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[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

In war, intentions are worthless.

Action is what wins wars. Its what you did that matters, what you did that gets immortalized, not why you did it.

If wars were won on intentions, ha. How different our own world would be.

And that is precisely why taking the moral high ground, the way Robb did, is stupid.

Somehow you have started to argue for my point here

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[Tirigon]

@ Seagloom: No you dont understand what I meant.

I am NOT talking about facing Frey in battle, loosing thousands of men.

I am talking about marching off with the army (like he did), leaving a few 100 men behind as guards (like he did) and THEN have these guards dispose of Frey, with his footsoldiers none the wiser.

While not exactly honorable, I dont see the harm in that. Everyone is better off without that guy.
Having a potential traitor in your back, holding the only way back towards home, seems like a doomsday strategy right there, I would rather slight my honor with murder than suffer this risk in my back.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:27 .

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

In war, intentions are worthless.

Action is what wins wars. Its what you did that matters, what you did that gets immortalized, not why you did it.

If wars were won on intentions, ha. How different our own world would be.

And that is precisely why taking the moral high ground, the way Robb did, is stupid.

Somehow you have started to argue for my point here

Seeing how much of a loss Robb would take for his war efforts, I can't see how.

Killing Frey may remove a future enemy/problem/total scumbag, but the fact is, he's useful as hell to Robb.

Had Robb killed him, he'd of regretted it when he realized he lost thousands of potential men on his side.

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Seagloom: No you dont understand what I meant.

I am NOT talking about facing Frey in battle, loosing thousands of men.

I am talking about marching off with the army (like he did), leaving a few 100 men behind as guards (like he did) and THEN have these guards dispose of Frey, with his footsoldiers none the wiser.

You should clarify that next time.

Though even that would be a horrible decision, because at some point Frey's men WILL find out.

Even worse than not having thousands of men is having thousands of men on your side SWITCH sides.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Seeing how much of a loss Robb would take for his war efforts, I can't see how.

Killing Frey may remove a future enemy/problem/total scumbag, but the fact is, he's useful as hell to Robb.

Had Robb killed him, he'd of regretted it when he realized he lost thousands of potential men on his side.

But why so?

What Robb needs is Frey's army, not Frey himself. The way medieval society works, and Frey being too old to leave his castle, chances are 99% of the footsoldiers have never seen their lord anyways, nor the insides of his castle.

Why should they care about a new lord on top, if they need to know it at all?


Edit @ above: I thought I was clear enough, if that was not so I apologize.
But I dont think these men would switch sides even if they found out. For one thing, what I already wrote here.

And then, it is basic psychology: They wont switch sides for the same reason there were hardly any rebellions against the lords.

All 5000 men together, are more than powerful enough to rebel and do their own thing. An individual soldier, however, is not. Without coordination, they wont know whom to trust and who to rely on. And how should they switch sides then? Without a lord to command them, they dont have dealings with the enemy. The Lannisters would kill or capture them anyways because, to them, they are still foes.

Once battle has started, they have no choice but to keep doin their duty. That is the sad reality of being a soldier.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[Seagloom]

@Tirigon

Wow. Okay. I'm going to ignore the part where that's exactly the sort of thing Walder Frey might do. XD Instead I'll note Robb's few hundred men may not be enough depending on their access to Frey's keep. Were they allowed entry? Were they camped outside? I don't recall that ever being made clear. It could either work or turn into a massacre.

The other problem is the men marching with Robb would find out eventually, even if it worked; and they would probably be livid. All it would take is sending a raven to the right person to deliver a message to the Freys.

I dunno... it just seems too chancy and petty to play that sort of game in the middle of a war.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2012 - 11:32 .

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

chances are 99% of the footsoldiers have never seen their lord anyways, nor the insides of his castle.

Assumptions can get you killed.

Tirigon wrote...

Why should they care about a new lord on top, if they need to know it at all?

Again- trust.

Lets say Robb has Walder Frey killed while Walder's men are part of Robb's army.

Instant reaction when they find out-

We're next.

And THAT assumption will get a lot of people killed.

Modifié par LPPrince, 15 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[Tirigon]

@ Seagloom:
I call it "beating them with their own weapons".

LPPrince wrote...

Assumptions can get you killed.

True. but so can trusting Freys
War in general has the habit of putting you at risk of dying.

And history of Westeros kind of proves my strategy working - just look at Renly's lords instantly switching to Stannis, and then switching back when THAT seems the better course. The footsoldiers just follow their wishes, and likely dont even have much of an idea what is going on

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

The Lannisters would kill or capture them anyways because, to them, they are still foes.

There's another assumption. Remember-

"A Lannister always pays their debts."

I'm going to go ahead and assume(I could be wrong, here) that they'll remember that Lannister quote and flip.

Robb killed their leader, so who's to say he won't kill them next? They could betray Robb and his forces, aiding the Lannisters AND get rewarded for it. Why not?

Tirigon wrote...

Once battle has started, they have no choice but to keep doin their duty. That is the sad reality of being a soldier.

There's ALWAYS a choice.

[Seagloom]

@Tirigon

I wrote "the kind of thing Frey would do" to avoid spoilers. In a non-spoiler thread. Because we don't post book spoilers of future developments here. Hint hint. Although at this stage the entire conversation is spoiler enough.

In any case there's a fundamental disagreement we're never going to reconcile here so future discussion on the matter is pointless. The way I see it, Robb doing that would undermine the whole concept of his seeking justice in the first place. If Hoster or Edmure Tully didn't bring Walder Frey to task over his actions during Robert's rebellion, Robb doing it now just comes off as vindictive, cruel, and potentially ruinous to his reputation... and for what? If Robb does it to punish Frey for not running to the Tullys' rescue while they are under stage, it is slightly more understandable; but still overreaching his authority and showing a lack of good faith in negotiations. He was not King in the North at the time too. There's no argument I've read that presents turning on the Freys at that time as a good idea.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2012 - 11:50 .

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

There's another assumption. Remember-

"A Lannister always pays their debts."

I'm going to go ahead and assume(I could be wrong, here) that they'll remember that Lannister quote and flip.

Robb killed their leader, so who's to say he won't kill them next? They could betray Robb and his forces, aiding the Lannisters AND get rewarded for it. Why not?

Because we're talking about little soldiers who, to the likes of Tywin Lannister, dont matter as individuals but as numbers indicative of his military strength.  IF they had a chance to make deals with Lannister, then yes they would surely get rewarded. (That's what some lords do.) But they cant do that - can you even IMAGINE Tywin giving them an audience, even if they managed to find a leader and make plans?


And just switching mid-battle wont do the trick - battle is chaos, and their foes will just hack at anything with a wolf on their armor, which includes them.
And then, their is 5000 of them. How big are the chances that they all will decide to switch sides at once? VERY slim - but they would need to, or they will fight each other.

There's ALWAYS a choice.

True, but sometimes it is the choice between possibly dying on the battlefield, or certainly dying as traitors.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:47 .

[LPPrince]

Eh. Discussion is fun. Even if the other side makes completely no sense to either party involved.

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Eh. Discussion is fun. Even if the other side makes completely no sense to either party involved.

And insults like that are a great way to kill the fun.

[Tirigon]

Seagloom wrote...

There's no argument I've read that presents turning on the Freys at that time as a good idea.

I guess there is none, if you trust the likes of Frey.

I dont however, and in war that is more than enough reason to kill them.

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

they have no choice

There's ALWAYS a choice.

True

*head tilt*

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Eh. Discussion is fun. Even if the other side makes completely no sense to either party involved.

And insults like that are a great way to kill the fun.

It wasn't an insult, haha. Its just what happens with discussions- a lot of the time the other side makes no sense to anyone. Whether its me, someone else, a third or fourth party.

[LPPrince]

Tirigon wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

There's no argument I've read that presents turning on the Freys at that time as a good idea.

I guess there is none, if you trust the likes of Frey.

I dont however, and in war that is more than enough reason to kill them.

Even if it means giving your army a much higher chance of failure?

[Tirigon]

LPPrince wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

they have no choice

There's ALWAYS a choice.

True

*head tilt*

Oh god now it is getting ridiculous.

So have your little lesson;

HUMANS ARE BY NATURE GIFTED WITH A FREE WILL.
THIS MEANS, THEY CAN ALWAYS MAKE CHOICES.

HOWEVER, IN SOME SITUATIONS ALL BUT ONE CHOICE CAN BE SO BAD ONLY A MENTALLY DISTURBED PERSON WOULD TAKE THEM.

COMMONLY, THIS IS REFERRED TO AS "NO CHOICE", EVEN THOUGH, ON THE BASIC MEANING OF THE WORD, IT IS ONE.

LPPrince wrote...

It wasn't an insult, haha. Its just what
happens with discussions- a lot of the time the other side makes no
sense to anyone. Whether its me, someone else, a third or fourth party.

But that is not the case here. Just because we disagree with each other, does not mean one of us makes no sense. We both have good points, we just weigh them differently.



@ below: Yes it is. i was just explaining why I consider his choice the wrong one.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 mai 2012 - 11:55 .

[LPPrince]

^Which is exactly why Robb didn't kill Walder Frey.

[RedArmyShogun]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Seagloom:
I call it "beating them with their own weapons".

LPPrince wrote...

Assumptions can get you killed.

True. but so can trusting Freys
War in general has the habit of putting you at risk of dying.

And history of Westeros kind of proves my strategy working - just look at Renly's lords instantly switching to Stannis, and then switching back when THAT seems the better course. The footsoldiers just follow their wishes, and likely dont even have much of an idea what is going on

Pretty much this. And they "loved Renly" guards are thickle when it comes to a dead master.

And LLP well trained soldiers do not have a choice. More so in those times. You had three options.

1 fight. Hopefully not die.

2. Flee, someday be caught and die.

3. Be captured, then hope your an officer or knight as that gets a ransome. And you'll go home. Unless you can't pay, then you die. Normal soldier? You join the other side if they are feeling open to recruitement.

Or you die.

Pretty much depends on luck. As to numbers, back with warfair like that often battles would be fought and won with little loses by being better at moving your forces. In fact in the Acient period some of the greatest battles had relitively little loses. In Fuedal Japan for example, if you could move forces around to range of the commanders position they would pretty much run up the flag (or rather down), admitting defeat and move on breaking off the battle for the day.

[Tirigon]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

As to numbers, back with warfair like that often battles would be fought and won with little loses by being better at moving your forces. In fact in the Acient period some of the greatest battles had relitively little loses. In Fuedal Japan for example, if you could move forces around to range of the commanders position they would pretty much run up the flag (or rather down), admitting defeat and move on breaking off the battle for the day.

Indeed.

Thing is, people usually dont enjoy dying, and most dont even enjoy killing.

That's why, if you remove the reason to fight, aka the lord who forces them to, chances are they wont continue.

[LPPrince]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

1 fight. Hopefully not die.

2. Flee, someday be caught and die.

3. Be captured, then hope your an officer or knight as that gets a ransome. And you'll go home. Unless you can't pay, then you die. Normal soldier? You join the other side if they are feeling open to recruitement.

Or you die.

1. By fight, I assume you mean by Robb's side. Yep, that's a feasible option, if they decide they don't give a damn about Walder Frey and don't assume Robb will gut them as well.

2. By flee, I imagine you mean run from battle regardless. Bad idea, since Robb's people and the Lannisters would be after them(unless the Lannisters decided to offer them something in return for the Frey army joining their side).

3. By be captured, I think you mean by the Lannisters, as being captured by Robb...makes no sense. Anyway, that would likely lead to them joining the Lannister cause, as Tywin is not stupid- he won't turn down more men.

To me, I doubt they'd ever flee. Turn themselves in to the Lannisters? Maybe. Though it seems more likely they'd betray the Starks than fight under their banner when their leader was offed by Robb without their knowledge.

I imagine they'd ESPECIALLY not like it if they found out Walder was killed by some other means, rather than Robb telling them himself.

A leader keeping secrets away from his troops is sensible, but a secret like that seems likely to ****** a lot of people off.

[Tirigon]

^ Actually they could even be caught by Robb if they, as you fear, betray him and he somehow manages to win anyways.

That would be like the worst that could happen, though.



On another note, though: it is stated in the books that Robb has a habit of inspiring loyality. that makes option 1 the most likely one.

[RedArmyShogun]

Meh hardly look at Stannis, he's a jerk to a point and uses all sorts of underhanded tactics. Most of the soldiers then were more of villiage soldiers or sell swords.

They don't give a toss for the most on cause.

Only coin and who's winning.