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[RobRam10]

Oh god how I love when characters say that the big threat is coming to them GO STANNIS!!
Somehow I knew the outcome of the Lannister cousin and Jaime.
Loved Jaime and Catelyn conversation and the ending the soundtrack plus Theon's reaction were perfect!

Modifié par RobRam10, 14 mai 2012 - 05:50 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

I can't even pin Theon's character. From how he's been represented in the tv series, he can only have multiple personality disorder. Perhaps his sick streak was better foreshadowed in the books.

And just to confirm, that actually is Bran and Ricon right?

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 14 mai 2012 - 06:08 .

[Brockololly]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I can't even pin Theon's character. From how he's been represented in the tv series, he can only have multiple personality disorder. Perhaps his sick streak was better foreshadowed in the books.

Its peer pressure. Theon wants to be in the good graces of his biological family since he was always just a hostage to the Starks and other Northmen. He had no real future there. So he's trying his best to be what he thinks his father would see as the ideal Ironborne so he can one day become King of the Iron Islands. And he sees that by taking over not just dinky fishing villages but by one upping his sister and taking Winterfell. Problem is, he has no clue now how to retain Winterfell beyond just again, basically giving into peer pressure of guys like Dagmer who seem to only respond via violence. And so Theon is trying to rule with violence, hence making examples of Bran and Rickon.

There is one character absent from the show who makes some of Theon's harsh rule of Winterfell more understandable though.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
And just to confirm, that actually is Bran and Ricon right?

Yup.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Brockololly wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I can't even pin Theon's character. From how he's been represented in the tv series, he can only have multiple personality disorder. Perhaps his sick streak was better foreshadowed in the books.

Its peer pressure. Theon wants to be in the good graces of his biological family since he was always just a hostage to the Starks and other Northmen. He had no real future there. So he's trying his best to be what he thinks his father would see as the ideal Ironborne so he can one day become King of the Iron Islands. And he sees that by taking over not just dinky fishing villages but by one upping his sister and taking Winterfell. Problem is, he has no clue now how to retain Winterfell beyond just again, basically giving into peer pressure of guys like Dagmer who seem to only respond via violence. And so Theon is trying to rule with violence, hence making examples of Bran and Rickon.

There is one character absent from the show who makes some of Theon's harsh rule of Winterfell more understandable though.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
And just to confirm, that actually is Bran and Ricon right?

Yup.

This resentment of his "hostage takers" was never even hinted at in the first season. I thought he was going to be at Rob's side after he swore loyalty to him in the "King of the North" scene. If Theon felt like a hostage and had deluded dreams of grandeur by any means necessary, it should've been further detailed upon; not left to halfway through season 2. I just feel his character "growth" was very poorly done, at least in the tv series.

[Addai]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

This resentment of his "hostage takers" was never even hinted at in the first season. I thought he was going to be at Rob's side after he swore loyalty to him in the "King of the North" scene. If Theon felt like a hostage and had deluded dreams of grandeur by any means necessary, it should've been further detailed upon; not left to halfway through season 2. I just feel his character "growth" was very poorly done, at least in the tv series.

They did, but it was subtle.  His jaw would clench anytime someone would remind him that he wasn't really a Stark but a captive.  His speech to Robb "I know I'm not a Stark..." kind of telegraphed it.  Of course, I knew what was coming so I knew what to look for.  But really I don't think Theon knew himself until he got to Pyke and found no welcome home.

[ObserverStatus]

FAKE, those burned bodies could have been anyone's kids, I knew that Theon wasn't really so bad. If he was really so bad, he would have burned the real Stark kids in front of Winterfell's citizens. He just had to kill some peasant brats to keep his image intact.

Modifié par bobobo878, 14 mai 2012 - 07:19 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

bobobo878 wrote...
FAKE, those burned bodies could have been anyone's kids, I knew that Theon wasn't really so bad. If he was really so bad, he would have burned the real Stark kids in front of Winterfell's citizens. He just had to kill some peasant brats to keep his image intact.

Agreed. I can tell they're photoshopped.

If he caught the actual Starks, I doubt he would have killed them. He's a bit smarter than that, and perhaps not that much of a scumbag.

[ObserverStatus]

ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
FAKE, those burned bodies could have been anyone's kids, I knew that Theon wasn't really so bad. If he was really so bad, he would have burned the real Stark kids in front of Winterfell's citizens. He just had to kill some peasant brats to keep his image intact.

Agreed. I can tell they're photoshopped.

If he caught the actual Starks, I doubt he would have killed them. He's a bit smarter than that, and perhaps not that much of a scumbag.

IKR?  Some 16 year old could have 'shopped those burned corpses with a single core processor and a 32 bit OS.

[Gibb_Shepard]

ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
FAKE, those burned bodies could have been anyone's kids, I knew that Theon wasn't really so bad. If he was really so bad, he would have burned the real Stark kids in front of Winterfell's citizens. He just had to kill some peasant brats to keep his image intact.

Agreed. I can tell they're photoshopped.

If he caught the actual Starks, I doubt he would have killed them. He's a bit smarter than that, and perhaps not that much of a scumbag.

Well apparently in the books he does kill them. So unless the writers are deciding to have an alternate reality within their series, that actually was bran and ricon.

Plus, the new and improved Theon is NOT smart. He's completely deluded and will do whatever it takes to enhance his "image". He's a ****ing nut job with absolutely no mind for strategy.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 14 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Well apparently in the books he does kill them. So unless the writers are deciding to have an alternate reality within their series, that actually was bran and ricon.

Plus, the new and improved Theon is NOT smart. He's completely deluded and will do whatever it takes to enhance his "image". He's a ****ing nut job with absolutely no mind for strategy.

Well if that's really them, Theon just jumped up like five ranks on the scumbag scale to the same level as Joffery. That's an impressive feat.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well apparently in the books he does kill them. So unless the writers are deciding to have an alternate reality within their series, that actually was bran and ricon.

Those were not Bran and Rickon. In the books it's different but they do survive.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[Aerevane]

In the preview of next week's episode it's suggested Theon´s family doesn´t really approve of his actions. *grabs popcorn and waits for a week*

[Gibb_Shepard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well apparently in the books he does kill them. So unless the writers are deciding to have an alternate reality within their series, that actually was bran and ricon.

Those were not Bran and Rickon. In the books it's different but they do survive.

So they don't die in Clash of Kings? I'm getting conflicting info here...

[Costin_Razvan]

Have you read Clash of Kings?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Have you read Clash of Kings?

No. But if they do die in Clash of Kings, then you can be sure that was Bran and Ricon burned. TV adaptations often change circumstances in order to fit within the narrow time slot they have for the show. If they died under other cirumstances in thebook, can you imagine how that would be translated into the series? Leaving us with the belief that Bran and RIckon are dead, but then suddenly finding out they're alive in the next episode, only to witness their deaths in the following episode. It's be akin to Ned miraculously escaping his execution only to have him killed by a stray Lannister guard on his way back to Winterfell a day later.

If they don't die in the book, then evidently i have been misinformed and that obviously was not them.

[GodWood]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
So they don't die in Clash of Kings? I'm getting conflicting info here...

[spoilers]


You're lead to believe they're dead but you eventually find out they're alive. Brock was just trying to keep the mystery alive for you.





[/spoilers]

[Gibb_Shepard]

I'm actually a bit disappointed now. I thought it was another Ned Stark moment, where a seemingly untouchable character ends up dieing.

[twincast]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Ok... I need to vent a little about tonight's episode. Episode spoilers below.

---------------------

It was very fun to watch.. BUT.... What the hell are they doing exactly?

No idea. I really enjoyed the scenes with the character Lena Headey portrays, whoever that's supposed to be.
At least unlike last week's retarded abomination of a plot Harrenhal was great to watch again this time.

AxisEvolve wrote...

Jamie killing Alton? First of all, he's a morally grey character in the books. Now all of a sudden they're painting him as a pure villain. Great... Second, isn't Alton supposed to be Cleos Frey? Uhh.. that didn't happen to him in ASOIAF. I guess they figured he wasn't important enough. What a missed opportunity. I loved his banter with Jamie in the books.

I liked how they achieved the necessary Karstark casualty, but the other murder's simply OOC. *sigh* Frankly I would have prefered Ducksauce to get beaten into a pulp.

AxisEvolve wrote...

What is going on in the Jon arc? I'm pretty sure this wasn't how things went down. I'm starting to doubt if the Halfhand scene (you know the one..) will even occur now.

Ygritte's awesome, but so far it's definitely a lesser way to achieve the same eventual outcome and I too am worried whether we'll even get to see that scene.

AxisEvolve wrote...

As for the Bran/Hodor/Rickon/ect. arc..... at first I thought they changed it, but if my memory serves correct that part of the story was supposed to give many impressions that ended up being false. So maybe it's right, just my hindsight is a bit blurred.

I miss me some Reeds and Reeks, and the cutting of the crypts wasn't well thought through, but all in all this storyline's the only thing left other than OCD that keeps me watching every week.

AxisEvolve wrote...

Daenerys? I've given up wondering what they're doing with her. It would be faster to list the things they haven't changed.

The bad writing, it bores me. *yawn* Quite the shame, I really like the Qarth story in the books.

AxisEvolve wrote...

I feel like in an effort to not confuse the non ASOIAF readers, they have confused the hell out of the people who have read them.

Yeah. To be honest, it's fast becoming tedious to watch. At this rate I can't see myself continuing past the second season finale other than checking out the two big W's of seasons three and four.

[Brockololly]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
This resentment of his "hostage takers" was never even hinted at in the first season. I thought he was going to be at Rob's side after he swore loyalty to him in the "King of the North" scene. If Theon felt like a hostage and had deluded dreams of grandeur by any means necessary, it should've been further detailed upon; not left to halfway through season 2. I just feel his character "growth" was very poorly done, at least in the tv series.

You see it several times in season 1. When he saves Bran from the Wildlings, Robb chastises him for his wrecklessness, when he was probably expecting Robb to praise him. You can tell he has a more harsh side when he's screwing Ros, resenting the fact that Tyrion was with her before, Tyrion being a guy  with money. Or when he's trying to impose his will on Osha, trying to pass himself off as "Lord" because he's the son of Balon Greyjoy, only for Maester Luwin to come in and put him in his place as hostage to the Starks. Or when Tyrion is talking to Theon, basically pressing all of Theon's buttons.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Have you read Clash of Kings?

This is a non-spoiler thread.  Always assume people haven't read the books.

[RedArmyShogun]

Brockololly wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
This resentment of his "hostage takers" was never even hinted at in the first season. I thought he was going to be at Rob's side after he swore loyalty to him in the "King of the North" scene. If Theon felt like a hostage and had deluded dreams of grandeur by any means necessary, it should've been further detailed upon; not left to halfway through season 2. I just feel his character "growth" was very poorly done, at least in the tv series.

You see it several times in season 1. When he saves Bran from the Wildlings, Robb chastises him for his wrecklessness, when he was probably expecting Robb to praise him. You can tell he has a more harsh side when he's screwing Ros, resenting the fact that Tyrion was with her before, Tyrion being a guy  with money. Or when he's trying to impose his will on Osha, trying to pass himself off as "Lord" because he's the son of Balon Greyjoy, only for Maester Luwin to come in and put him in his place as hostage to the Starks. Or when Tyrion is talking to Theon, basically pressing all of Theon's buttons.

@ Gibb, no they survive. Its called lying. I won't spoil it, be sure they arn't dead, I've read all the books that have been released so far. In short unless you see them actully die, never assume anyone in the show is dead. I mean I won't spoil it as I said but in this current chap someone will "die" in the Next he's A-ok. Just someone that looks like him was strung up.

As to Theon, its as Brock points out.

It is hinted at. He is a hostage, he just stares, lets it slide while deep down he hates them. I mean whats he going to do go "Lol Hey Ned I think your son is an ass and not worthy of the throne also I'm happy your boy is a cripple"  If he so much as looked at the kids in a manner of a threat, ned or his wife, it would not only be in the Stark house rights, but rather its duty, to kill him on the spot and then burn the Iron Islands to the ground.

Top it off his people don't trust him, his sister had her way with him, his father could care less about him, and he's frankly not important at all, while of being "rightfully" of important birth. Its no surprised with so much ill will he turned into a snake. Problem is he lost all that as a hostage, and while Ned treated him well, its unlikely he'll have forgotten just where he stood in things.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 14 mai 2012 - 03:18 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

No, i'm sorry, but the fact that you could pick up an underlying resentment from a couple short, vague scenes is really something only one who has read the books can do. You know who he is, and will be far more sensitive to scenes where he may act vaguely (Extremely vaguely) like his later self. For someone who hasn't read the books, Theon's character portrayal was done terribly. Nothing in the first season could lead one to believe that he resents the Starks; except if you've read the books of course.

[Brockololly]

My thoughts on the episode:

• I'm loving Theon's material. He has one of my favorite arcs in the books and its going good in the show. I do think they telegraphed Bran and Rickon getting killed a bit much. And showing Bran and Rickon and company out of Winterfell presumably makes a later scene impossible, one of the more iconic scenes in the series, I'd think.
• Ygritte is awesome and the scenery in Iceland is gorgeous. The main problem is that I really don't like how they're handling Jon's characterization or his plot right now. WIthout going into spoilers, this time should be when he's with Qhorin and his super badass Night's Watch elite special forces commando Rangers, learning from them. Yes, he has some interaction with Ygritte but...eh. The books were just far more exciting and suspenseful with Jon's story at this point, with Jon being with Halfhand, not Ygritte. This is one change I really do not like, as it not only makes Jon look like a total idiot, it also makes Halfhand seem like an incompetent Ranger, if he can't find Jon.
• Tywin and Arya's scenes are great and that opening shot of Harrenhal was wonderful. The extra backstory on Harrenhal's history was good too. But as much as I like Tywin and Arya's interactions, where is this going? I mean, Harrenhal in the books is brutal for Arya. With kind Uncle Tywin around, Arya seems to be getting off pretty easy all told. Starting her off as cupbearer instead of slaving in the kitchens and working her way up to cupbearer kind of takes away from her character development I think. I'm just wondering how they'll resolve this storyline for this season- if they keep veering away from the books or try to make things fit.
• Robb and Talisa? Meh.
• Dany? Meh.
• Cersei is definitely more sympathetic than the book, but I guess I'm ok with that. She really doesn't go totally off the deep end for a while yet. Her scene with Sansa was excellent.
• Jaime killing Alton is a stretch, but I'm ok with it I guess. He has a very weird sense of honor and rules, so he did technically ask Alton permission to kill him. My bigger problem with that scene was how I thought they'd make a bigger deal of his escape attempt. I remember the showrunners saying how they'd show that since its an offscreen event in the books. But its basically kept offscreen here too. The books made it seem like a bigger, more daring escape too, considering Jaime is in Riverrun as well.
• Robb going to the Crag? Hmmm...
• The Dany stuff is just boring. Surprising, sure to see Pyat Pree and Xaro conspiring together, but I really don't care about Xaro conspiring with Pyat Pree. I don't care about Qarth.
• Cat is great with Brienne. They're both doing a great job. My issue at the end is with what she was doing with Jaime, if its what I think she was doing from the books. That makes very little sense compared to the books. I'll leave that for the book thread I guess.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No, i'm sorry, but the fact that you could pick up an underlying resentment from a couple short, vague  scenes is really something only one who has read the books can do. You  know who he is, and will be far more sensitive to scenes where he may  act vaguely (Extremely vaguely) like his later self. For someone who  hasn't read the books, Theon's character portrayal was done terribly.  Nothing in the first season could lead one to believe that he resents the Starks; except if you've read the books of course.

The books really don't provide any more clarity. If anything its more sudden in the books. Its not that Theon resents the Starks personally, he resents being put into the situation he's been placed in as a hostage or ward without any say. He wants to reclaim what he thinks is his birthright in the Iron Islands. I thought the letter burning scene this season (which isn't in the books) summed up his feelings pretty well. He's a deeply conflicted person, really conflicted to the core. He's a guy with major identity issues.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[ObserverStatus]

GodWood wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
So they don't die in Clash of Kings? I'm getting conflicting info here...

[spoilers]
You're lead to believe they're dead but you eventually find out they're alive. Brock was just trying to keep the mystery alive for you.
[/spoilers]

See? I knew it!  Theon really does still love them.  He's cold on the exterior, but deep down ya'know he's a good man. his name is Theon Greyjoy.

[Addai]

bobobo878 wrote...
See? I knew it!  Theon really does still love them.  He's cold on the exterior, but deep down ya'know he's a good man. his name is Theon Greyjoy.

  Keep in mind that no matter who they actually are, those are two real dead children's bodies.