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[Tirigon]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Aerevane wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Kinda funny how much trouble Theon Greyjoy and Jon Snow have been getting in for thinking with their dicks lately. If this pattern keeps repeating, Robb Stark had best stay away from that doctor lady.

Well... didn't Cat warn him about the promise she made to that dirty 'ol Lord at the castle about him marrying one of his daughters? It's already explicitly set up as a big warning sign flashing: do not penetrate!

"Sorry Robb, you can't  marry the cute doctor lady, I already promised you to the daughter of that toll bridge keeper so he'd let us cross."

lol I always thought that was funny. I mean the guy was a creep. No way in hell I'ld make any deals with him. Bridge or No bridge.

When they made that deal, I thought Robb was a f*cking idiot.

Had I been in his place, I would have agreed to the deal to get access to the castle - and once I was in I would have had my army slaughter all Frey's guards and put his head, as well as those of his entire brood, on spikes to show everyone what happens to traitors.

[Costin_Razvan]

Thing is that Lord Frey gave Robb 5.000 men ( or 4.000 ) in exchange for that marriage. It would have been dumb of Robb to kill him.

[Brockololly]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
LPPrince: Something done purely for sensationalism or shock value is I feel pissing on everything Song of Ice and Fire is, and that's how I view the scene with Joffrey.

My biggest issue with certain scenes like that is that yes, they're purely being played for shock value really, but more so that with only 10 episodes and so many characters, thats time that could have been better spent elsewhere. Yes, everyone knows Joffrey is screwed up.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Addai: I seriously hope that whatever they do they do not **** up Blackwater. The ONE THING they've done right so far is Tyrion. I'm going to curse quite loudly if they **** him up.

I feel like they could have been doing more with Tyrion and the defense of the city. They haven't mentioned the Chain yet, which is one of his major accomplishments in the book. I guess they can still do that next episode though. I hope Blackwater is good, considering George RR Martin wrote that episode himself.

[LPPrince]

Can't wait for Blackwater.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Thing is that Lord Frey gave Robb 5.000 men ( or 4.000 ) in exchange for that marriage. It would have been dumb of Robb to kill him.

Well in the books at least not doing so eventually proves a mistake.....

Anyways, these 4000 men could have been had otherwise; let them show their loyalty to the King thather than their traitorous liege lord.

And Robb killed the Lord of Karstark for less than what Frey did....

[LPPrince]

Unless Robb planned to swim his army across(not possible)...

[Costin_Razvan]

Well in the books at least not doing so eventually proves a mistake.....

After he decided the deal he made with Lord Frey was worthless to him? So much for the honorable Lord Robb.

And Lord Frey's lands are not in the north. He does not owe allegiance to Robb.

[twincast]

Tirigon wrote...

It certainly is like that in the novel, at least.

...you should reread it.

Tirigon wrote...

When they made that deal, I thought Robb was a f*cking idiot.

Had
I been in his place, I would have agreed to the deal to get access to
the castle - and once I was in I would have had my army slaughter all
Frey's guards and put his head, as well as those of his entire brood, on
spikes to show everyone what happens to traitors.

What the...? That would be utterly stupid on several levels.

Tirigon wrote...

Well in the books at least not doing so eventually proves a mistake.....

Anyways,
these 4000 men could have been had otherwise; let them show their
loyalty to the King thather than their traitorous liege lord.

And Robb killed the Lord of Karstark for less than what Frey did....

Robb makes hardly anything but mistakes off the battlefield, but no matter the consequences, not murdering a then neutral lord in cold blood is not one of them.

Robb hadn't been proclaimed King in the North (and of the Riverlands) yet, so Frey, a Tully bannerman, owed him no alliegance whatsoever. That's medieval politics for you.

Not by a long shot.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well in the books at least not doing so eventually proves a mistake.....

After he decided the deal he made with Lord Frey was worthless to him? So much for the honorable Lord Robb.

And Lord Frey's lands are not in the north. He does not owe allegiance to Robb.

I never said he was honorable, I said he was stupid.

And Frey does indeed owe allegiance to Robb. He is king in the north AND THE RIVERLANDS. With Tully being sworn to Robb, so is Frey as a Tully bannerman.

twincast wrote...
...you should reread it.

I believe you should.

What the...? That would be utterly stupid on several levels.

Explain why?

Robb makes hardly anything but mistakes off the battlefield, but
no matter the consequences, not murdering a then neutral lord in cold
blood is not one of them.

A neutral lord who outright threathens to ally with the Lannisters, should they offer a better deal, and stands in his way. The way I see it, making Frey a terrifiying example of what happens to Lannister allies would have been more useful than have him alive.

Robb hadn't been proclaimed King in the North (and of the
Riverlands) yet, so Frey, a Tully bannerman, owed him no alliegance
whatsoever. That's medieval politics for you.

Not by a long shot.

Was the crossing before or after he was named king? I admit I am unsure, but it doesnt matter much:
- If Robb was king, Frey is a traitor and he should punish him
- If Robb is not king yet but an invader, Frey is an enemy in his way and he can do whatever he wants, anyways.

[LPPrince]

Robb attacking the Freys just so he can cross the river would've been an infinitely horrendous battle strategy.

He'd lose some of the men he had and lose a very powerful ally.

Fact is, Frey had what Robb wanted, so Robb had to trade to get it. He did, and he got what he wanted.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Robb attacking the Freys just so he can cross the river would've been an infinitely horrendous battle strategy.

He'd lose some of the men he had and lose a very powerful ally.

Fact is, Frey had what Robb wanted, so Robb had to trade to get it. He did, and he got what he wanted.

Of course. But there is no reason not to kill him afterwards. Once he is in the castle it would have been easy.

[LPPrince]

His people would never trust him if he betrayed the Freys by killing them.

That and it wasn't how Robb was raised. Ned's values are Robb's values.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

His people would never trust him if he betrayed the Freys by killing them.

That and it wasn't how Robb was raised. Ned's values are Robb's values.

Indeed, that is kind of the problem throughout the entire story.

But why should his people not trust him? Frey is a treacherous, disgusting bastard, as everyone knows.
And quite honestly, I dont even understand why Frey was still alive at the point during the story. He should have been killed or at least sent away to the Night's Watch after the Trident, already, when he showed his face as a person who only cares for his own advantage and is not trustworthy at all.

[Seagloom]

Because killing lord Frey would have shown Robb is also a treacherous bastard. He can't walk the high and low roads simultaneously.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2012 - 10:58 .

[LPPrince]

Had Robb killed Walder Frey, he would've been no better than he was.

You say that Frey is a disgusting treacherous bastard- well, that's what Robb would become in the eyes of many.

If you can't trust your leader, there's a problem.

Robb had two options if we simplify it to whether or not he killed Frey-

Kill him- Lose the trust of his people, lose some of his people, lose a valuable ally in the war, but not have to deal with the Freys ever again.

Acquiesce to Frey's requests- Keep the trust of his people, keep all his people alive, gain a valuable ally in the war, and have to marry one of Frey's daughters(a daughter of Robb's choice).

I know what choice I'd take. I'd hate being forced into a marriage as much as anyone, but the costs of the other choice are too great.

Its selfishness vs selflessness.

Modifié par LPPrince, 15 mai 2012 - 10:58 .

[LPPrince]

Seagloom wrote...

Because killing lord Frey would have shown Robb is also a treacherous bastard. He can't walk the high and low roads simultaneously.

And remember- the high road is usually the tougher one to take.

[Seagloom]

More so in Westeros and the Free Cities than elsewhere too. Tyrion and Dany are having as jolly a time of it as Robb. It must be nice being like Littlefinger. None of those messy high-minded intentions to get in one's way.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2012 - 11:04 .

[LPPrince]

Knowing what comes later with Littlefinger...hahahaha. Oh man.

[Tirigon]

You keep talking about Frey as a "valuable ally". I disagree with that.
Keep in mind, we are talking about the man who was in theory fighting for Robert at the Trident, but in reality only showed up once the battle was won, so he could stand on the victor's side.
If I was a rebellious lord marching against the crowned king, I would not exactly want to rely on that kind of person. Chances are, the guy will act just like then again.
(And of course, the sad irony is that certain events in A Storm of Swords prove my prejudices against Frey right..)


@Seagloom: You cant go to war and be the good guy simultaneously. If you arent ready to kill your opponent, dont start to fight.
The failure to realize that is Robb's greatest weakness, in my opinion.

[LPPrince]

That implies killing your opponent makes you the bad guy.

If that's the case, everyone's the bad guy and there's never been a good guy in the first place.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

That implies killing your opponent makes you the bad guy.

You imply that.
In my personal opinion, killing Frey wouldnt make Robb "bad" at all, but you and Seagloom disagreed with that.

[LPPrince]

Well, you're saying you want Robb to do what Frey would do.

If Frey's a disgusting treacherous bastard, that makes me think you'd agree with us.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Well, you're saying you want Robb to do what Frey would do.

If Frey's a disgusting treacherous bastard, that makes me think you'd agree with us.

That depends if you judge based on actions or intentions.

If you do the first, then yes, you are right.

However, I do the latter.

[LPPrince]

In war, intentions are worthless.

Action is what wins wars. Its what you did that matters, what you did that gets immortalized, not why you did it.

If wars were won on intentions, ha. How different our own world would be.

[Seagloom]

@Tirigon

There is a difference between being good and being honorable. You can be the scum of the Earth and still be honorable. There are even characters that roughly fit that mold in this story.

Putting aside the ethical aspect entirely for a moment, storming the Twins after crossing it would have been a monumental tactical blunder anyway. Robb needed to cross speedily in order to save Riverrun from Jaime's host. He also had Tywin's host marching up to meet him simultaneously.

Stopping to make sure Lord Frey was dead would have cost him thousands of footmen and horse, allowed Tywin to march upon him during the chaos, and doomed Riverrun and the Tullys.

Robb had the element of surprise and overwhelming force in his victories. His war effort would have been crushed in the first battle under your proposed scenario.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2012 - 11:23 .