow]

I should have pointed out that I get why spells exist in gameplay, but I'm curious what they represent for lore.

I think you're on to something with your hypothesis, though, about fuel -> element -> shape.

[Herr Uhl]

Apart from rituals it seems pretty free form. DA2's magic upgrade system seems to agree with it (larger fireball for example).

[Lithuasil]

Imho, it works like this.

Magic is shaping the reality, with energy from the fade.

You can either conjure that energy through the veil with mental strength (willpower -> mana)
or use canned energy (Lyrium)
or lure something from the other side into the mortal realm, to do the job for you (bloodmagic).

Now, you usually shape that energy with specific formulae, because uncontrolled it's bad. I'd guess that the formulae of fireball and firewall are simply slight tweaks of the same spell, and we only get a slim selection in gameplay, because having fivehundred spells isn't practical.
Think of it, as a language, with different setpieces to build a spellformula.

[Miashi]

Dragon Age seem to focus a lot on the resources needed to produce a spell, unlike other rulesets like D&D where the mental capacity (intelligence) is the primary attribute on a spellcaster's capacities.

General rule seem to say: with enough Lyrium, you can accomplish whatever you can do with blood. Lyrium / blood seem to augment a mage and allow them to accomplish certain things that their innate power wouldn't allow them to do with their mana.

[Miashi]

Lithuasil wrote...
or lure something from the other side into the mortal realm, to do the job for you (bloodmagic).

I tend to disagree with this because I've always had the feeling that blood magic made you an appealing target to demons because it makes you a glowing beacon of magic (pretty much says: "hey everyone, I have this enormous source of magic and I cast shiny spells, look at me")... rather than calling forth demons to do a bidding for you. Some mages employ blood magic without resorting to a demon.

Reason why I think demons are attracted to magic essence rather than blood magic itself is when you read on the Harrowing. The whole ceremony involves a lot of Lyrium, sending someone to the fade and summoning a demon. I'm assuming that mages that summon the demon to the fade for the tested mage are not using blood magic but Lyrium, but I could be wrong.

[Herr Uhl]

Miashi wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
or lure something from the other side into the mortal realm, to do the job for you (bloodmagic).

I tend to disagree with this because I've always had the feeling that blood magic made you an appealing target to demons because it makes you a glowing beacon of magic (pretty much says: "hey everyone, I have this enormous source of magic and I cast shiny spells, look at me")... rather than calling forth demons to do a bidding for you. Some mages employ blood magic without resorting to a demon.

Reason why I think demons are attracted to magic essence rather than blood magic itself is when you read on the Harrowing. The whole ceremony involves a lot of Lyrium, sending someone to the fade and summoning a demon. I'm assuming that mages that summon the demon to the fade for the tested mage are not using blood magic but Lyrium, but I could be wrong.

Being awake in the fade is what the lyrium goes to. Someone walking awake in the fade is bound to get attention.

I rather doubt that they had a deal with the pride demon.

[Torax]

The other reason Blood Magic is used by those who seek it could be how Lyrium can slowly warp both the mind and body of it's users. Supposedly the Magisters consumed so much Lyrium that their families couldn't recognize them. Blood Magic doesn't do this though it requires a sacrifice of sorts. Be it your own or of a slave and so on. Lyrium has it's strengths and it's drawbacks for those truly trying to be the strongest in a place like the Imperium.

Modifié par Torax, 05 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
or lure something from the other side into the mortal realm, to do the job for you (bloodmagic).

I tend to disagree with this because I've always had the feeling that blood magic made you an appealing target to demons because it makes you a glowing beacon of magic (pretty much says: "hey everyone, I have this enormous source of magic and I cast shiny spells, look at me")... rather than calling forth demons to do a bidding for you. Some mages employ blood magic without resorting to a demon.

Reason why I think demons are attracted to magic essence rather than blood magic itself is when you read on the Harrowing. The whole ceremony involves a lot of Lyrium, sending someone to the fade and summoning a demon. I'm assuming that mages that summon the demon to the fade for the tested mage are not using blood magic but Lyrium, but I could be wrong.

It's just my personal theory - but if blood was simply a much more potent lyrium substitute, people would regard it as dangerous maybe, but not outright evil. There'd be experiments with animal blood, it'd be used as a legal last resort in battle, etc.

Imho, since all creatures from the fade try to get into the mortal realm, what bloodmagic does, is laying out a lure of mana-infused blood, to trick some demon into *thinking* he'd get to possess something, and then force him to channel his power through the very limited vessel of the blood. Would explain why it needs to be fresh (we never see someone using blood from a vial), and would explain why it's deemed so evil. 

[Miashi]

Torax wrote...

The other reason Blood Magic is used by those who seek it could be how Lyrium can slowly warp both the mind and body of it's users. Supposedly the Magisters consumed so much Lyrium that their families couldn't recognize them. Blood Magic doesn't do this though it requires a sacrifice of sorts. Be it your own or of a slave and so on. Lyrium has it's strengths and it's drawbacks for those truly trying to be the strongest in a place like the Imperium.

You can also say the same about blood mages though - the ones that extensively use blood magic turn psycho or become possessed.

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

Imho, since all creatures from the fade try to get into the mortal realm

Valor and Justice disagree with you.

Anyways, I think that magic period would attract demons and spirits as what mages do is akin to their own abilities. Forming the world around them by thought. More powerful mage - closer to original abilities.

[Miashi]

Lithuasil wrote...
It's just my personal theory - but if blood was simply a much more potent lyrium substitute, people would regard it as dangerous maybe, but not outright evil. There'd be experiments with animal blood, it'd be used as a legal last resort in battle, etc.

To be fair, though, blood magic wasn't (or at least didn't seem to be) branded as evil in ancient times. It's the first magic that was discovered, it is powerful, and its reckless use is what brought the blights (but hey, Tenvinter mages also used Lyrium!). I think of it a little like nuclear power: when anyone thinks nuclear, first thing to come to their mind are bombs, but it's also used in medical science, to power cities, etc...

I don't think that blood magic is inherently evil, but using it carelessly makes you a target. As I said, I could be wrong though.

[Miashi]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Imho, since all creatures from the fade try to get into the mortal realm

Valor and Justice disagree with you.

Anyways, I think that magic period would attract demons and spirits as what mages do is akin to their own abilities. Forming the world around them by thought. More powerful mage - closer to original abilities.

Don't forget how often we are reminded in both games that no mage is safe from demons, regardless if they touch blood magic or not.

[Torax]

Miashi wrote...

Torax wrote...

The other reason Blood Magic is used by those who seek it could be how Lyrium can slowly warp both the mind and body of it's users. Supposedly the Magisters consumed so much Lyrium that their families couldn't recognize them. Blood Magic doesn't do this though it requires a sacrifice of sorts. Be it your own or of a slave and so on. Lyrium has it's strengths and it's drawbacks for those truly trying to be the strongest in a place like the Imperium.

You can also say the same about blood mages though - the ones that extensively use blood magic turn psycho or become possessed.

Point being the Lyrium they use is not just a nice little potion here or there. It warped their physical bodies cause of the amounts and types of dosages they used. Anything to achieve success. In regards to becoming abominations. I don't know how often that is in the Imperium. Keep in mind they are not the circle and they have studies on magic, including spirits and demons that dates through 8000 years ago I'm sure. Since they took all the Elven knowledge they could when they conquered them.

The first dreamers even learned about Lyrium and the fade from Elven Captives, those dreamers became the first Magisters. Long before there was ever something called the Chantry. Their understanding of magic, the fade and so on is deeper than any others alive save probably Flemeth and some others who maybe as old or older than even the Imperium.

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Imho, since all creatures from the fade try to get into the mortal realm

Valor and Justice disagree with you.

Anyways, I think that magic period would attract demons and spirits as what mages do is akin to their own abilities. Forming the world around them by thought. More powerful mage - closer to original abilities.

Well, all demons want to, anyway. (According to any demon we ever spoke to, and according to the official story of how demons were made at least).
Sure magic attracts demons anyway - but there's a difference between doing something that might attract the cannibals attention, and inviting him over to dinner (i.e normal magic / my take on blood magic)

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Valor and Justice disagree with you.

Anyways, I think that magic period would attract demons and spirits as what mages do is akin to their own abilities. Forming the world around them by thought. More powerful mage - closer to original abilities.

Well, all demons want to, anyway. (According to any demon we ever spoke to, and according to the official story of how demons were made at least).
Sure magic attracts demons anyway - but there's a difference between doing something that might attract the cannibals attention, and inviting him over to dinner (i.e normal magic / my take on blood magic)

Considering that demons know blood magic, it might be that blood mages are more aligned. I'd consider possession itself a kind of blood magic.

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...


It's just my personal theory - but if blood was simply a much more potent lyrium substitute, people would regard it as dangerous maybe, but not outright evil. There'd be experiments with animal blood, it'd be used as a legal last resort in battle, etc.

Imho, since all creatures from the fade try to get into the mortal realm, what bloodmagic does, is laying out a lure of mana-infused blood, to trick some demon into *thinking* he'd get to possess something, and then force him to channel his power through the very limited vessel of the blood. Would explain why it needs to be fresh (we never see someone using blood from a vial), and would explain why it's deemed so evil. 

Blood Magic
"In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of
the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice
of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This
life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices.
It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very
own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas
now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination.
While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption. ... 
Indeed, the Chantry seems almost irrational in its fear of blood magic;
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and ignoring more
immediate or severe threats"

I also think there is an entry somehwere stating how blood magic used to be thought of as an "enhancer" for other schools of magic, until the mind control aspect was discovered.

Additionally, "lakes of blood" kind of refutes the idea that the blood needs to be fresh, as does the march of slaves it took to supposedly open up the fade.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Blood magic is portrayed... inconsistently. The tooltip description of the Blood Mage spec in DA2 states that it's purely tied to the physical, and not subordinate to demons or the Fade; yet Merrill clearly summons a spirit with blood magic when you first meet her, when she dispels the barrier on Sundermount. So I'm really not sure just how related it is to spirits and demons. I'm not sure BioWare's sure, either.

[Miashi]

NoteworthyFellow wrote...

Blood magic is portrayed... inconsistently. The tooltip description of the Blood Mage spec in DA2 states that it's purely tied to the physical, and not subordinate to demons or the Fade; yet Merrill clearly summons a spirit with blood magic when you first meet her, when she dispels the barrier on Sundermount. So I'm really not sure just how related it is to spirits and demons. I'm not sure BioWare's sure, either.

Well if you base Merrill's action off the codex entry, my understanding would be that she learned blood magic off the demon that wants her to rebuild the mirror. 

I'm not certain if I missed something, but nothing really proves that Merrill was summoning a demon on your first encounter with her (she's casting something, but it could be anything, really).

[Torax]

A mage in the group be it Hawke or someone else will say they sensed something being summoned. Merrill admits to summoning the spirit. "It helped didn't it?"

Edited to add.

Having to summon said spirit which Merrill seems to concede to being a demon, might have been due to the type of magical barrier that was there. It was just a plot device to get players to learn "Oh she's one of those..."

Modifié par Torax, 05 avril 2011 - 04:11 .

[Herr Uhl]

Miashi wrote...

I'm not certain if I missed something, but nothing really proves that Merrill was summoning a demon on your first encounter with her (she's casting something, but it could be anything, really).

That you can call her out on it and that she doesn't deny it is proof to me.

[Miashi]

You guys are right. It can still somewhat be consistent if we assume that Merrill's blood magic knowledge is from a demon I guess.

[blothulfur]

The Saarebas have been studied by the Ashkaari and their powers catalogued in Par Vollen and these are the logical conclusions we have come to: Magic is the act of shaping reality to ones will, the unfortunates born with this ability seem to also have an afinity with lyrium a mineral that is beyond our reckoning.

Blood magic is the magic of spirits and the soul, in the absence of flesh and material forms in their native realm the powers of the fade controlled and shaped their surroundings with their mind and soul and thus blood magic can also control the very minds of the material beings who are subjected to its powers.

Blood is prized by demons as the sweetest of morsels but it is not the simple liquid that is pumped through our veins that they hunger for but the soulstream which courses through our minds and out into the beyond, learn of blood magic from a demon and you are letting it taste of your soul and the soul of all that you take blood from.

Lyrium is the opposite, it is the very essence of the fade somehow intruded onto the mortal realm and capable of altering reality in its presence and beyond. Are the unfortunates cursed with magic somehow tainted by lyrium in their bloodline or is the massive pollution wrought by this mineral capable of warping children in the womb, that is a subject still being researched and argued.

It can be surmised however that at some point in the past the fade intruded upon the material world or vice versa and the veil was sundered leaving both realms contaminated with alien residue and knowledge of their neighbour. Can this pollution be undone or the powers it creates leashed to the Qun? That is the question we now ask and study.

[Danjaru]

Dragon age falls in the latter. You control elements and powers to different degrees.

Most evident in the Mage Origin where you see some apprentices training their skills and the instructor talks about how they're focusing their energy wrong and he was holding back on his attacks or they'd get obliterated... Or something along those lines.